Hey John, Just going to name one of many. I do believe Ike was "ultimately responsible" for a good number of enemy deaths and even won a fairly important War prior to his being elected. (Thanks Ike!)

It was mentioned by someone not to base your vote on just one issue such as guns or hunting. So lets review just a few of Kerry's issues.

Where did he stand on the war in Iraq? He has openly criticized Bush for the war in Iraq.... Didn't he vote to move troops into Iraq? He has constantly voted against building the military.... In a recent speech did he not promise to protect the U.S. with every bid of military might we have? If he had it his way there wouldn't be any military might.....Kerry believes in letting the U.N. resolve our terrorist problems....but waite....he was going to use military might wasn't he? He claims to be a practicing Catholic.....doen't he defend abortion, same sex marriage, and taking God out of our schools? He claims he is going to improve the unimployment rate, but he also wants to raise minimum wage to $7.00 an hour, sounds good doesn't it?....keep in mind most of the business in the U.S. is small business (only a few employees) how many of those businnesses can afford to give that big of a raise to all their employees....the result could be more lay offs and higher prices...but wait, that can't be right because Kerry also says he is going the stimulate the economy and bring us out of ressesion.

I hope I was able to bring some other issues to serface aside from guns and hunting so that we wouldn't have to vote against Kerry on just one issue.



God...family...country.

CDH: Did you service in Vietnam? Gulf War I or II? What branch of the Armed Forces did you serve with and where did you serve? I makes me sick to hear people who never served, or worse, never served and complains about those who did. The things I read on this forum are un-American.

jorge: I always agree with you on hunting and rifles and you are always professional in your posts...but I have to take exception with this political debate. George Bush did not serve his country honorably. He did not do what I did, which was not hard...volunteer, out of respect for my father and my country, show up, go where you are told to go, and do what you are told to do, for the United States of American...and here we are bad mouthing Kerry, who was wounded in combat in Vietnam. People question his wounds, for Christ sake. How can people do that without feeling shame? What if we questioned the heroics of Bush the elder? He had peopled killed with him in combat and had planes shot out from under him....(what if we thought he simply wrecked the planes and killed his crew mates to get out of having to fight?) That sounds horrible and that is what it sounds like when people attack Kerry's honorable service. Bush the elder is a man and veteran to be respected, even if he is a republican, because he did what was right and honorable. I think it shows that Americans not only want to block Vietnam out, they want to block the veterans of that war out. I served for 2 years and 9 months in Vietnam, between 1970 and 1973, and everytime I hear all the people here support draft dodgers (Bush and Cheney), and bad mouth someone who actually showed up, it makes me sick.

If being a liberal means going to war when your country tells you to, the I am a liberal. If being a liberal means showing up for duty, then I am a liberal. If being willing to killing enemies of the United States is libreal, then I am a liberal. If you don't want to vote for Kerry, then don't. But don't bad mouth a veteran. At least Nixon showed up for duty. George Bush is a disgrace to this country. And he is working at destroying the United States. If he wants to have Americans die for his cause, then he is pretty damn good at it. Lots of them are being killed. Lots more are being torn apart and surviving, I guess. I am willing to bet that there are going to be a lot of Iraq veterans coming home sooner or later that will want to run for the U.S. Senate and I am willing to bet a lot of them will sound a lot like John Kerry....they have been lied to by their government (Bush/Cheney) and thier friends and family have died because of those lies.

The only time I was able to buy and use more guns than I could handle was while Bill Clinton was President. Damn few Americans dying needlessly. I look forward to those days again.

Blue,



I was very glad that huge sums of money was spent on the funeral of Pres Reagan. As far as I am concerned he was the greatest President of my lifetime and I had a tremendous amount of respect for him and felt that the country and the rest of the world suffered a great loss that day.



RWJ,



I have to disagree with you for the most part. I work with MANY (Thousands)of those that were severely wounded in Vietnam and more recent battles and for the most part those that I spend most of my time with are far from supporters of John Kerry. They understand what it means to fight for THEIR country and they don't believe in John Kerry's idea of what America should be especially when it comes to the worthless and corrupt United Nations. They do not believe it is ok to sit back and watch as leaders kill and torture their own people. That is what really P**** me off about most of the Liberals, they seem to be content to allow people like Suddam Hussein and many others to just murder anyone that disagrees or combs their hair incorrectly, contrary to what they preach about human rights. They just want to talk, talk and talk but not step up to the plate and ultimately put the gloves on. Granted, Republicans have not stepped up to every issue either but when you look at the record they have put their money where their mouth is more often, hands down.





