Sorry about where I posted this, I know it is not big game hunting.

Any advice from Law Enforcement officers would greatly be appriciated. Thanks in advance.

Big 17

If she will be primary user and has no experience to just a little experience then a .38 Special in a heavy frame revolver with aftermarket, small rubber grips would be a good choice. The +P .38 loads won't make her ears bleed on the first shot and recoil is manageable with the weight. Also the weight will help steady her hand.

If she has lots of experience then a .45 auto.

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I'm not belong to a law enforcement member.
First advice protect your house and car with a alarm system.
Second advice think about lock system on you doors and windows.

Don't know where you live. Don't where was your car in your garage or on the street.

Don't know if you want a revolver or a pistol. Don't know the amount of money that you want to used to purchase it.

Revolver : a S&W or Ruger (double action) between 2 1/2 and 4 " in .38 Sp.

Pistol : a .9mm or a .45 ACP you can find from CZ (cheapest) to Sig (one of the best).

Tell me more on what do you want and I coulb more precise in my reply.

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BER007
Keep the faith in any circumstances
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BBER007@HOTMAIL.COM

Several different ways to approach the problem. First off, if you plan on having your wife use this gun, you must find one that she is comfortable with. That means deciding on semi v. revolver. And then caliber.

Both semi's and revolver have their pluses and minuses. Revolver's are the easiest to use; just load it and pull the trigger. However, becuase the action of a semi does soak up some of the recoil, a revolver will kick more than a semi of the same caliber. They also carry less ammo.

I live in AZ and the, by far, #1 law enforcement weapon is the Glock. They are dependable guns and simple to use. They have a trigger safety and that's it. Just rack the action and fire. You can buy them in many different calibers and many different sizes. It would be simple to find one that fits your wife's hand. While I don't use one personally, I have shot enough to know they are good guns and would be my recomendation to anyone looking for a first handgun.

Then,depending on where you live, I would enroll both of you in a concealed carry course. Even if you never carry one concealed in your life, many of these courses are good because they introduce people to basic gun safety and gun handling skills. I don't know what your wife's level of skills are, but it can only help.

Lastly, the main thing in dealing with people who are looking to buy a self-defense weapon is comfort. They must be comfortable with the gun to be able to protect themselves with it. That's why I say you must find a caliber she'll be willing to shoot and be able to shoot accurately. She'd be better off with a .22 if she can hit with it than a .44mag if she can't. That's why I normally suggest a 9mm for women. It also has good stopping power.

And once again, she must get some type of training. It takes a certain mindset to realize that if I pull this gun, I'm going to use it. I'm not going to threaten, plead or anything else, I'm going to shoot. That's another reason concealed carry classes are good, because they introduce people to the idea that they must identify the time when they can shoot someone and when they must.

So, after all that, I'd say a Glock 9mm and find a frame that fits your wife's hand the best. Then make her shoot 100 rounds through and take her back to the range every three months.

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It is not enough to fight for natural land and the west; it is even more important to enjoy it. While you can. While it's still there. So get out there and hunt and fish and mess around with your friends...Enjoy yourselves, keep your brain in your head and your head firmly attached to the body, the body active and alive, and I promise you this much: I promise you this one sweet victory over our enemies, over those deskbound men with their hearts in a safe-deposit box and their eyes hypnotized by desk calculators. I promise you this: you will outlive the bastards.

- Edward Abbey

I recently owned a Tarus .38 revolver. It seemed to be a good piece of steel, however it was obnoxiously loud and not all that easy to handle accruately. I wouldn't buy another nor would I recommend a small .38 revolver. Also, my buddy's girlfriend was looking for a handgun at the time and hated it!

BUT what I can recommend is a GLOCK.

I have a glock 23 in 40s&w and it is by far my favorite ever! And every female that has ever shot is has liked it too. It's a good size, lightweight, easy to handle, and there isn't a lot to screw up; no safeties to worry about. Just point and shoot. Also, I've never had mine jam. Not once!

A similar piece in a 9mm might be the ticket also.

Anyhow, after you pick the pistol, you'll have to figure a way to keep is accessable yet safe with the little one running around!

good luck!

