To be this bad I thought a cartridge would have to be:-

Inherently dangerous and/or unable to do the job it was designed to do.

Are there any? Every time I think I've got an example it turns out some human has used it to do something it wasn't designed to do.

Perhaps I should simplify it and ask are there any which just can't cut it and why?

There is no bad piece of property, just bad ownership......

I think it's the same with cartridges. There are no bad cartridges, just owners who load and use them for inappropriate tasks, or else don't shoot the rifles they're chambered for with precision.

Allen

redleg

The 338-50BMG.

The 6mm-378Wby mag!

Some 45ACP wildcat necked down to 38 cal which took multiple difficult steps, blew up a handgun, and produced ultimately inferior ballistics.

727-50BMG

577-600 rewa(why why why?)

500NAI long magnum (electronic ignition, 40 inch barrel)

Just a few I would not own.

Karl.

How about it? Have any of you fearless experimenters ever tried making a modern .22 out of the .357 case? Looks like a fine project.

[This message has been edited by Stonecreek (edited 05-25-2001).]

Stonecreek,
A friend of mine build a .17 Ackley Jet on a .357 case in a Martini Cadet action. Amazingly efficient cartridge and cute little thing, but very expensive to accomplish, with forming dies, reamer, etc.. . Haven't gotten the final range results yet, but I believe the last forming step was to fire form the shoulders in the chamber. While accomplishing this it was a sub-MOA rifle, so there is hope!- Sheister

Some I agreed with, others I was baffled by.
What I can remember:
a 45ACP necked down to .40, with an increased velocity over the .45.
I believe he said "Well that's all fine and good, but what's the point?" And "You tend to make yourself unpopular when you ask that question."

.280 and .338. I'm baffled by his disregard for these cartridges. Anybody know why he doesn't like them? I guess he thinks the .270 is too simialr to the .280, and maybe you should use a .375 if stepping up past .30 cal, but who knows?

My personal prejudices are most of the traditional lever gun loads, 44-40, 30-30 etc. With the exception of the 45-70. I know some of them are great, they are just not great for me. I only own one lever gun currently.

Shame on you!!!!

For the book the only bad cartridge I know of is the 7MM Rem. Mag.......!!but it has fooled the gunworld...

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

The whole idea looks this way to me: Take can and fill it with an explosive charge and a blasting cap with a fuse, then push a bullet up in front. Stick this "can thing" in a pipe (chamber with a barrel), crank the hand magneto, and... BANG! Now, if they would have developed a laser gun, then it would have been revolutionary.

As for bad cartridges, I think the very slow powders now available has taken care of most of the problems as in bad=badly owerbore. AKI

However, it was not the .280 Rem. he criticized. Rather, he criticized,

A. The .25-'06, 6.5 Rem. Mag., .257 Wby. and .264 Win. for duplicating the 6.5x68 (circa 1938); and

B. The 7mm Rem. Mag., 7x61 S&H, 7mm Wby. etc. for duplicating the .280 Jeffery and 7x65R; and

C. The 8mm Rem. Mag., .338 Win. Mag., .340 Wby. Mag. for duplicating the 8x68.

Interesting point as to the origins of different cartridges but then again, we have to live in the world of ammo availability, so the fact a person can buy 7mm Rem. Mag. ammo at Wal-Mart but probably would have to form cases for some of the others becomes more than a tad relevant.

-- Mats

------------------
'Trapper'

Wes

WOW! Post 20, I'm a super member!! Do I get a cape or something! I feel flush with energy!

[This message has been edited by Wes (edited 06-19-2001).]

I have never owned a 7 Mag and most likely I never will, but I don't see anything inherently wrong with it. For recoil shy shooters like myself, it gives magnum performance with mild to moderate recoil.