Doug

talking about Bush being discraseful? What about when Kerry fripped off a bunch of Vietnam veterans who were protesting at a Vietnam war memorial. I have the utmost respect and honor for anyone who fought for our country, but Kerry is not showing the dignaty it takes to be president. My brother served in the Gulf war in the nineties, and if he was still with us I know he would be anti Kerry also.



God...family...country

I'm obviously not going to change your mind, but you are so clouded by hatred of Bush you can't see the facts. Please READ MY POST again and READU UNFIT FOR COMMAND. Kerry had an agenda and his Purple hearts ARE INDEED QUESTIONABLE> Read the book for chissakes, The MD who treated him says his last wound was BOGUS. Why is Bush destroying this country? Do YOU want a country where the Goverment takes care of EVERYTHING for you? Kerry voted to raise taxes 350 times, he's voted FOR every Gun control measure, HE COMMITTED TREASON upon his return from Vietnam. I'll say it again, BENEDICT ARNOLD was also a "war hero" before he sold us out. And one more thing about Bush and his service: Once again all you are doing is parroting what the liberal demcrats are saying. During Bush's time in the NG, the Air Guard WAS being sent to Vietnam AND we were embroiled in a Cold War with the Soviets were guys like him were on constant 24/7 strip alerts. And your comment about Clinton and guns? The ONLY reason people bought guns is because they wanted to buy as many as they could BEFORE he confiscated them all. HIS ADMINISTRATION and under Janet Reno are ON RECORD in saying that the SECOND AMENDMENT does not pertain to an individual's right to keep and bear arms. AND guess WHO ALSO supported that claim: YOU BUDDY KERRY. He's a traitor and will drive this country into socialism. GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD. It's obvious that I'm not changing ANYBODY'S mind here so i think I'm done with this. jorge

"He's a traitor and will drive this country into socialism. GET IT THROUGH YOUR HEAD."

Well said Jorge!

Doug

rwj, you must be way over sensitive about something--looking back for verification, I could find nothing said against US veterans. Where did you come up with that slam? My god, lad, you have a warped view. It is people with that view that scare hell out of me. Supporting people like Kerry is THE way to finally destroy this great country. Clinton tried and, indeed accomplished a lot in that endeavor, and Kerry would love to continue the push toward socialism (and communism) which is a direct opposite of what this country has been to become what it is, and directly opposite of what the framers and writers of the Constitution and Declaration intended for US citizens. It truly amazes me that people can become so blind and gullible as you, to swallow this idea of socialism. We have watched it's regular and continuous failure around the world, we have spent billions of dollars fighting it and liberating people from it, then we have people like you that swallow the same line and want it here. Simply blows my mind that any halfway educated person, let alone a US citizen that has experienced freedom, could support such. Indeed, I am not blind; I understand why people worldwide fall for the socialist story--it sells as a utopia. Problem is, it requires a factor that is non-human for that utopian picture to develop, that being initiative, the desire to succeed, to get ahead, to make ones life better. I truly feel sorry for you, and certainly for the younger folks of this country that your thought train type will deprive of freedom--the freedom you have enjoyed, and fought for (for which you certainly have justification for being proud of). How can you be so blind? So gullible?

Very correct, and glad you mentioned it, Writer.

From the Spring of 1968 to the fall of 1974 I commanded a 12 foot row boat with a 6 hp Johnson outboard. During that time I patroled Gardners Lake Horse Pond and the Connecticut River. I when on search and catch missons, brought to bag a lot of trout Big and Small mouth bass shad and Calico Bass. I and my crew mates ate a lot of fish. Oh there were also a bunch of night crabing raids over on Jordan cove. Had more that one crab boil mid night fish frys and eating moms blueberry pie. In all my dealing with people since I never said anything about my former life as a Row Boat Skipper. Or did I ever protest other Row boat skippers when I didn't have the boat anymore. Nor did I ever accuse amy other row boat skippers and crews of taking more fish than the law allowed or operating their boats out side of the rules.