Where do you live? That makes a difference if you are living somewhere you might consider getting a concealed carry license.

Now, getting back to your situation described, the best thing to use when a person is trying to break into your car is the telephone. Sorry, but no matter what your feelings are on the matter at either extreme in most areas you are only allowed to use deadly force to keep from getting yourself or someone else dear to you killed or harmed.

If you are just looking at home defense I think your 20 guage is better than any handgun. Also buffers you a little from having a stray bullet go through a few walls and into someone innocent. If you are really set on a handgun I'd suggest a revolver with about a 5" barrel and in a caliber range from 38/357 to 44. It is better to shoot a smaller round accurately than a larger round inaccurately, but only you can find out what those are. I'm a tinkerer so I'm a sucker for 45 autos, but since you don't own one yet I'd go for the simplicity and reliability of a revolver. I'd also strongly suggest that you and your wife take a course in defensive handgun shooting. As you posted, you know this is not a big game question and I will add to your comment that big game hunting pretty much has very little consequences if you screw up and do something badly. Not so when dealing with another humans life, even if everything goes perfectly in a confrontational scenario you have the risk of someones death on your conscience for the rest of your life. That alone is reason for getting some extra training and doing some extra thinking.

ZM

WyoJoe

[This message has been edited by WyoJoe (edited 01-22-2002).]

Anyway, if you, or your wife have a chance, give a large frame 45 Long colt a try.
Ruger Blackhawks are nice.
The weight of the gun soaks up a lot of recoil, and makes it pretty easy to hit what you aim at. A 6 inch barrel is good, and stainless steel is good. The stainless makes the gun look bigger, and hopefully, one look at the business end of a 45 will be sufficent to convince anyone who might harm you to leave.

In a big gun, you can load 230 or 260 grain
hollowpoints, or 325 grain flat cast, at between 1000 and 1300 fps, and they don't kick that much, unless you go into the higher velocities, which aren't really
necessary, but still, at the lower velocities, you can out perform the 45 ACP
by a substantial margin, and considering 230 grain Federal Hydrashock hollow points are the industry standard, with something like a 94% one shot stopping rate, what would that same bullet do, going a bit faster????

Some of the older law enforcement legends on another site suggest that the cocking of a Single action revolver, and the distinct noise it makes, has had a sobering effect on many crooks they have faced, combined with the very large barrel they are looking down. That's hearsay,
but, a number of these guys have been doing it a long time, and I would not call them liars. Course their grizzeled old faces, and serious eyes probably helped, too.

45 Long colt can do anything the 45 short can do, ballistics, wise, cheaper, and better.

A Ruger Blackhawk will set you back all of
350 dollars, and, Buffalo Bore ammo has some very nice self defense rounds.

If you don't feel comfortable in a SAA, then a Redhawk works as well, but more expensive.
This is a home defense weapon, and with a baby, make sure you get a trigger lock that releases quickly.

Needless to say, the size makes this weapon difficult to conceal.

Another thought is, if you have to use the gun, it's going to be taken away from you while the incident is investigated.

A good 45 is 700-1000 bucks, and it's no good in a police evidence room to you.

You might also consider keeping that 20 gauge around. Shotguns are hard to beat for home defense.

Another choice, one that is really scary to most crooks, and their worst nightmare, is an Ingram, or similar, 45 caliber semi-auto
machine pistol, with a 30 round mag.

They are really fun to play with, and, at close range, can be really devastating.
gs

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NRA Life member

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NRA Life member

I'm from the keep it simple school of self-defense. For a pistol kept in the home get her a 6 inch barreled 6 shot 357 revolver. Keep it in a pistol safe with a rapid push-button combination lock. (About $125-$150)

The S&W line is pretty good out of the box, if you can get past their politics. The barrel adds heft and points naturally. I have yet to find a woman who can't hold six inches at 7 yards (SA) after an hour's instruction with my Ruger Security six. All it's had is a home-made trigger job, following reading Kuhnhausen's book. After they learn to shoot SA I teach them the first shot SA, then DA as fast as she can point and pull the trigger till it clicks. No safety, no clip, just point and shoot. I only use "bad guy" targets from the beginning.

