It is certain to become reality and all factory rifle makers will eliminate the belted magnum cases from the list of cartridges they will sell. It may take them a while, just as the American auto makers have all but eliminated rear wheel drive cars for front wheel drive. The belted magnum case is not viewed by factory rifle makers as cost effective and will eventually discontinue them totally. To many options dictate more tooling equipment and that cuts into prfit margins. Less is more in the business world, no matter what product is being sold. Make them faster and give them less to choose from for maximum profit margin.

Also as far as I can see from Winchester's '04 catalog they've dropped the 223 Remington from their line for their 223wssm this year. They do have an amazing looking 70wsm custom with pre-64 type action though http://www.winchester-guns.com/prodinfo/catalog/itemimagedetail.asp?cat_id=535&type_id=950&cat=001C&item=535950155 They also had some 338 RUM's in their custom line as well.



Matt

The rifle world is changing fast. It appears to me that Remington and Winchester (USRAC) are trying to redirect new rifle sales by eliminating some of the older, well-established chambering options. If buyers are pretty much forced into selecting rifles chambered for new cartridges, then they'll need to become re-established from the ground up with new ammo, new brass, and so forth. The whole industry benefits from this sort of activity.

Then later (wait and see!), they'll take another turn and offer "limited" runs of the older belted magnums, especially if a name gunwriter or two turns out copy which takes a new look at the older cartridges, and then reaches the brilliant conclusion that there was some sort of benefit to the belted-case concept after all........

I notice that Winchester no longer offers the wonderful old .270 Winchester in the Sporter LT and Super Grade versions of the Model 70, which to me is a travesty. They still offer the .25-06, but not the .270 (!), and I'll flat guarantee that the .25-06 has NEVER approached the sales volumn of the .270 Win. in any given sales period. The reason? USRAC and Winchester is trying to get buyers who are interested in a .270 to buy the .270 WSM instead of the .270 Win., pure and simple.

Personally, I'm sticking with the older cartridges until brass becomes no longer available, or until I can no longer hunt - whichever comes first........

AD

M70 LT not offered in .270!?!? The Model 70 and the .270 go together like ham and eggs, Mom and Apple Pie.

I just checked their website and you�re right � the .270 is not shown for the LT! It is still offered in left hand configuration, although I see that now they offer the left hand LT�s in the WSM calibers as well. Hmm, is that (left handed) handwriting on the wall?

Okay, I know what happened. Some marketing fellow was cleaning out an old storage closet and found some folders dated 1964. He read those and and got a bright idea�

What is the New Haven marketing translation of the old redneck saying, �Hey y�all, watch this!�?

Remington is flip flopping chambering due to Winchesters WSM chamberings I think.The Remington short mags got the short end of the deal.The Winchester short mags took the wind out of the Remington Ultra mags.I chatted with Craig Boddington on outdoorbest the guns and ammo site last night.He see its as a nightmare for gun store owners because of 500 calibers of ammo.He also forsaw alot of these new calibers disapearing quickly.There is no way to stock all the new calibers and old calibers.I figured in the mid 1980s that the caseless ammo would replace the brass cased ammo by now.I know the 375 H&H will make it way over a 100.The 416 Rigby was beltless almost 100 years ago.Its funny these new chambering dont do much more than the old ones its just in a new package.The 300 WSM is the short 300 win mag.The 300 ulta mag is the same as the 60 year old Weatherby 300.Its the most new calibers I have ever seen in my 41 years in such a short time.It use to be if each company brought out one new caliber a year it was news.I know these calibers will make it the 223,243,270,7 mm rem mag,30-30,308 win,30-06,300 win mag,338 win mag,375 H&H,416 rem mag ,458 winchester .I think that other calibers are up for grabs.It makes it hard to find you factory ammo when they dont have the supper short,short .283 and the supper long extra powerful .383 that you just bought.There is a guy on here who bought new Remington 6.5 mag could not find brass or shells.If you think back rember how many 5mm Rem mag rifles they sold now no ammo is made for it.The 357 Rem maxium is handloading only now if brass stops from Remingtong you have a big heavy 357 mag.I see that Weatherby chambers no short mags or ultra mags.I wish someone over here would make their brass.

It becomes a tragedy when all-time popular cartridges like .223 Rem, .270 Win & .338 Win Mag become marginalized by new offerings. I'm all for the new stuff, but surely not if it means less choice for the established cartridges! This is garbage!
- mike

Logic would suggest that if the gun shop keeps the same total amount of ammo i stick then the variety in each calibre will be far less. Perhaps there is a positive in this as it might mean more shooters begin to reload

Mike

We are all discussing something that is uniquely American...for better or worse. We are the great innovators and experimentors of the planet Earth. Its what we do best. Sometimes we go nuts and it doesn't make sense...this approach to life and success is hard on traditionalists.

