Here is one for all the folks that believe every spike will grow into a trophy buck. This is from a 2.5 to 3.5 year old buck.

This buck was taken in a county in Texas with the 13 inch, inside spread antler restrictions.

Were it not for the fact that the left antler had no points on it, it would have been an illegal buck under the 13 inch inside spread antler restrictions in p-lace in the county where it was killed.

Being illegal in the eyes of the law, would not have kept this buck from passing on his inferior genetics.



Trying to manage just the trophy segment of the herd of free ranging animals, simply will not work in the long run.

How many of you would have been willing to shoot this buck on a $1500.00 a gun or higher lease?

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Here is one for all the folks that believe every spike will grow into a trophy buck. This is from a 2.5 to 3.5 year old buck.

This buck was taken in a county in Texas with the 13 inch, inside spread antler restrictions.

Were it not for the fact that the left antler had no points on it, it would have been an illegal buck under the 13 inch inside spread antler restrictions in p-lace in the county where it was killed.

Being illegal in the eyes of the law, would not have kept this buck from passing on his inferior genetics.



Trying to manage just the trophy segment of the herd of free ranging animals, simply will not work in the long run.

How many of you would have been willing to shoot this buck on a $1500.00 a gun or higher lease?

Why so much stress on the size of the antlers?

Why assume that deer with smaller antlers are "inferior" to deer with larger ones?

I would consider that larger body mass and reproductive success.

Perhaps larger antlers make it harder for a deer to feed?

I agree that antler restrictions in states are stupid, because it selectively removes "better" antlered deer from the population and makes the less endowed animals "protected"

Antlers are not a component of Stew or Chili.
if I want them to make something of them say REAL antler toggles for a winter coat or knife handles I can walk around the woods in the spring and pick up shed antlers

Most importantly talking about antlers is the quickest way of getting an anti-hunter to think the antlers are all you care about.

Or to translate for the thicker skulled readers:

It makes non-hunting people think you are an asshole.

In that light are you sure they are wrong?

Anyone who would pay $1500 a gun to shoot any "deer" probably is an asshole...

I can see a $1500 hunt to shoot a Bison or Moose but a deer?

Frankly I could see the money better spent buying a replica like is found in any Cabela's store and lying about it for the next 20 years.

AD

quote:

Anyone who would pay $1500 a gun to shoot any "deer" probably is an asshole...

I can see a $1500 hunt to shoot a Bison or Moose but a deer?

Frankly I could see the money better spent buying a replica like is found in any Cabela's store and lying about it for the next 20 years.

WTF is that supposed to mean?

Last month I went on a $5000 mule deer hunt. Just for one deer. Why does that make me an asshole, in fact by your logic an asshole X 3.33? (And no, I'm not wealthy by any stretch of the imagination.)

I wouldn't spend a nickel to go to a football, baseball or basketball game, or attend a NASCAR race.
I wouldn't spend a nickel to catch the biggest fish on earth (or any other fish for that matter.)
I wouldn't spend a nickel to go to a casino.

Many people spend fortunes to do these things. I certainly wouldn't call them "assholes" for doing so. It's their money.

BTW: Where can I find that $1500 moose hunt? (But maybe not this year, I just signed up for an antelope hunt that will cost over $2K. For a critter that's even smaller than a deer.)

On the subject of antler restrictions, they're the least objectionable way to cut down on the number of 1.5 -2.5 year old bucks getting killed and allow more bucks to reach maturity. I'd personally rather see limits on the number of buck tags issued, but that costs game departments money and pisses off a lot of hunters.

I never quite understood the guys who'd rather shoot a young forkhorn or spike for meat every year instead of a doe for meat anyway. A young buck is way dumber than a full grown doe, and light years dumber than a mature buck, so it's not like you're some kinda great hunter because you kill a buck every year.

ARs are sold to hunters as a way to grow bigger deer, but what they're really about is getting herds more balanced in terms of age and sex. Here in PA, most of our bucks were getting killed before their 3rd birthday, and we had tons of does.

I fully agree that antler restrictions aren't the perfect solution, but I think they are better than what we had before.

I would say that deer is the exception,not the rule.I raised deer when I was younger.They were not for sale or to be hunted.It was just a hobby.I never had a Buck that stayed a spike.In fact some Bucks I had were never a Spike .Sometimes a fork,a six point and one that was an eight point first year he had horns.Deer are just like people.Some are small,some are large.Just like any farm animal,you can breed what ever characteristics you want into them.Thats why High fenced ranches can offer huge Bucks.They would never get that big unless they were in an area where they are relatively undisturbed or the genetics and food are available for them to get big.