I do understand that there isn't anything that the good ol .270 Win can't do if compared to 7 mag, but the same argument can be made for .25-06 vs. .257 Weatherby, .338-06 vs. .338 mag, 9.3x64 vs. .375HH and .416 Rigby vs. .404 Jefferey. Does it mean that the less popular one is a bad cartridge from these pairs?
BB

I thought the original .416rem mag might have been a candidate as it was reputed to have got some people into troubl and the 280Ross in a military rifle which wouldn't extract in Flanders mud even if you stamped on the bolt (maybe it was in conjunction with the rifle)

Anyhow it seems as if we've been well served by our gunmakers as despite the fact there are loads we personaly don't like, very few if any don't do what they were designed to do.

Hmm, that's hard to comment on for someone like me. I'm pretty open minded.

Someone mentioned the 30 Carbine. I have to tell you this is one of my favorite varmint calibers for close range. It is a fairly accurate cartridge (case taper is much greater than a conventional straight walled case thus offering consistent headspace without a rim) and with 110 gr. SP bullets it does a great job on small prey. Low recoil, good power, mild report.

I was never a fan of the 7Mag until I found a deal too good to pass up. I was looking for a .270 but instead found a new M70 in 7Mag at Walmart for $240. Oh well. This turned out to be a learning experiment for me. I discovered much of the 7Mag's potential is likely untapped by most shooters who do not handload. It is accurate and very versatile.

One caliber though that I believe was a bad idea is the .264 Win Mag. This caliber is just too overbore. It's easy to see why it fell into disfavor after the introduction of the 7Mag. Now the .264 does work it's just that you burn a lot of powder just to equal the performance of a .270 or 6.5-'06 and at its best it isn't a whole lot faster and often less accurate by comparison.

Another I have little affection for is the .32 H&R Magnum. I have a brother-in-law who loves it for use in IHMSA competition but I can't see how you can have .32 and Magnum in the same phrase. While better than a .32 Special it really is a far cry from offering true magnum performance.

Speaking of magnums, the 9mm Winchester Magnum seems to me like a bad idea save for the fact that the brass can be reformed into so many other useful calibers.

Regards,
Rick

Well since I cant walk around with a M-14 I guess Im stuck with a handgun. I never carry my 9mm ; I own a .45 acp and much prefer that round. But the main reason I dont like my 9mm is because I am required, by my job, to stoke it with 147 grn subsonic JHP's.

Therein lies the root's of much of the bad press about the 9mm as a self defense cartridge. With the high velocity 115grn, and 125 grn, loads its a perfectly fine self defense round and it really shines in the small, compact, packages that otherwise would have to be filled by the likes of a 32 cal, or .380. Besides, ammo is cheap, easy to come by, and you can load a bushel basket of the things in a full size auto.

I have a love/hate thing with the 10mm. It was designed AFTER the new 45acp loadings had given the "old standby" a generational lift. We already had the 41 mag so why bother with half moon clips in a wheelgun ? The 10mm has nice numbers but I never really saw a need for it ; Then again what do you expect from the Govt. when it comes to spending our tax dollars ?

I dont consider the 40 S&W to be "awsome". If you dont put it in the boiler room its no more effecient then a good 9mm loading. But like the .357 Sig it has found a well deserved niche. There are a lot of woman who have decided they are not sheep to wait for the slaughter, we also hire a lot of itty bitty cop's, and both can realistically move up to a 40 S&W from a 9mm and thats probably a good thing.

Of course in the hands of experienced shooter the 40 S&W is a fine load also, perhap's retaining a bit more punch then the "9", and also retaining the mag capacity.

I have always hated and loathed the 25acp. Why "Hate" a cartridge you ask? Well if you "love" one then you should be able to "Hate" some also. Life would be boreing without emotion anyway.

I have always been a "closet Loather" of the 7mm RM. Since Ray led the charge I am now "coming out". I know its a perfectly lethal catridge on game it was intended for but I also think it was the biggest flim-flam on riflemen ever caused by a gun manufacturer.