Nothing to remember on a revolver that's not in the "bicycle" category. None of the women I've taught to shoot could remember how to operate a 45/9mm after a six month hiatus. They don't want to practice and it all just fades away.

For a carry weapon get a LadySmith or equivalent in 38 special. Anything less and you might as well throw rocks, anything more and she won't carry it.

Don

When you factor in the number of police conflicts in that equation, the likelyhood of really ever having to pull the trigger more then once is unlikely.

You are right, SActions take lots of practice
to get off the second shot.

However, autos jam, and always at the wrong time.

As for others, yes, the Kimber is around, and better then a colt;-)

If your wife is not a devoted shooter, willing to go to the range at least once per quarter (preferably once a month) to maintain proficiency I would strongly advise you NOT to buy her a semi-automatic pistol. There are simply too many things that can go wrong that require an ingrained muscle-memory response to clear a malfunctioning pistol. A double action revolver on the other hand - if it doesn't go "BANG" just pull the trigger again...

All the arguments against DA revolvers as duty weapons are hogwash when viewed in light of a minimally trained person attempting to handle a life threatening self defense scenario.

Capacity limitations - BAH! Unless you forsee needing to repel home invaders, six or seven rounds of 357 Magnum ammunition will handle your problems.

Reloading speed - see issue above

Recoil - a 357 magnum revolver loaded with 38 special target loads is a nice, soft shooting practise gun. I would personally look at the Taurus Tracker in 357 - mine in 41 magnum is one of the softest shooting revolvers I've ever owned; I imagine the 357 version is a real pussy cat. And, when loaded with 125 gr JHP magnum loads the gun will still be controlable

Now, before I get flamed, I know that modern semi-autos are reliable as death and taxes. But I just finished teaching a reactive shooting course where I saw 11 Sig P228s ALL fail at least once during a course that averaged only 400 rounds fired per day. All of the malfunctions were linked to old magazines; but these experienced shooters (some are DEA tactical team members) couldn't clear some of them. Will your wife practise TAP, RACK, BANG often and diligently enough to handle the worst possible situation during a lethal force encounter?

Likewise, Glocks (especially the 9mm versions) are notorious for failing to cycle properly if "limp wristed." If you go the Glock route, your wife will need to be trained with a rock solid lock out on her grip... Also, Glock recoil springs can be tougher than some non-shooters can easily handle during the malfunction drill...

Bottom line - every friend of mine who ever asked this question has been advised to START with a 4" barrel 357. Once that's mastered, if your wife finds she likes to shoot, you can consider a more advanced weapon... If you ABSOLUTELY MUST have a semi-auto, I think the Glock 19 is probably the best way to go...

Hope this helps!

Regards,

Kevin

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SPEED KILLS

Also get the books by Massad Ayoob. The ones I know are "The Truth About Self Protection" and "In The Gravest Extreme"

Some points that were made. You don't use or even threaten deadly force over property.

The first things to do is to put more lights outside your house and property. Install a alarm.

Cars are stolen every day. They don't even put it in the paper.

A firearm in my state must be locked or the owner is responsible if it's used in the wrong way.

As to guns. Your shot gun is far and away the best. But if the wife must have a pistol after taking a course and she really want's one and will practice with it the best is a double action revolver.

Auto jam all the time. Stove pipes, bad ammo, failure to feed, failure to extract, failure to fire because the safety is on or half off and failure to fire because the slide is back a tiny bit. None of these are revolver problems.

Another self-defense rig I favor is a S&W Centennial (Airweight) .38 S&W Special in either a Mitch Rosen pocket holster, a Galco small-of-the-back holster, or else a Mitch Rosen ankle holster.

I keep my home and office defense system a private matter........

Exactly what I carry depends on the time of year, the weather, the location, and all that sort of thing.......

I highly recommend any good .45 ACP as a self-defense gun over any other handgun. The more you put into one of them, the better off you'll be. I shoot at least 2,000 rounds of .45 ACP ammo in practice every year, and I have since I was 21 years old.

Buying a handgun, then sticking it in a dresser drawer - all forgotten until you really need it - is worse than not buying a self-defense handgun at all. I recommend enrolling and participating in a good course such as those offer by "Thunder Ranch" and "Gunsite Ranch".

