A recent post has raised an interesting question, let me set up the scenario.

A mature bull elk with a full belly is hard quartering away from you at 200 yards walking after a bunch of cows. You take the shot and your shot placement is PERFECT. The bullet angles up through the vitals.

I think it is safe to say that shooting this animal with a minimum 180gr/.308 caliber kills the elk.
Could the same be said of a 100gr/.243 or 130gr/.270?

Perry

If you shoot him in the neck, a 243 will do fine!

How do you know if his belly is full?

You people are not focusing!

No neck shots and I rubbed it to see if it was full. I'm very stealthy, he never even knew I was there.

Perry

I've killed elk similar to that with an easy quartering shot, i.e. just in front of the guts, and out the opposite shoulder, with 270 Win and a 150gr Nosler Partition. On the hard quarterings shots, I feel much better with a .338 Win mag and a 200-225 gr premium bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by perry:
A recent post has raised an interesting question, let me set up the scenario.

A mature bull elk with a full belly is hard quartering away from you at 200 yards walking after a bunch of cows. You take the shot and your shot placement is PERFECT. The bullet angles up through the vitals.


Could the same be said of a 100gr/.243 or 130gr/.270?

Perry

Yes, dead elk!

i've killed a handful with the 270/130 combo,,
same scenerio.
don't think i would take the shot if i was packing a 243,too far away at the angle you describe.

Depends. Too many variables to consider.

What was the bull eating and how long ago?

Is he quartering left or right or both?

How many cows are in the bunch? Any calves?

What is the brand of rifle and scope? What power was the scope set at?

What position did the hunter use for the shot? Was a guide sitting there holding his hand? Did he get there on horseback, foot or by boat?

quote:

Is he quartering left or right or both? Both, the Bull is chasing his tail


What is the brand of rifle and scope? The rifle is a $5000.00 Weatherby, and the scope is a $20.00 Tasco

What power was the scope set at? It's a fixed, 24x scope.

What position did the hunter use for the shot? Was a guide sitting there holding his hand? Did he get there on horseback, foot or by boat?
It's an offhand shot. Right foot is on his horse, his left foot is on his guides horse.

In addition, it's the 14th day of a 10 day hunt, and neither the hunter nor guide has eaten or slept in the last 72 hours.

quote:

Originally posted by Outdoor Writer:
Depends. Too many variables to consider.

What was the bull eating and how long ago?

Is he quartering left or right or both?

How many cows are in the bunch? Any calves?

What is the brand of rifle and scope? What power was the scope set at?

What position did the hunter use for the shot? Was a guide sitting there holding his hand? Did he get there on horseback, foot or by boat?

"If a train left New York heading to Chicago traveling at..."
"That's a fargin trick question!"

Perry

well because you said my shot was perfect, then the bull would have dropped with any combo you mention because it would have hit his high shoulder spine towards the offside.

I don't own a 243, but I have more than one 270 and I would READILY shoot the bull you describe with a 130 grain bullet of my choice.

Well, at least now we've got the bull walking at 200 yds. If I still hunted with rifles I'd use the old 270 & good bullets & kill that bull, everytime! Did it a number of times with a Ruger #1 in 257 Ackley.
Took this cow last year at a measley 74 yds with a Ruger 41 maggie, the 250 gr cast slug took out both front shoulders & exited, she never took a step. Surely the ft lbs were under 1000!



This is a very nice bull taken with the 257 Ackley & 100 gr Hornadys, distance was perhaps 200 yds, it was in the very early morning & he had slipped out of a wallow & was making his escape. He was broadside & the bullet exited the lungs. Deadly combination!



Another very nice bull, taken with the 44 magnum in the shoulder rig, one shot, complete penetration, maybe 50 yds away.



Cow elk, custom 25/06, again the 100 gr Hornady, maybe 150 yds, one shot.



Calf elk, about 55 yds, Ruger 45 Colt, 325 gr cast slug, complete penetration, you can see the exit hole in the right front shoulder.



Me & one of my son's with a huge bull, custom mauser 257 Ackley, about 140 yds, one shot, 100 gr Hornady.



Cow elk, sometime in the mid 70's, S&W 41 maggie one shot, 230 gr Keith slug, about 75 yds, shot went through the right front shoulder & exited out the left hind quarter, you can see the exit to the right of my shoulder holster.



I can show many, many more but you get the idea.

A decent bull taken by another of my son's using a custom 257 Ackley built by Shane, my gunsmith son (check out the mini mauser in custom rifle section) this was perhaps the finest shot I've ever witnessed, he was 15 years old. The bull was following some cows (running hard) the light was very good but they were in the quakies & the distance was an honest 300 yds, perhaps a little more, one shot using a 100 gr Hornady.
He didn't get to play football that weekend because he had skipped practice to elk hunt with me.



Cow elk, 168 yds, lasered with a witness, Ruger 45 & the 260 gr. Keith softnose cast, one shot, iron sights, complete penetration, not sure what the energy might have been at this distance, bullet placement & penetration!!