The problem I am seeing in this area with the Antler Restriction regulations,, is that I do see a lot of spikes. older spikes. Also I see a lot of older/mature bucks that are 5 and 6 and even 8 pointers that on their best day won't make the 13 inch Inside Spread regulation. In fact before the AR's were enacted in the counties where I work, I have measured plenty of bucks that would not make 12 inches outside spread.

As someone else pointed out, and seeing it in action, antler restrictions throws the pressure on to that segment of the herd that reaches or exceeds the restrictions, regardless of the animals age.

Down here, in the counties with the AR's and the cost of lease fees and the laxity of real management plans, a good many younger deer with good maybe great genetics gets shot the minute they reach the 13 inch I.S. minimum.

From my experience here in north Texas, too many shooters are interested in a legal buck, whether it is an actual trophy or not, and unless they are on an intensively managed property, the first legal buck they come across is shot.

The result is, animals that should be left for a few years are taken out and animals that should be culled can't be, because they don't meet the inside spread requirement.

A good portion of Missouri has a 4 point law meaning at least on side must have 4-1" points to be legal

Spikes are protected

We have 3 points to a side in a lot of the state, and 4 in the rest. Junior hunters can shoot anything with a 3" or longer antler.

I have noticed a marked increase in the number of decent "shooter" bucks around here. Most of them aren't huge, but there are quite a few good 8-10 points running around. There are spikes and forkhorns, but nearly all of the ones I see are immature deer.

From my experiences, just as there are differences in deer and deer herds as you move around the country, so there are different management programs. Depending on the hunters in those places and what they are interested in the programs get rated successes or failures and all stops in between.

I have good friends in Pennsylvania that do not like the 3 point rule and over the past few years all they have been able to kill has been does. In fact one of these folks buys a Virginia Non-Resident license and hunts there instead of at his families home area in PA.

When hunting muleys in Colorado, in unit 421 they had the 3 point restriction, while I did manage to kill a couple of legal bucks there. my biggest buck, one that grossed 170, came from unit 21, south of Rangely, which at the time only required a hardened antler 6 inches long I believe, that was in 1997.

One thing that I feel for certain, there is no blanket set of regulations that will be acceptable by all the hunters or that will completely manage all deer in a state or region, again those are just opinions.

AD and Crazyhorse, I mean this post to be informational, not controversial.

AD
Since you are in Penn, you might not know about deer hunting in Texas.

There is very little public land. While there is some day hunting on Private land, for a fee, many hunters in Texas have a season or a yearly hunting lease on Private land.

These leases can run from $1500 to the sky is the limit, depending on the area.

I have been on the same Hunting Lease for @18 years, so we have an active Management program.

Our county just a couple of years ago went form a one buck county to a two buck county. WE still limit ourselves to one buck apiece.

However it is legal by State law for each of us to shoot 2 bucks. In a situation like the above buck, many times it will be declared a "cull" buck and we will allow a kid or a guest, or one of us will go ahead and shoot it for the meat.

A cull buck does not count against our "lease" buck, but by law is still one of our two bucks allowed statewide.

The 13" rule is somewhat controversial. It has been imposed on what I call marginal deer hunting counties. Marginal because they are not great hunting areas, have relatively low deer populations as opposed to the better areas of the State, and some of them have been victims of high poaching over the years.

The idea is to increase the quality of the larger horned deer, in those areas.

The deer lease I am on now is the best lease I have ever hunted on, and I see many shootable deer, by shootable, I mean NICE horns for this area,every year but I have not killed a buck in 5 years.

I saw 2 bucks year befor last, either one I should have shot, they were nice, but I just did not, waiting for something bigger that I have already killed.

I hunt Bucks for Horns. So I understand the point Crazyhorse is making.

Not many lease hunters in good deer areas of Texas would shoot that buck...

And believe it or not many hunters do not really like to eat deer meat, and/or their wife and kids will NOT eat it either, AT ALL.

I shoot at least 2 does every year for the meat.

The wife and I had deer meat last night, wild pig ribs the night before, ground meat steaks, I made from deer and wild pig trimmings, the night before that, so I also understand the point you are making.

I have seen a deer that was a spike one year and had branched antlers the next. I have also seen the same deer be a spike several years in a row...

