I was watching the hunting show "Choose your Weapon". They were hunting whitetail in S. Texas. One of the guys was using a 7mm STW. While sitting in the blind he said you make a marginal shot with a .243 or 30-06 and the deer could run 100-200 yards and make it difficult to track in the S. Texas brush country. That's why he choose the 7mm STW because it anchors them in their tracks. No tracking needed.

I guess everyone should run out and get a 7mm STW so they can drop deer in their tracks with marginal shots.

Scott, in the show's sequel, he's out there with a 378 Weatherby :-)

Wait until he says a 45-70 is marginal on a whitetail.

Those shows are what they are, entertainment, infomercials, and poor ones at best.

Well, I guess anything is possible. I have killed one deer with a .22 Hornet, DRT at around 80 yards + or -. I lost a deer shot with a .22 Hornet, not DRT at about that same range.

I have killed plenty of deer with my .375 H&H, but the one I will never forgewt was a small 8 point buck at less than 50 yards, that I shot with a 250 grain Barnes Flat Baser "X" bullet, that took out the entire top 1/3 of his heart, arteries and all, and thaty little bastard covered 60 yards before he realized he wasc dead.

The best thing we, as a group could do for ourselves and our image, is to STOP watching these POS shows. Unless a person brains something or hits the CNS, and that ain't no God Damn news channel, shit is not going to automatically fall DRT.

I have seen a lot of deer with the heart and lungs turned to mush. From many differant caiblers run a 100 yards or so.

If one wants to drop them on the spot a CNS hit is th only sure way brain or spine them.

Even with broken shoulders they can go aways.

You can't fix stupid....but you can sell it.

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Originally posted by kudu56:
Wait until he says a 45-70 is marginal on a whitetail.

Those shows are what they are, entertainment, infomercials, and poor ones at best.

Everyone knows it's way too slow. They mentioned speed kills all the time and equated speed to horsepower. They also said the average caliber shoots a bullet out at 3200 fps. There is no way big and slow will create the HP needed to kill S. Whitetails.

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Those shows are what they are, entertainment, infomercials, and poor ones at best.

These guys say what they are PAID to say.

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Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Well, I guess anything is possible. I have killed one deer with a .22 Hornet, DRT at around 80 yards + or -. I lost a deer shot with a .22 Hornet, not DRT at about that same range.

When the .22 Hornet came out, it was used quite a bit in the northwest part of Pennsylvania for deer, cheaper than the 30-40 Krags they were accustomed to...

I'm not going to get in the much discussed and cussed concept that "speed kills" in bullets, but I've seen numerous animals (deer and hogs) DRT from high velocity expanding bullets starting with the 7mm Rem mag and going up from there. Several of these hits were not the best either. OTOH, I've also seen them run, but not far. I've also gut shot running hogs with a .300 WM loaded with 150 gr Ballistic Tips that died within 25 yards of where they were hit. Would they have done the same thing with a slower less expansive bullet? Not in my experience.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not in any way saying velocity can or should replace bullet placement but it sure as hell doesn't hurt to have it when things go awry.

Are you sure it wasn't the 7 RM it is pure magic.....koolaid anyone?

Wow. This is good to know. I think I'll build me an appropriate deer rifle. If I neck the .505 Gibbs down to 7mm.......

LWD

I report what I've actually seen and on game I've actually shot. Given that I have shot at least a 100 deer and several hundred hogs with everything from a .22 LR (hogs) to a .458 Win. and been an observer for quite a few more, you may not value my opinion, or what I saw or know happened but that doesn't make it untrue. Believe what you want, no skin off my butt. Speed and rapidly expanding bullets are deadly on thin skinned game in my experience and many times will stop them from running more than a step.

In the past 2 seasons I have had to help track 4 deer, all shot with a 7mag. All shot at about 75yds behind the shoulder.

All 4 times the bullet zipped right through and didnt even slow down.

The last time the guy who shot the deer did it I told him to either change where he is shooting the deer or change calibers. No caliber is a gurantee that the animal will be DRT, and shooting shoulder cannons is a poor replacement for shot placement.

If the bullet "zipped right thru" he wasn't using a rapidly expanding bullet. He probably believed all the hype about 2 holes, blood trail, etc. BTW, I don't hunt with a 7 mag.

If these deer were shot behind the shoulder I.E. chest.....the zip right through BS is just that....dead deer and fast

I have heard this story my entire life.....so fast the deer don't know they have been shot

OK

My Dad told me of one of the guys on his Texas lease emptying his 7 mag at a buck every time he stopped chasing a doe during the rut and the story was that the guy said the buck just acted like he was stung by a bee. He didn't have any shells, except what was in his rifle, and another guy on the lease was watching and went over with his gun when the guy waved to him. He went over and the guy used his gun to kill the buck. Dad said when they gutted and skinned that buck out it had five holes clean through the lungs that you could cover with a small dinner plate. Turned out the guy had someone load those rounds and they were juiced up and not a proper bullet for the velocity and the smaller deer he was using them on.