Bull moose, 55 yds offhand, Ruger 480 & 370 gr softnose cast, one shot, complete penetration, down in 15 seconds.



Dick

Hey Dick, you look a little younger in some of those pictures!!

Everyone is a trophe, and that includes the cows!

So it looks like the popular opinion is that he 130gr/270 combo gets the job done.

Good responses gentlemen!

Now lets say the elk was one Mike Ditka and the hunter was the 86' NY Giants....

Perry

Is this scenario High Fenced? Is the bull Pre or Post copulation or both? Is the rifle push feed, and modified to hold an extra round? If it is a Mauser, did they screw up the rifle by putting on "cheap" scope mounts? How long is the barrel? Are we talking factory ammo, reloads, or painstakingly babied handloads? Can I use a .243AI? Can we use Moly-coated bullets?

There's really not enough info here to answer.

Hey Dick,

That's a heckuva post! Good Hunting!

I can only wish I have that degree of success in my lifetime.

Dick, I enjoyed the pics! Thank you for sharing. I had a Ruger Super Redhawk in 44 mag but sold it. I took it hunting plenty of times but never got to use it much. I loaded the 300 grain Hornady XTPs over roughly 19 grains of H110 if I recall.

If you don't mind, post more pics!

This bear measured 6' 9", taken with the Ruger 44 maggie, distance was about 75 yds, ranged him once at 105 but he kept feeding towards me. Complete penetration using the Keith 250 gr cast slug, energy would have been below 1000 ft lbs. This is my best of 6 bears.



An enormous color phase black bear (7' 9") bigger than many grizzles taken. My son Shane took it with one shot, custom 280 & 140 Barnes X.



Another nice bear taken by my son Brett, he did use a magnum, 375 Chey-Tac & 300 gr Sierra, distance was lasered at (I think) 404 yds.



One of the most beautiful bears you will ever see, this bear was traveling with a large chocolate phase bear, both of them gave me the slip the day before. Shane Thompson, again using the 280, shot was about 260 yds.



A very large black bear taken by son Travis, using his 30/06 custom, built by Shane. Shot at about 145 yds. All 3 of these bears were taken last year, public land, spot & stalk. We spotted 57 bears in 12 days.



Me with another mature bear, Ruger 44 maggie, Travis & I were hunting together, I called in 2 bears at the same time.



Another photo of my 6' 9" bear, I had been hunting alone for 16 days.



Bull moose, 61 yds using a Ruger 41 maggie & 230 gr softnose cast, one shot, down before we could walk up to him.



Mountain lion, taken at 5 feet (we were sharing the same tree) S&W 357 maggie, 173 gr Keith cast bullet, less than 500 ft lbs of energy.



Still waiting for an elk photo from south Texas, then I'll start on mule deer & African game with under powered sixguns & TC single shots. Several more elk & bear also. Tick, Tick, Tick!

Dick

Dear Dick:

Lots of cool hunting.

So my underpowered 243 Winchester 100 grain bullet kills of whitetail deer here in Pennsylvania is just a fluke with one shot each?

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

Dick,

It looks like there is still smoke coming out of that 15 year old's barrel.

Ed

Tony, good to hear from you, I need to get you some of my cast bullets, I'll be in Bandera in early Decemember if you will be close by, plan on visiting Alan Harton in Houston. Let me know what calibers you need.

Dick

Dick,

Awesome pictures. Thanks for posting them.
Regarding being in the same tree with a cougar, I would classify that as "Sporting"..
Others may have other opinions..LMAO.
Actually, I'd be shitting my knickers if I was in the same tree with a cougar..

Don

Head shot with 223 & 55gr,FMJ!!!!!!!!

Great color phase bears, congrats.

BigB

So heres' another serious question. You hear people say that for whitetail you don't need the premium bullets.
Question: Should you use premium bullets for elk or is standard cup and core sufficient.

Same scenario as earlier, do you take the shot with a 270 if your bullet is standard c&c?

Perry

p.s. I use TSX's on everything but that doesn't mean they are deader.

quote:

Originally posted by perry:
So heres' another serious question. You hear people say that for whitetail you don't need the premium bullets.
Question: Should you use premium bullets for elk or is standard cup and core sufficient.

Same scenario as earlier, do you take the shot with a 270 if your bullet is standard c&c?

Perry

p.s. I use TSX's on everything but that doesn't mean they are deader.

yes I would.

quote:

p.s. I use TSX's on everything but that doesn't mean they are deader.

Well, that depends. It could make the difference between dead, and not dead.....and dead is deader the not dead. It could also make the differnce between dead kind of close to where you shot it, and dead over the next ridge. Now if it a "frying pan" ridge (only way to get the elk out is with a frying pan), you might wish you used a little better bullet.

My personal elk bullets for the .270 Win are the 150gr Nosler Partition, and the 140gr Nosler AB, but the TSX or any decent premium should do you just fine.