CHC,

When we had this spike discussion last year, I don't remember ANYONE stating that ALL spikes will grow to become trophy deer. You've repeated that mantra numerous times now in several posts.

What was stated was just the opposite. Specifically that not all spikes will remain inferior deer in terms of antler growth. Some may not amount to much but just because a young deer is a spike for 1 or 2 years, does not preclude him from becoming something special once he reaches maturity at 5.5 or 6.5 years old.

Because of that, all of us "assholes", as AD would call us, since we pay considerably more than his figure each year to hunt, on our lease do not shoot 1.5 or young spikes as culls. If we find a mature spike, which we haven't, then he would qualify for culling with our management program.

I would need additional confirmation of age before shooting the deer in your picture.

I don't just talk to folks on this forum, nor do I get all my information from one or two sources. Not all areas of the state or a county are the same as far as the make up of its deer herd. In looking back at my OP, there were facts I left out. I have been working on the property where this buck was killed since 2009.

The morning this buck came in, I was guiding a first time deer hunter on a doe/spike hunt. This animal came in right after 8 a.m., in the company of 4 larger racked bucks but all 5 animals were between 2.5 to possibly 4.5 in age from the best of my observations of the animals at the feeder approximately 80 yards from the stand. I have never claimed to be an expert, but in pulling and checking jaws from all the deer I have been involved in the killing of, I am usually not very far off. At least two if not 3 of the other bucks in the group were well outside their ears, one was possibly between 16 and 18 inches I.S. Now this animal and the group he was in was the second group of deer that came in that morning.

The first group, four animals, all bucks, all 8 pointers at least, all probably 3.5 or older, came in shortly after the feeder went off at 7 a.m. Of those 4 animals three of them were AR legal bucks. Out of 9 total buck deer observed in a little over an hour at one feeder, all of them between 2.5 and 4.5 with maybe one animal pushing 5.5, all but one, the one pictured being basic main frame 8 pointers and 5 of the 8 being actual shooter bucks within the parameters of the AR regulations, I decided that taking that particular animal out was what needed to be done.

I have talked to people and read articles by folks that believe that all spikes have the possibility of growing into something better. I just don't believe that way. Evidently, TP&W biologists don't buy into it either or they would not be allowing hunters to kill two spikes or would not allow spikes to be killed during the Late Antlerless season.


My philosophy on spikes, and it appears to not be having any negative effects, is that with as many bucks as I am seeing when scouting and as many as we are seeing on game cam pics that are branch antlered and either already legal shooters or have the potential, the spikes are going to be taken out so that the better animals will get a little extra feed. It may not be perfect, but I simply do not see letting an animal that may never grow into anything, and eating food that a visibly better animal could be eating, as not real profitable as a herd management practice.

I am sure that some spikes might have the potential and some do grow into decent bucks, but when I can set in a stand watching a feeder and see a half dozen or more bucks of varying ages come in to feed and the majority of them are branch antlered with good potential, and a spike sticks his head up, he is living on borrowed time from that point on, and on the places I am working on, there is no guarantee I will see that particular buck again during the season. The beauty of spending 350 plus days in the field, you get to recognizing individual deer.

While it sounds/reads like it, I don't just shoot every spike I see on sight, that would be illegal. I do however try to take as many spikes out either on my own license or thru our doe/spike hunters, simply because we have plenty of up and coming bucks that already show potential.

As I say, having had the chance to hunt in various areas of Texas, not all areas or regions are the same across the state or even in counties in regards to the make up of the deer herd. Spending as much time as I do in the field and having access to game cam pics of the places I work on, and my boss having really good lines of communication with the folks that lease the properties he manages, it is fairly easy to get a good idea of what type of animals are roaming the approximately 20K acres I work on.

What is working for us might not or will not work for someone hunting a property 15 miles away. We all have our opinions and experiences, none are perfect, that is just life. If a person wants to let a spike walk for 2 or 3 seasons before taking it out, that is their prerogative and their business. I just don't view things the same way.

Can you say what county you are hunting in?

I hunt in Throckmorton county.

I just want to know where these 1500 a gun leases are and their phone numbers. All I have found is 3500 a gun for 50 acres. Or 12-15 hunters on a section.

quote:

Can you say what county you are hunting in?

Yes Sir, north western part of Young/south western part of Archer. All the properties are in the Olney area.