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If these deer were shot behind the shoulder I.E. chest.....the zip right through BS is just that....dead deer and fast

Ted, I have probably been hunting just as long and killed maybe as many white tails as you have, and I have seen everything from DRT to 100 yard plus tracking jobs.

As has been stated, the ONLY/ABOLUTELY Dead Right There, is either a brain shot ar a spine shot. I have had lots of deer go down faster with a solid hit to the liver than a Heart & Lung shot, and I am talking about shots that could be measured in feet out to 250 yards.

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Originally posted by just-a-hunter:
Shoot a perfect broadside deer behind the shoulder with a 30-06 147gr FMJ zipping at 3000+FPS then shoot a perfect broadside deer with the same rifle and 150gr. balistic tip at 3000+FPS and see which one goes further.

Todd

I for one could not answer that in truth, as I never shoot game with FMJ's. I can tell you what happens to deer shot with ballistic tips at 3000 fps plus. A lot of blood shot meat.

My experience is mainly on hogs and deer here in Texas. That means animals between 50 and 300 lbs. I've owned and shot game with rifles of quite a few various calibers.

What I would call the ultra velocity calibers are

257 Weatherby, 100 gr, partition at 3,650 fps+

7 STW, 140 gr ballistic tip, now Accubond at 3,300 fps+

300 Win, 150 gr, ballistic tip, 150 gr. Sierra Game King@ 3,250 fps plus

300 WSM, 150 gr Spitzer, 3,250 FPS
(FWIW, I bought a Winchester Super grade from a friend who is a reloader and gunsmith. It came with 22 rounds loaded with 150 gr. Sierra Spitzers over 71.5 gr. H-414. His velocity printed on the label was 3,320 fps. I made 26 1-shot kills on hogs, deer and turkey between 2003 and 2008. Only one animal, a good buck, took more than one step. He ran about 30 yds.

300 RUM, 168 gr. Ballistic tips, 3,350 FPS+

338 RUM, 180 gr. Ballistic tips @ 3,450 fps+
(sure makes a mess of White-tail flesh under 200 yds.)
200 Gr, Ballistic Silvertips @ +/-3,200 FPS

I take my time, don't make hasty shots, distance usually 120 to 200 yds., and usually place a bullet within an inch or two of my point of aim. With the above chamberings, bullets at velocities above 3,200 FPS MV I very seldom have a hog or deer take more than a couple steps. Most time they drop at the shot. Hogs especially. Due to the nature of their anatomy, it is easy to shoot them 2" below the ear on a line between the ear and shoulder. They just drop and paddle as the spine has been severed. Deer, when broad sideI tend to shoot about an inch up and and inch behind the elbow. Straight on looking down, just in front of the point of their withers. Straight on and level, about 6” up on the neck.
At either end of the extreme I've been surprised. I've been amazed at how effectively a 100 gr. partition at 3,650 and a 180 gr. ballistic tip at 3,450 kill. I've also been amazed at the amount of blood shot meat.

I started out shooting and collecting magnums. Nowdays I shoot more in the 2,800 fps MV range. A well place shot with a 257 Roberts, 260 Rem., 7mm-08, 308, and a bullet such as a Ballistic tip or Accubond will typically do pretty much the same, with not near the amount of meat damage.

I guess if I were a trophy hunter rather than a meat hunter I would still hunt with magnums.
Like several others, I do believe the magnums give one an edge though.
Just one man' opinion.

GWB

I agree 100% with Craz

Most all of my chest shots have run. I can't remember one that hasn't and I've killed a couple deer....

For doe, I like two ribs behind the shoulder and I wait till I get that shot totaly broadside or I wait for another doe...I kill doe for meat so that shot gives me less shoulder damage

Big bucks are a differant story....shoot them when you see them any way you can.....but I prefer to break them down through the shoulders if I can

I switched years ago to Accubonds for less expansion for less meat damage and two holes

As far as FMJ.....they kill deer very good. My area in Missouri has quite a following of 7.62x39 shooters in the woods

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Originally posted by ted thorn:


I switched years ago to Accubonds for less expansion for less meat damage and two holes

+1 on that.