This is a little tonque and cheek here, John Kerry is the one who keeps bring up Viet Nam and all of the junk he told to every body who would give him two minutes of TV time. Now he dose not like it much when there are some who was also there and are calling him on it. Kerry's problem is his own Voting Record and his own mouth. He is nothing of consequence. Just another failed Senator that thinks he can be King. Well in all the days that they said and say all kinds of things about President Bush, he never had Lawyers send letters to those individuals threating law suits and what have you. If the Charges are baseless as he says then pay no mind to it. My hunch is that the Swift Boat Vets know what a phoney this fellow is, and they are calling him on it.

And till I said something none of you every knew I owned a boat and motor. Or a Spinning Rod.

kerry said, if u want an assault rifle join the military.

if he gets in, we are in bigg trouble.

dwhunter: You sound like a good man doing good things, even if I disagree with your politics. I got sucked into this discussion when I shouldn't have. At my VFW Post here in north Anchorage (Post 10252) I never hear the hateful political arguements I read here.....We support all our troops... Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine and Coast Guard... regardless of the politics and that is what we should do. What people are saying here does not help anything, including what I said.

It was liberals who spit on me when I came home from Viet Nam. liberals can kiss my ass.

RWJ,

I take it from a cursory reading of your posts that you served in some capacity in the armed forces. I did not--because I was not called. I registered for the draft and was classified as 1H--but Pres Nixon pulled us out of Viet Nam when I was 18. Mr Kerry served but apparently without honor. Honor is something about which he obviously knows nothing. To serve honorably is one thing...to serve for the furtherance of one's career/agenda is another thing altogether. To lie about one's brothers in combat is as low as I can imagine. It is a good thing I am not Atty Gen--I would at the VERY least have Mr. Kerry investigated for the very war crimes he has admitted to. I have absolutely NO respect for that for which Mr. Kerry stands. This nation is poorer for having him as a citizen. Should he become President, the nation will suffer far more than you can imagine that we have suffered under Mr. Bush. If looking out for the little guy means making him less independent and more dependent on the government then the liberal, lying senator from Mass is your man. Additionally, it appears that truth is the latest casualty in this political war.

mike416rigby: You sound like a very bitter and unhappy man. I feel sorry for you. I am not a liberal. But I am a Democrat. And have been since Nixon was president. You should join a VFW post nearest you and help out on the 4th of July parades, be respectful of your elders, and support all veterans. We have one WWII veteran at our Post and he is a joy to be around. I am so proud of him I cannot stand it. And you know what, I have no idea who he thinks is a great or good president. And it doesn't matter. Take some Paxil and calm down.

Well, if you are a democrat, may I assume that you'll vote for a liberal? Curious.

Kerry is every bit against us "little people" owning and using (read keeping and bearing) our guns as Bill Clinton is for getting into the panties of any single woman within arms' reach. Kerry is a bullshit liar of the first magnitude. The reason we have the electoral college over the popular vote is to ensure a solid victory-- something you don't often see in countries that use the parliamentary system, such a Italy, Israel and India. Who wants to choose from 3000 candidates, as the voters must often do in India? It is far easier to choose between two and the occasional wacko like Ralph Nader than between dozens or hundreds.

You may assume that I will not vote for George Bush.

Doc: To me liberal means looking out for the little guy and that sums it up for me. Liberal means supporting health care for those who do not have it and providing the best education to young Americans who cannot afford it. The United States should be healthy and educated. The United States also needs a strong armed force for protection. Together, I think we need health, education, and security. Period. These things require money. This is what makes us great and strong: we are smart, healthy, and armed. I can tolorate the rantings of people I do not like...I do it all the time. That is no big deal. In fact I think it is the whole point: people are allowed to say what they want, including Jane Fonda (how much do you think she shaped American politics?..not much).

As far as deaths go, I use Vietnam and the presidents who managed that war as my benchmarks: I measure presidents by the number of Americans that die on their watch: LBJ and RMN failed in my book. I served under Nixon. Ford and Carter both were timid and for good reason. Reagan lost 250 Marines (+/-) in one event in Lebanon and he got the point...he could not stomach the loss of American lives either...I did not really like Reagan (but he was president of the United States after all)..but I liked it when he bombed Lybia. GHW Bush was strong but couldn't make up his mind on what he wanted to do. Some died on Bush's watch but not many. Clinton....I liked him then and I like him now (not to take a cheap shot, but Bush should get an intern..it would do him and the country some good). Clinton believed in a healthy, educated, and strong America. The economy loved a balanced budget..just like we have to have in our own homes. And very few Americans were being killed. Then came Bush. It has been death and mayham since he has been in office. We are back to LBJ and RMN ( lies and dead Americans). That sums it up for me.