I was born in Olney and grew up in the Olney/Newcastle area. Killed my first deer just west of Lake Graham in 1970 on a 160 acre place I had sub-leased for $25.00.

I can remember being on two different 500 acre leases, one in the Medlen Chapel area south west of Graham, and one east of Murray, during the mid to late 70's, that leased for $1.00 an acre and let us have 8 hunters on the properties.

Places I am working on, where we are hunting deer now, still have the old terraces running thru them from when they were wheat fields up until the mid 80's and are now mesquite pastures. I can remember from when seeing a deer anytime was an event, to where I can make a 10 mile or so beerrun on some dirt roads south of where I live and see 50 to 100+ deer in an afternoon. Especially so right now when those deer start piling into the wheat fields that actually have fresh growth in them.

Not trying or meaning to come across as a smart ass, but I have been traveling/hunting this area for a little over 45 years and I have witnessed first hand the changes that have taken place up here. I have known my boss or members of his immediate family for 50 years.

Archer/Baylor/Throckmorton and Young have made up a major part of mine and my parents world starting in 1907. Not meaning to sound defensive with any of this, but my opinions are based on what I have witnessed/experienced during my hunting career at least. Now that I am in the situation where I am in the pastures daily, checking feeders/filling feeders/working on stands/setting in stands at various times checking to see what type of and how many deer are coming in to the feeders, checking to see if hogs or turkeys are coming in to the feeders, checking the game cams we have running, I get plenty of opportunity to see what is going on with the deer/hogs/turkey/quail.

The 2000 acres that the boss and his family own is lightly hunted on some of the pastures, even though we have lots of deer coming in, unless we have paying hunters coming in, the only time some of those properties are hunted is when Lora and I go after does or a spike.

I know this has become a ramble, but, my boss and his kids and their spouses are trophy hunters and with the AR's in effect and with the fact we feed protein and corn year round we have a lot of deer, a lot more than we would have under natural conditions.

I am not saying that killing all spikes is a perfect management tool, nor am I saying that spikes won't or can't grow into something bigger.

However, in our situation, on the properties I work on, if it doesn't show the potential to be a trophy, an actual trophy which to the hunters hunting the leases Robert manages means a 130 or larger, 4.5 years old or older, letting that animal walk and continue eating groceries, hoping it turns into something is not good management in my estimation. With the AR's in effect, if you let a spike walk till it is 3.5 or even 5.5 once it grows a countable/1 inch point on each antler, it can't be touched. There is no allowance under the AR's for culling bucks that may be 8 pointers with 10 inch inside spread racks.

Right now in some of the pastures on the 18K that Robert leases out we have a crap load of 2.5 and older fork horns that are not 7 inches wide, and will never be 13 inches wide and even if they do make the 13 inch I.S., you cannot force a hunter to waste a tag on a cull.

My apologies for the rant, but as I said before, there is no one size fits all deer management scheme.

quote:

Originally posted by kjjm4:
On the subject of antler restrictions, they're the least objectionable way to cut down on the number of 1.5 -2.5 year old bucks getting killed and allow more bucks to reach maturity. I'd personally rather see limits on the number of buck tags issued, but that costs game departments money and pisses off a lot of hunters.

I never quite understood the guys who'd rather shoot a young forkhorn or spike for meat every year instead of a doe for meat anyway. A young buck is way dumber than a full grown doe, and light years dumber than a mature buck, so it's not like you're some kinda great hunter because you kill a buck every year.

ARs are sold to hunters as a way to grow bigger deer, but what they're really about is getting herds more balanced in terms of age and sex. Here in PA, most of our bucks were getting killed before their 3rd birthday, and we had tons of does.

I fully agree that antler restrictions aren't the perfect solution, but I think they are better than what we had before.

I saw the previous thread on yearling spikes in Dec and now this one. I'm no expert in deer genetics but do feel a young buck may or may not have the gentics to turn into a slammer. I do feel they need a resonable chance to do so. What that is I don't know but I would like to relate a small horror story realting to a this past deer season.