The (3) elk I have killed were all with TSX's. One was a head shot with a 257r, one was a neck shot with a 308 and the third was a frontal chest shot with a 7x57. The head and necks dropped straight down. The chest ran at me with blood spewing from his chest, he turned and I put a second shot in his neck which anchored him. From what I have seen on the nilgai the TSX penetrates like crazy, even on big tough animals. I wouldn't hesitate to put either the 7x57 or 308 in to play but would probably hesitate with the Bob. Maybe try for the neck.

Perry

Even though I used Hornady bullets for many years back when I hunted with rifles I think the small added expense of a premium bullet is money well spent, especially for the hunter who has invested a lot of money & vacation time into the hunt.
Of the six elk I took with the 270, 5 were with the 130 Hornady & one was with the 130 Nosler Partition, not a fair test, all of them worked well.
Took 2 with a 338/06 single shot pistol using the Barnes X 185 gr slug, complete penetration, both were spike bulls.
Took 2 with a 308 single shot pistol using the Sierra 135 gr single shot pistol bullet, most Sierra bullets, both rifle & pistol have a reputation for being kind of hard, both were one shot kills, don's remember if they exited or not.
Smallest caliber I ever used was a 6mm, the bull was facing me head on, the 85 gr Sierra hit him at the base of the throat & dropped him in his tracks. I think anything smaller than 25 caliber is too small, yes they will work but its asking a lot.
Premium bullets are worth the money on elk & bigger.

Me & Shane, last year, custom 280 & 140 gr Barnes X, it was a very long shot but I can't remember the exact distance, was in a herd of 25-30 animals right at dark, this photo was taken the next day.



Travis (in the middle) took this bull last year with his 25/06 & 100 gr Hornady's, maybe 175 yds, bull was running through the quakies, son Brett is on the right & one of the grandson's Mason is on the left.



Two Texas whitetails, taken outside of Sonorra, shot the one on the right with my Remington 6mm & 100 gr Hornady (late 60's) the one on the left is missing his right eye, my friend had wounded him the day before with his 264 maggie as the buck faced us. I found him the next day, still alive & worked him up into a draw (arroyo) he had quite a bit of fight in him & kept dropping his head & bluff charging. I found a big piece of mesquite & when he dropped his head & lunged towards me & whacked him in the head (I'm left handed) it knocked his eye out, I jumped him while he was down & finished it with my Puma knife.



Wyoming muley, 2008 (took 11 animals with revolvers that year) he was drinking out of the crick (thats creek for you southern boys) facing me straight on, from the sitting position I hit him center chest at about 92 yds, ranged it after the shot, the cast 41 magnum slug exited just forward of the right hip, it ran 30 yds (maybe 5 seconds) & down.



A very nice Idaho muley, Ruger 357 Maximum, 173 gr Keith softnose cast.



Muley buck, Ruger 357 Maximum, 173 gr Keith, complete penetration, 108 yds kneeling, ranged after the shot.



Dick

Nice shootin' Dick,been wonderin' what Elmer's 170 out of my old .38/44 heavy duty,@1300 fps,his load,, would handle,,it seems to do well out of your .357!!!.You keep mentioning elk from south Texas,,I know they got ;em out in west Texas,Kermit I think,,the XX ranch I believe,,it's like the southern rockies in new mex.Great photos!!

Panzer, I've been in a little 1st grade squabble with a forum member from south Texas, don't know why anyone would want to be a gun writer, somebody's always forcing their hand!
Muley buck, Ruger 44 maggie & the 250 Keith cast, offhand, right at 90 yds as near as I could step it off, one shot, complete penetration, he was quartering away slightly.



Dick

Dick

quote:

Originally posted by Dick Thompson:
Panzer, I've been in a little 1st grade squabble with a forum member from south Texas, don't know why anyone would want to be a gun writer, somebody's always forcing their hand!


Dick

Dick

And the truth FINALLY comes out. You don't like gun writers. You mis-stated the guys whole premise, got called on it and all you could do was post pictures of all YOUR accomplishments (which were never in question). It truly is on a 1st grade level!

Perry

Perry, I'm sorry I got you into this, I had no idea it was going to upset you so bad. You really need to wind down & read everything again instead of making excuses & personal attacks. Can't you please come up with one itty bitty elk photo? No photo's & no explaination of the ft lbs minimum? If we happen to disagree with a writer then we don't like him, right! I've probably read more of his stuff than you have & I said this earlier..I like him, its just a discussion, some agree, some disagree, get over it & get some sleep.
I mentioned in the other post that we would declare you the winner & we can take up the discussion when I get to Bandera, I gave the address on the other post. Now don't disappoint me by being off elk hunting somewhere when I get there. Now get some rest!

Dick

Nice talking with you.

Perry

welcome...you will enjoy it.

Perry

Panzer,

Please stop posting in red it hurts the eyes.

465H&H

O.TAY!!!!!!!!!!

There is something very poignant about seeing the fresh faced hunter from yesteryear.