RWJ: Your view of the "facts" are so distorted is laughable. IT WAS THE REPUBLICAN CONGRESS THAT FORCED CLINTON INTO A BALANCED BUDGET. LOOK IT UP. Where in the Constitution does it say that *I* have to pay for someone else's healthcare and education? George Bush signed the Prescription Drug Bill that I disagree with. And why do we need that? Becasue of the TRIAL LAWYERS and their frivolous law suits driving up health costs. Incidentally they are the biggest contributors to the democrats. Education? Bush's education Bill was FORTY PECENT HIGHER than Clinton's.

Further, if you "gauge" presidents by number of people they get killed then surely you must not be a democrat, Woodrow Wilson and Franklin Roosevelt are surely the undisputed champs in that regard.



So if you want to be associated with the party that wants to turn this country into a welfare state at the expense of those who work, go ahead. the party of Ted Kennedy ( you know him the murderer/drunk/cheater-kicked-out-of Harvard slob) Barnie Frank, Michael Moore, Whoppie Goldberg and LARRY FLYNT, you go right ahead ( oh yeah I forgot you said "Bush should get an intern" which clearly shows your moral fiber just like that dope-smoking-coward Clinton). You claim to be patriotic and love the military? Well as an active duty Naval Officer with over 24 years of service, let me tell you waht Clinton did to us: He's on record as "loathing" us, he dangerously reduced the size of the military, he turned it into a "social experiment" with homosexuals and yes WOMEN IN COMBAT, he destroyed us!. So please, don't try to wrap yourself in the mantle of being a Patriot because you are not. We in the military can smell false patriotism a mile away. jorge

If you are a gunowner and love to hunt, Kerry will prove not to be an ally. I don't trust him -- for a whole host of reasons -- and I especially don't trust his lawsuit-monger running-mate, John Edwards. These guys are true socialists, and if you value your freedom, value lower taxes, desire much-needed tort reform (the fact that the Trial Lawyers' Association is behind Kerry/Edwards speaks volumns), don't vote for this ticket. These two cowboys claim to be for the "little guy", well the truth is, the "little guy" represents pawns on the chess board for these two. For example, Edwards made a fortune on extravagant medical malpractice suits representing "the little guy".

I vote republican. Period...........

AD

Just a quick post to express my appreciation that you guys have kept this debate pretty clean so far. Its an easy topic for arguments to degenerate to name calling, etc, and I am glad that no one has stooped to that level as I for one find this type of discussion educational.

Thanks,
Canuck

rwj, you indeed do seem to have your eyes rather tightly closed. Not once in this entire thread has anyone bashed a military person, per se, nor the USA, yet you accuse several of doing such. Read what Jorge said again (and again), as he probably said it best, but several others have laid the facts before your eyes as well. You seem bent on ignoring those facts.

Mr. Day, I dare say that neither Kerry or Edwards are cowboys, and neither probably knows the first thing about cows or horses. That is a rather offensive grouping to many of us.

Arts, your point is well-taken!

AD

nope--they're not cowboys for sure----but they both sure do know alot about pigs---I mean pork barrels!

rwj, here is some food to chew on:

Way back in 1787, a Scottish history professor by the name of Alexander Tyler, in writing about "The Fall of the Athenian Republic", had this to say:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse (generous gifts) from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship."

He further stated:
"The average age of the worlds greatest civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through this sequence. From bondage to spiritual faith; from spiritual faith to great courage; from courage to liberty; from liberty to abundance; from abundance to complacency; from complacency to apathy; from apathy to dependence; from dependence back into bondage."

rwj, I wish to ask you just exactly where you feel your desire to have education and healthcare provided to you falls in the above?

Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law (St. Paul) observed the following regarding the 2000 election:

Population of counties won by Gore, 127 million; won by Bush, 143 million.
Square miles of country won by Gore, 580,000; won by Bush, 2,427,000.
States won by Gore, 19; by Bush, 29.
Murder per 100,000 residents in the counties won by Gore, 13.2; by Bush, 2.1.
Prof. Olson adds, "The map of the territory Bush won was mostly the land owned by the people of this great country. Not the citizens living in cities owned by the government and living off the government..."

Incidentally, Olson thinks that the US is now between the complacency and apathy phases of democracy, although he believes 40 percent of the nation's population has already reached the dependency phase.

Where are you, rwj?