For most people, a well-setup shotgun is better than a handgun for home defense. So is a Model 92 or Model 94 Winchester......

Knowing when not to shoot is more important than knowing when to shoot.

If you must shoot an intruder, never, EVER fake any evidence or pull any other sort of dishonest shennanigan to cover your tracks. You'll be found out, rest assured of that, and you'll rue the day you ever decided to get coy and pull a fast one.......

AD

Secondly, the main idea is to keep the bad guys out of your house. Same goes for your car. A good alarm system with the signs and stickers warning the bad guys is still your best defense along with a cell phone just in case phone lines are cut. Any thies worth his salt will pick an easier target.

Lastly, in the event someone does ignore the alarm or somehow bypasses it, you must be sure everyone in your home is willing to take a life. In my opinion, the best tool for that in the home is a short barreled shotgun loaded with 7 1/2 shot.

With that being said, what do I keep in my house? Main floor, Mossberg 500 12 ga. 20" bbl. Lower level, Stevens 311 side by side 12 ga. 20" bbl.

I carried for years a Colt Comander in 45 ACP with 240 gr. Federal Hollow points..It has had a trigger job and has been throated to feed anything up to beer cans...

My other defense pistol is a 9MM browning, with about the same modifications except it has a set of Smith sights sunk in the top of the frame. I shoot the Border Patrol plus P plus ammunition in it..

These two automatics are not for everyone. They are recommended only for those folks that are very familiar with handguns....At least I think that is a fair assessment.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

quote:

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Originally posted by Gunner:
Now, before I get flamed, I know that modern semi-autos are reliable as death and taxes. But I just finished teaching a reactive shooting course where I saw 11 Sig P228s ALL fail at least once during a course that averaged only 400 rounds fired per day. All of the malfunctions were linked to old magazines; but these experienced shooters (some are DEA tactical team members) couldn't clear some of them.

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Gunner,
I would not think of flaming anyone, especially for telling the truth. Could you elaborate more on the magazine failures on the P-228. I have my brother's here on a long term loan. The magazines I have for it is (2) of the 13 round ones and a 15 rounder from a P-226. My brother is a career navy cop & he said the navy is going to the P-228 because of failures in the Beretta M-92. It would be good to have information to share with him.

For those who advocate reading Massad Ayoob's books I have to heartily agree. He defintely has his head screwed on straight.

Best Wishes,
WyoJoe

quote:

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Originally posted by Big_R:
Lower level, Stevens 311 side by side 12 ga. 20" bbl.

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I thought I was the only one left with one of those. Bought mine in '68. My bbls = 28", full & mod. How does yours shoot?

Been a cop since 1975 and an active Firearms Instructor for a dozen years.

A couple of things; WHERE do you reside? That has some impact on what I may suggest. States look at self defense and defense of property very differently. What will be page three news in Montana, is front page news and an indictment in say New Jersey.

What kind of dwelling? A rural home with few neighbors close by or are you an urban apartment dweller?

Everyone looks at the tools for the job and this is surely the most interesting part of our hobby. I would certainly suggest that one should take steps to never have to use those tools. I believe in self defense, but you need to understand that as soon as that trigger is pulled your lives have changed and possibly forever. Again, depending on where you reside and the circumstances.

I am sold on OC spray or pepper spray. I have used it several times on the job and its probably one of the better non lethal alternatives, certainly one of the more effective given the limited training and cash outlay required. I strongly suggest a can of OC and a little training as a first line of defense for non life threatening situations.

Another big question.....Is your wife ready to pull a trigger?? This is surely something between you and her, but something to be dealt with none the less. Is she level headed enough to properly deal with a deadly force situation?? Mere presence of a weapon sometimes deters crime, but what if she has to use it?

As others have said; absolutely take a weapons training course or better yet a concealed carry permit course as those generally get into the "shoot/ Dont shoot" scenarios and your state laws as well.

My wife carries a 3" S&W 36, with grips that fit her smallish hands, with 125 grain +p hollow points. She also has a SIG 226 in 9mm in the safe with three mags.