Every year I travel back up to NE PA to hunt with family. This year (2012) we planned to hunt the first Saturday. I should have know things weren't going well when we follwed a hunter into the woods who proceded to light up a cigarette and cough up a lung till the early morning. We passed him and headed to my favorte stand location that I've been hunting for years. Another hunter not long after proceeded past us after I signaled him with a flashlight only to sit 50 yrds beyond us. He also proceeded to cough up a lung. Shortly after 7am we heard him shoot and watched this deer stumble by us. I told my wife to hold off because I could swear the deer had antlers. Long story short the gentlemen shot the deer thinking it was a doe. The yearling spike buck went all of 100lbs (if that). I was so disgusted after takling to him and trying to convince him to report the legal kill. I truly feel he would have left it if we weren't there. He told me it was his first time hunting the area and proceeded to ask me how long I have. His jaw dropped when I told him 25 (+/-) years. On top of it all there was a dead 8 point (ass shot) only 10 yards from where the spike buck lied dead. I was so disgusted I quit hunting that day. Just makes me wonder what that yearling spike may or may not have become if given the chance.

If it's OK I'd like to put the spike thing in terms of the whole issue of restrictions on what to shoot and their effect.

Here's a "tale of two states" for you on this. I hunt in TN and MS (and AR, but we'll leave them out of this for now). TN and MS have radically different views on it. In MS you can't shoot spikes or any "in-between size". It has to be antlerless (no antler breaking the skinline) and you can't even shoot those if you're a non-resident, with limited exceptions, or the deer has to be a "legal buck". For that there's the 10-13 Rule. That's 10" spread or 13" beam. Everything in-between is illegal. So the whole question of shooting spikes is moot; you can't do it anyway.

TN does it MUCH more to my liking. Antlerless is a deer with no antlers or antlers less than 3". Everything else is a legal buck and there're NO antler size requirements at all. I just LOVE the way we do that, frankly.

Now, what are the practical results of these differences?

There are many. One is, I'm a pretty serious handgun hunter, and as such long discovered it's next to impossible to get within handgun range for a good, clean shot on a "quality buck". A doe or small buck is typically about the best you can hope for. To put it bluntly, I'm into that to the extent that I'd RATHER get an antlerless with my open sights S&W or SBH or Auto Mag than a 10 pt with my scoped 30-06. I know how that's going to sound to everyone here, but that's the way it is. So, the MS side of the line offers me little.

Another thing is, that "no antlers that break the skinline" deal just plain doesn't work at all. The reason being too obvious to need explaining.

Another reason is, I'm not a trophy hunter.

Another reason, I don't live out there and it's $20 gasoline every time I do this and there are only so many days I can go or get somebody else to go with me. And I don't get a shot at a deer every time I go, antlerless or not. So, each hunt has to count. Therefore, I like the freedom to take what I need to, to not risk winding up with an empty freezer.

Another reason, when it came to purchasing land to hunt on, I passed on a nice place in N. MS for a similar place a few miles from it but over the line in W. TN, mainly to have flexibility in what I can shoot. And also to save on licenses. MS charges $300 a year for an out-of-stater and ain't impressed by the fact you're hunting on your own land.

Which really gets down to it. I like letting the hunter have the freedom to make the decision what to take or not. I'd leave that up to the individual hunter, club or landowner rather than make the whole darn state a trophy management area.

Oh, and having been at this since about 1970 I have seen, found and shot all sorts of spike lengths of various ages. They aren't one size or age fits all. And some get really wierd looking or very long spikes. It's no scientific judgment, but my instincts say, go on and take those kind out, where the state gives a choice.

Near as I can tell, antler restrictions are a rulemaking way to try and keep people from shooting immature deer.

If we could pass a rule that you were not to shoot a buck less than 4 years old, I think that you would not need antler restrictions...but then you would be throwing a ticket at the vast majority of deer hunters, at least around here. If you give point and tape measure readings, no one can argue the point. Saying its 4, not 3.5 years is a bit more difficult.

In my state, except in some high population density areas, you are allowed one deer, and a doe is a special permit. We have a pretty good deer population, but we have even more folks chasing them. To be honest, I personally would welcome antler restrictions around here as almost all the killed bucks I see are 1-3 years old and I would like to see some bigger deer. If you want to meat shoot, I would prefer to shoot a doe.

We must be doing it all wrong in Ohio. We shoot all kinds of spikes. Somehow, we still have great numbers of really good bucks. We take a lot of does as well but the deer population continues to climb. Good and plentiful feed in the form of corn and soybeans as well as natural food items play a bigger part. ODNR does a great job of managing the states resource in this case. Last year we could take up to six in my county but only one antlered buck. Spikes are considered antlerless here for this purpose. Anytime someone makes a one size fits all statement no matter what the subject, it is going to come back and bite them.
There is almost never one answer or approach to any issue.