Blue, we not only need tort reform, but we need it in the worst way, and the incredible health care and medical insurance costs we face in this country are a solid economic indicator of that reality. Bush's proposed $250,000 limit on medical malpractice settlement is a good place to start.

We also need more extensive tax reform, including the repeal of the death tax. None of which Kerry and Edwards support. It would also be nice to give Bush four more years so that he can have a crack at appointing some conservative U.S. Supreme Court justices.

AD

Bush,please take it as its meant
your attitude - to me- sounds simple minded,no insight.Allow me to explain:Assume liability to professionals and business is not due to criminal behavior,but today mostly a result of "bad outcome".Live aint perfect - yet,although our government surely tries hard to assure it
You are absolutely correct,that the lawyer speaks for the client,promissing her millions ,because of the system she developed.
Liability lawsuits are a lottery game without even buying the ticket-its free.If you win you get maybe 30% of the loot,the lawyer gets 70%,and after a while she can run for congress or president.
What does not seem evident to you,is the price to society,you and me:business has to insure itself against these locuses by buying expensive insurance,paying huge amounts of earnings to the insurance industry.That cost-if the business wants to stay alive- will have to be added to the price of the product you buy - nothing free in this world - unless you are on welfare .Some products cannot shoulder the steep insurance cost,so they stop to be manufactured, certain services are considered so expensive that people wont offer them anymore to the one that needs it.If you are a neurosurgeon , caring -for free- for an injured motorcycle accident victim on welfare,good chance you will get sued for "less than perfect expected outcome".
I can go on and on,the system is always the same.
Now you sayeth the client is to blame?
The lawyer is the professional that is supposed to evaluate the case ,decide on its merit and represent the case - fairly.Alas ,not in this country,it has changed to :lets go fishing and see what we can extract,cost to you:nada, cost to the insured: thousands to millions,the sky is the limit.

When you present to a physician and ask for a frontol lobotomy because you feel it would improve your character,the physician- as the professional-will decline - I think
What would a lawyer do?

All right.. you caught me with my own words....I will put it this way, I am a liberial that is willing to defend my country, volunteer in the Armed Forces of the United States, serve my country in war and peace time, and kill those who would hurt or harm Americans. And this is not hypothetical. I put my money where my mouth is. The person I was responding to when I said "I am not a liberal" painted all liberals as something bad (someone who would spit at a returning veteran) and I wanted to distinguish myself from the type of person he was describing.

Blue,your note sounds pretty good and convincing.It probably is also factual the way you see it : [the facts of their case will control the outcome of their case ]

---

Thats for example how the hard working ,excellent lawyers of O.J. proved their case for their client,right?Merely by the facts and solid evidence

The facts are -in general opposite to your assertion.
US law or its application has little to do with justice.
The trial lawyer lobbby is one of the largest pushers of the democratic lawmakers in congress,itself packed by lawyers who coudnt make it in their profession.

Yes there are ,probably many- good and maybe even honest lawyers,or maybe thats a contradiction in logic
The cost and burden of the busy activity of trial lawyers provides rare justice though,mostly greenbacks for themselves.

US law,created by these "educated minds" itself is an aberration: who would find liability for a company selling tobacco when everyone knows that it is bad for the consumer etc.Who forces me to eat a greasy hamburger,to sue on later on?

No,sorry blue,I see the profession for what it isrime benefactor of what they created,allegedly for the good of society.
Undoubtedly good lawyers are hard working and excellent minds,as they have to compete against each other distorting facts,oh sorry,presenting facts to win their case
Because ,winning their case these days ,is what counts,not let justice prevail.
For every winner there is a looser,and in the middle is the nice income of a profession that created this mess.Destroying people and products for their personal gain.
You see Blue,if I get sued,and "win",meaning should never have been sued,which I understand to beis 80% of liability suits,I actually won nothing.My "defense" lawyer on the other hand is quite happy with his income while my liability premium is jacked up another 20%.Or maybe I will just quit offering desired or necessary servises?

Dont you think that the opposing lawyer that brought a suit and "lost" should now pay my costs?

John The Greek,

Fuck you and the Bison you rode in on. Go ahead and vote for wild-eyed anti-gun nuts like the girlie-man twins or any other Democrats you can name. You obviously care little or nothing for your freedoms. You deserve whatever you get. The rest of us, however, do not deserve to have our freedoms threatened by brainless, spineless twits like you.