GWB

Yours ammo looks like mine.....lots of white tips now day and my storage of cup and core bullets are stacking up dust

My wife however runs Barnes TTSX 55 through her AR....blue tips

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For doe, I like two ribs behind the shoulder and I wait till I get that shot totaly broadside or I wait for another doe...I kill doe for meat so that shot gives me less shoulder damage

That is my normal aim point and tissue damage is minimal the critter may run a little, but I have never lost one with that shot. With lora's .257 and either 117 grain Remington Core-Locts or 115 grain Barnes Triple Shoks, the amount of meat lost at the exit wound does not amount too much.

I'm not saying he was using the "proper" bullet etc.

I am saying that using my Lacy Dog, I tracked all 4 of these deer and all 4 were shot behind the shoulder at a fairly close range and all 4 ran no less than 100yds, and 2 of them ran further than that.

My advise to him was to either shoot them in the head/neck area or use a different caliber/bullet.

Depending on a 7mag to do the work for you is a fools errand. Just as it is with any other caliber. Different bullets/ranges/loads/animals will change your results.

This page with the hydrostatic shock explanation under "Fast Killing" explains it about as well as it can be explained.

Why they're DRT

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
Yours ammo looks like mine.....lots of white tips now day and my storage of cup and core bullets are stacking up dust

My wife however runs Barnes TTSX 55 through her AR....blue tips

TSX's are few and far between with me.

I like em in the 43 gr., 53 gr. in the 222 and 70 gr. in the 223AI for shooting hogs in the head.



When I first loaded TSX's I lost a hog, shot high, took too long for a white tail shot with a 300 WSM and a Axis shot with a 7mm-08 to die. Consequently I don't shoot them much. Do load 168 gr. TSX's in 300 Win Mag.
No pretty tips though.

Best

GWB

For doe meat, I'm a head/neck shooter with a .243 or .223. No reason whatsoever to use anything bigger. Ever.

For bucks I use a bigger caliber, typically a 30cal that is designed to dump it's energy in whatever it hits and I've never been disappointed.

You can scream all day about terminal ballistics/coefficients/weight/powder etc etc but depending on the caliber to make up for your short comings as a shooter is both unethical and unbecoming a hunter.

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short comings as a shooter is both unethical and unbecoming a hunter.

I have to disagree with that statement. Whatever a peson chooses to hunt with does not have one damn thing to do with ethics or being a hunter. I think if you will check around there are quite a few people that believe using a .223 is unethical for shooting deer.

Bullet placement is now, always has been, and forever will be the key to the whole damn equation of killing stuff.

Trying to make caliber choice an "ethical"/"unethical" consideration is nonsense.

I prefer the high shoulder to the double lung if I get a broadside shot. I'll give up a little meat to keep them from running.

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Originally posted by scottfromdallas:
I was watching the hunting show "Choose your Weapon". They were hunting whitetail in S. Texas. One of the guys was using a 7mm STW. While sitting in the blind he said you make a marginal shot with a .243 or 30-06 and the deer could run 100-200 yards and make it difficult to track in the S. Texas brush country. That's why he choose the 7mm STW because it anchors them in their tracks. No tracking needed.

I guess everyone should run out and get a 7mm STW so they can drop deer in their tracks with marginal shots.

Dang, that's good to know!

Crazy,

I understand that some folks think a .223 is unethical for deer but for killig does for meat, we're talking head and neck shots, so it works.

If I were hunting trophy bucks in south TX I wouldn't consider it.

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No reason whatsoever to use anything bigger. Ever.

The above is what I was actually taking exception too from your post. When you added this:

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depending on the caliber to make up for your short comings as a shooter is both unethical and unbecoming a hunter.

, to me that compounded things. Not everyone is comfortable taking head/neck shots, and not because they are not capable of making them, they just don't like them. Personally I prefer behind the shoulder heart/lung shots but if that isn't possible I go for a dead center shoulder shot. Head/neck shots are last resort for me.

I don't like head shots on deer....won't take one myself

+1 as head shots are just too risky in that if you're off a tad or the animal moves the slightest as you squeeze the trigger you will end up with a busted jaw, etc. and a miserable death for the animal that you will rarely find when hit like that. IMHO using too small a caliber on an animal is also asking for trouble in many areas where tracking is very difficult, but I hate to use the word unethical because CHC will jump all over me, LOL!

Many years ago, some gun writes were saying that the 243 Winchester is marginal for deer, as it does not have the energy required to kill them.

The same write would say a 357 Magbnum is percect for deer!!??

If I had a dollar for everytime some redneck said " A (Insert Caliber) will knock a deer on its ass every time!" I would be a wealthy man. I have even seen the great caliber debate come to blows. Funny stuff!

I don't watch any of that crap. Neither supoosed hunting shows nor "reality" shows. I've got more importsnt things to do with my time. Total waste of time & bandwidth.
Bear in Fairbanks