But just look at what our incredible, energetic system of innovation is offering all of us...choice, choice, choice...!!!

Its not about guns...its about pushing the envelope and TRYING to make products better, even if they are good enough already. What do we have to do to get all this? NOTHING!!

Now, nobody asked us if we wanted all these new products, innovations, experiments and hype...but the big picture is that its a good thing that America is good at this sort of thing...its what we do best.

I was going to get a Weatherby Ultra lightweight 338-06 but I see its gone in this years catalog.I thought Remington would make it a factory chambering for sure.The 7 mm STW didnt last long not in the Remington but Weatherby still has it.It good to have new cartridges but not 5 of the same thing.It was suprising to see 270 WSM and 300 WSM do as good as they have done but if you already have a 270 and a 300 win mag there is alot of over lap.I hunted with 243 and 30-06 starting off them got 338 wim mag and never went back to smaller stuff.I had a 300 win mag and it had a big over lap with 30-06.It was flatter shooting but didnt kill any faster so I gave it to my dad.I have a bunch of 338 win mags thats why I was wondering about whats was happening with it.My Ruger all weather 338 win mag is one of the most accurate guns I own.I had to pay 3 times as much to get something more accurate and that was my Weatherby Accumark 338-378 Weatherby.I use to buy guns on inpulse when I was younger.I now sit back and wait to see if a chambering makes it over 5 years before I buy a new chambering.I just hope people dont buy guns that the ammo is no longer made in 5 years.The 338 win mag is about the best all around gun for North American Game.

There was a time when the 250-3000 Savage was one of the hottest numbers going. Undoubtedly, more than one gunwriter scoffed at the apparent "need" for such velocities, and surely some sought to label it a "barrel burner". Stories were told far and wide about taking virtually every game animal with it, etc. In was chambered by savage (among others) for many decades. Now, most new shooters haven't even heard of this round, and those that have, usually scoff at its pathetic ballistics.

Are the 270 and 338 WM (and who knows what else ) themselves headed for a slow decline into obsolesence? Hard to imagine, but maybe the 338 WM is like the 300 Sav and the 338 RUM is like the 308, and on down the line with RUMs; while it appears that the short mags are pulling a 284, except with teeth. Who needs a SA 308 when you can have a SA '06?

I am just not liking how this is shaping up.

I talked to a winchester rep friend of mine that said that there are few new rifle owners coming into the market. And most of the rifle owners that use multible guns have most of the standard calibers that they like. Therefore to generate sales they keep coming up with new calibers. It is very easy for the manufactures to do this. It only requires a new reamer.

I dont see the 338 win mag going away.Everyone chambers it now except Remington.I hope the 264 win mag comes back some way .I bought a new Ruger Stainless 264 win mag out of a small run they made last year.Its the second most accurate gun I have .I shot a 155 gr lapula bullet into a 3/8 group at 200 yards I was impressed.It was a chambering that was way ahead of its day like the 220 swift.The 338 win mag has grown from a few rifle to many.I see more 338 win mags in Alaska than about anything else.Yep there are alot less hunters if we dont get some kids hunting all guns will go away.I let my hunting buddy I borrow from a friend he is 14 now ,shoot any of my guns he wants.He was 11 when he shot 2 caribou with one shot with my 338-378 Weatherby at 400 yards!Its that buyer inpulse thing that gets you.I stick to what is good.If I like it I might buy two of them so a friend can try one out also.I let one of my friend use my 338 wim mag Stainless Model 70 with a boss .He had always used 30-06.He loves that 338 win mag and has shot 5 moose with 5 shots.I was inpressed with the 338 win mag from the first thing I shot with it.In the Rugers with heavier barrels it kicks straight back.I love all the 338 win mags I ever bought.If I see a Ruger at a good price in 338 win mag I always get it .I usually sell them to a friend or give them to friends who have helped me.

I agree with Denton that Remington will lose in total sells. If Winchester is making a similar move with the 7mm they may experience some of the same.

DRG.416: I agree with you. The .338WM is perhaps the favorite big game cartridge in Alaska. The .300WM (another belted cartridge), and the .30-06. (beltless) are also there on top with the .338. I saw the .338-06 on the Weatherby site not too long ago, in the Ultra Lightweigh series. I think they are producing the .338-06 in two weights or series.