I think a well made revolver is a very good weapon for anyone who is not very into guns. Very simple to use, just point and pull the trigger. It can be argued that autos have more firepower, etc. But I find that many non gun people have a difficult time figuring out if autos are loaded, not loaded, etc. Revolvers are easy to teach, just open the cylinder and look at it.
Autos also jam at times, tap and rack drills are toughies for non gun people.

I'm just off shift and its been a long day, I'm sure I forgot something, but feel free to e mail me if you like.

Frank N.

quote:

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Originally posted by Big_R:

<SNIP>

In my opinion, the best tool for that in the home is a short barreled shotgun loaded with 7 1/2 shot.

With that being said, what do I keep in my house? Main floor, Mossberg 500 12 ga. 20" bbl. Lower level, Stevens 311 side by side 12 ga. 20" bbl.

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See, here is where I'll get in trouble because I have guns stashed on every floor in my house, I'll take 10 minutes figuring out which one I want to use! I used to have pepper spray on top of the refrigerator (I keep the guns locked up, main floor and basement in small combo lock handgun safes) but when my 3 year old came sauntering in to the living room with it I decided to keep all the pepper spray upstairs!

That just reminded me of a story- my parents have sheep and growing up we used to occasionally get stray dogs in with them. Well us boys being the shooting type of family we would grab whichever gun we had that was the newest, so it might mean that one week the dog medicine was a 45, next week it was a marlin 22, week after that 338, 30-06, etc. Main thing that taught me early on is that handgun stopping power is usually pretty marginal compared even to a 30/30 or similar.

My wife cannot pull the slide back on my 45, partially because it is stronger than stock but again I do not feel that an auto should be a first handgun.

I wish you and your wife that you will not be forced to use it . . .

Jiri

Got mine a few years back. It had 23" barrels (?!) and wood stocks. I shortened them to 20", added a fiber optic sight, and a triple mag recoil pad. It shoots great, however I wouldn't want to run heavy 3" through it all day.

I learned about this drill from a close friend in law enforcement who said it would simulate a high stress situation. I was shooting competition at the time and by practicing this drill, I drastically improved my scores because it taught me how to shoot under stress.

My point is, if you have the time and are willing to train, a handgun will do the job. If you do not keep up the training, stick with a long gun. Remember, we're not talking concealed carry where a handgun is the logical choice.

For an untrained or minimally trained relatively unmotivated individual there is no question in my mind that a revolver is superior to an auto for self defense.

Finally, if you are in the habit of coming home late or at unusual hours, have a complete understanding with your wife as to how you will announce your entry. Many husbands have been shot this way, some accidentally. LOL

The failures this weekend with the 228s were caused by old, over used weak magazine springs. With fresh magazines the guns were 100% reliable. Most of the impetus behind switching from M9 (Berettas) to M11 (Sigs) in the USN Law Enforcement is to standardize with the duty weapon issued to NCIS agents, not necessarily because the M9 is unreliable...

With your own 228 I'd give a fully loaded mag a good hard shake. If there's any rattling sound or if the top round bounces up and down as if on a worn out shock absorber, I'd switch the mag springs right away. Also, I'm not sure I'd trust my life to any magazine not designed to be used with my weapon, such as a 226 mag in a 228. I'm just not sure the extra two rounds would be worth risking a failure in extremis...

Regards,

Kevin

The answer to your problem is a dog, a big and noisy one.

Rotts or Great Pyrs are great home protection dogs, and, if you get a good one, with a big head, they are as smart as most people;-)

Plus, the baby and the puppy can grow up at the same time...

gs

Revolver for someone who won't train EXTENSIVELY. BOTH of Ayoob's books!
Recommend his LFI-1 course.

Now I remember why I didn't like magnums. Lots of noise, poor accuracy, at least in their hands, and a wimpy little slug.

I also shot the range masters 40, and I was really impressed. Accurate, easy to fire, and not much recoil compared to what I was firing, it felt like a 22...

By the way: These ideas aren't mine, or at least not all of them. I posted your note in
a forum where the guys KNOW handguns:
http://disc.server.com/Indices/47763.html

The response to your post was great.

The guys at that site are legends in the handgun business, period.

gs

FYI my wife can operate the slide on any semi-auto with ease; it takes technique more than strength. She's 120 pounds.

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JD