-----------------



I don't think the belted cartridges are going to disappear just because people want "short and fat" cartridges just like the WSM (or no belts on the cases), simply because what kills game is not the case, but the bullet. Regardless of what shape the case has (belt or not), a .300WM, .300WSM, or .300RUM still use the same bullet. The belt there is never noticed by the shooter, and the equipment used to create the belted cases is already there.



I don't think the .338's, .375 H&H, some .416's, and the .458's used in Alaska and Africa are going to lose their belts. There have been great looking cartridges such as the Dakota line, but hunters have not switched to the beltless Dakota rifles just because these don't have belts.

Don't go making fun of my .250-3000! Why use the needlessly powerful 9.3x62? My 9.3x57 will do just fine!

From the few people "in the business" I get to talk to it seems that there is better margin in ammo than in rifles. If you have relatively exclusive production of a new caliber, you get a little better price. Remember, anything over the minimum is pure profit. So far the general gun buying population is supporting the maketing theory.

They may be right in their decision. I am certainely not a sorcerer at devining the future, LOL. Time will tell.

It might also mean that Remington is going to try there hand at a .338 Short mag with their name on it. I hope so, I think that would make a fun little rifle.

Its funny when commersial failures and old chamberings such as the 250 savage,25-35 winchester,264 winchester,7x57,284 winchester,35 Whelen,375 winchester sell lot hot cakes on the used gun market.I almost got a 25-35 last weekend for $200 26" octagon barrel ,I lost him at a show.These so called failures and good older chamberings dont last long on gunsamerica.They are all good chamberings.The 338-06 is no longer listed as chambering in 2004 Weatherby catalog.I wanted one too.I think When I was chatting with Craig Boddington on outdoors best he said he thought there would be no 338wsm.There are a ton of 338 out there no need for the same balistics.I went from using the 300 win mag to 338 win mag there is a big difference in killing and knock down power.The 338 win mag is one fine Elk gun .If you already have a 338 win mag there is no need for a 338 Remington Ultra mag.You should jump on up to a 338-378 Weatherby to make a difference between the two.I dont want to loose any classic chamberings to something new then that poop out.The 270 Weatherby is faster than the 270 wsm but its not popular but it has hung on.The .308 diameter is full of enough cambering to last 50 more years as is the .284, 7mm.Its great to have new stuff to play with but the classics will survive this to ripe old ages.

How much extra velocity does the .338 RUM give over the .338win? How about the .375RUM over the .375H&H. Thanks!
Great forumn BTW

Abdul

The 338 Ultra is about 400 fps faster than the 338Win.

The 375 Ultra can be loaded about 300 fps faster than the old H&H.

This doesn't seem to mean anything to the other guys on this post but I think these are two of the finest cartridges ever introduced. Myself and others that hunt with the 338 and 375 Ultras find far better performance offered beyond 300 yards. If you like heavy for caliber bullets and don't mind a little extra recoil these are among the most effective tools on the planet.

The 300 H&H (good though it may be) fell from favor long ago and so it should have. There are more efficient and powerful cartridges that make it obsolete.

So it is with the 338 and 375 Ultra Mags. They are vastly superior to the old guard in every way but recoil. They may be a little ahead of their time but that to will change.

Jamie

The 338 Ultra mag has to kick when loaded above 2800 fps with 250 gr bullet.The 338 win mag in heavy mag from Federal goes 2800 fps with 250 gr bullet also.I see lots of used 338 ultra mags for sale that have been shot 3 times thats it.I heard on longrangehunter.com that 300 gr serria bt match king really kicks out of Sendero 338 ultra not the straw barrel 338 ultra.Remington puts too thin of barrels on its 338s.I shoot my 338-378 with 250 gr bullet at 3150 fps its alright with break .I shot 300 grs at about 2900 fps they were not that fun to shoot even with break on.The reloading manuals show 2800 as max loads in 338 ultra mag with 250 gr bullets.It has to have high pressure when its at or above 3000 fps.I met two guys that had 338 ultra mags hunting caribou this year.They used 180 gr boatail bullets and had to shot the caribou 4 times each at 300 yards.I told them they should at least shoot 225 gr .Most of the bullets built for .338 caliber were made for the 338 win mag speeds.I only trust 250 gr Nosler bullets in my 338-378 weatherby.I only wish they had gone with full length 300 ultra mag case when making the 338 ultra mag.If i ever wear out one of my 338-378 barrels I am putting a 30" barrel on it for the best possible burning of all the powder I put in that thing.The 338 Ultra mag is good but I dont want to see the 338 win mag go away even in the straw barrel Remingtons.I think it was 1988 or so when the started chambering the 338 win mag.I guess people want faster and faster till there is no faster.I did and I love the 338-378 Weatherbys I got.Its adds 300 yards to the starting point of the 338 win mag.I bet Elmer Keith is smiling in Heaven at all the .338s now.I think Reminton and Browning are only two chambering 338 Ultra mags.I have not seen if Browning is chambering 338 win mag for 2004.I hope they are I just saw a 338 Win mag BAR I would not mind having.I am suprised 338 win mag didnt make it in Browning BLR.The 338 caliber is more popular than ever but I dont want the 338 win mag to get run over in the process.I wish Ruger would chamber its magnum action in the big 338s that would be awesome.The ultra mags are as big as you can fit safely in the Remington and Winchester actions.Reminton is trying to keep the fire under them so they dont go away .It will be interesting too see what they want us to buy next.

makeminestainless

I am comparing the 338 and 375 Ultras to the 338 win and 375 H&H.
The 340 and 375 Wbys are also great choices. No argument there.
I agree that Remington barrels are too light on the Ultras. In my opinion the stocks are also a poor design. I am only referring to the properties of the cartridges.

My Ultra mag rifles are semi custom (new stocks, barrels and blueprinted actions). With a good stock and about 9 pound complete I find the level of recoil to be very acceptable for the performance generated by the Ultras.

As to the guys that can't shoot a 338 Ultra in a ten pound Sendero (scoped) I doubt the recoil is any less in a 8.5 pound 338 Win. Draw your own conclusions there.

Some guys never learn to manage recoil properly and are better served with a 30-06.

Jamie

The Sendero guys were pushing the 300 gr Serria Match king 3000 fps somehow out of the 338 ultra mag.I shot them out of my 338-378 at about 2850 and they kicked pretty good.I didnt see those Vanguard WSM s but looked back and saw them.Weatherby still chambers the 7mm STW and Remington quit.I shot a Sendero in 7 mm STW I didnt like shooting it.It felt like a hammer hitting my shoulder .The 338 win mag and 338-378 weatherby and my 416 rem mags are alot funner to shoot.I hardly ever see any one talk about Browning A bolts on here.I looked at Browning A bolt in 338 ultra mag but barrel is pretty thin.It has to heat up very quickly.If you kill something on the first shot I guess thats no worry.They are smooth and I like the tang safety except you have to take it off to unload it.

Thats what I said about 3000 fps out of 338 ultra mag.I got 2850 fps with my 338-378 with 300 gr .The reloading books show 2600 as max load with 300 gr and 338 ultra mag.I already locked up my 338-378 trying to get 3250 out of it with 250 gr Nosler bullet.I bet its hell on brass and the gun at that pressure and speed.I dont trust internet loads I go with reloading books I dont want pieces of bolt in my head.If I see a ejector mark I back off my loads.I was so glad to get my rifle open again with no damage .I warned another guy and some how his hot loads made his barrel come unscrewed a little I have never heard of that.Its not worth hot loads to get an extra 100 fps.

Well I believe what you are seeing is the big companies are doing what they can to entice the younger crowd; their new and future buyers.

For example, me. I'm 24, and I want to buy a rifle. The last thing I want to buy is a 30-06. Why? Because the darn thing is outdated and almost 100 years old, every old timer has one, I need to have something better. Why not a .300 Win Mag? Because I can have a .300 WSM, which is lighter and handier, or a .300 RUM, which has more power, why as a consumer should I settle for less and go with the old design? The reason they designed these new one was because the old ones weren't keeping up with the times right?

It's just a modern marketing applied to the field of firearms. I don't get any time to hunt, maybe once or twice a year, why should I allow myself a chance to miss out on game because I picked a marginal rifle, instead of the turbo-charged, stainless, hubble-telescoped-range-finding whitetail slayer. Oh, this box of ammo costs $59.99 it must drop deer much faster, I'll grab those too...

Anyway, I think it is just a trend. We always want newer, bigger and better, and we are happy to pay as long as it is a value, which the companies are doing a decent job of it all. Just someone wake me up when Kimber brings out a full stocked, military-mauser style gun in .308, then i'll leave my 38' Nagant in the safe for once.

Back to reality and the laws of physics: 3000 fps in 338 caliber for 300 grain bullet at 65,000 psi requires a case capacity of 145.5 grains. PERIOD, no if and or buts...NO exceptions.

These idiots are somewhere between 78,000 and 82,000 psi.

Do not be encouraged to try this even though it is possible given the incredible strength of the RUM brass and the 700 action. However, when one of these lets go it will probably be fatal.