I will add a legal clause here "I do know there are 7mm RM shooter's out there that can outshoot me, and outhunt me, with their 7mm RM's" ; But , Tell me how you can load it to outperform my 100yo 3006 cartridge ,WITH, practical big-game weight bullets.

Please keep the comments about "SD's" to a minumum because I only require my '06, or .308, to go thru one animal at a time.

Now when I see a 7X57,.280, or 7mm-08, on the shelf my eye's widen, mouth salivates, and I start digging into my pocket to see how much money I have on me.

But the 7mm RM ? And good Lord, Rem has made a fortune off it !

Well, I said it. Please dont take it personaly but one can only hold things of that nature in for so long a time, then it spills out.

good shooting..........10

10 point-
Why do you have to use the 9mm rounds that don't work as well? I would think that cops would want to use the best available. Is it an over penetration thing?

Now, after enough dead cop's, its no longer raved about and Im sure that within 50 years my Dept. will catch up to the rest of the country.BTW we lost another officer yesterday............good shooting..............10

Let's hear it. I have been shooting a 7mmRemMag since 1966. My mother bought it for my Dads birthday in '61. It is not a true magnum though - kinda the opposite the .25-06 - which is. Belt/no belt. Bore/Overbore

I rank the big 7 right up there with the 7x57, .270, .280, .308, .30-06(almost) and the .300 Win. (I'm sure I left out a bunch)
One of the best.It is no better, nor no worse than any of the others.

Every year the RMEF lists the elk rifle survey in Bugle. The Big Green 7 is always at the top or near the top every year.

------------------
Ignorance is curable but stupidity is terminal.

quote:

---

Originally posted by 10point:

Also when the load was adopted it was raved about all over Police cirlces.

Now, after enough dead cop's, its no longer raved about and Im sure that within 50 years my Dept. will catch up to the rest of the country.

---

Sorry, 10point, but I can't let this misinformation go. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the 147 grain JHP load in the 9mm. Sorry to burst your bubble, but there is no police handgun cartridge (.38, 9mm, 10mm, .45) that offers instant stops. The only instant stops are CNS hits, and you should know that, unless your department is not giving you the right info, or you are not listening.

The 147 grain load, when adopted, was superior to any other 9mm loadings available. It STILL is a good choice. Most of the higher velocity/lighter bullet loadings offer less penetration and are defeated by some of the obstacles usually present in shootings.

If you are hooked into the kinetic energy - temporary cavity mythology as a part handgun wounding effectiveness, there is nothing more I can say to you. That line of reasoning has been discredited so many times over by forensic scientific community as to be dead issue (pardon the pun).

To blame officer deaths on the 9mm 147 grain load is irresponsible and unprovable. This load is used by SCORES of agencies with success. Your viewpoint is in the minority.

We might agree that the 9mm bore has measurably less effect than a .40 or .45. But compared amongst themsleves, the various 9mm loadings have only one relevant basis of comparison, and that is penetration. The round that will go 18" against all targets and make the bigger PERMANENT cavity wins. The 147 grain load does that.

Kuduking and 10 point
I don't know a hell of alot about handguns and police work. I do know that if I was a cop, I'd want a .45ACP. 10 or more rounds of ammo, and a big chunk of lead!

There are lots of 9mm agencies out there, and many different loads are in use. Naturally there will be differing views of what situations face a particular agency, determining the type of load. But your own personal opinion, or what you may have read in the pop press, of the 147 grain load is not shared by the consensus of law enforcement, nor obviously by your own firearms training section. Nor is it by my agency.

I dont care how many inches of ballistic geletan a bullet can go thru, when you hold the gun against it. In real life the geletan aint all the same, the gun is different distances from it, and at different angles, and the geletan is not only shooting back at you but it might be wearing 5 layer's of clothing, some of it heavy.

Its a question of physics. You have to have penetration and you can get in one of two way's, or with both. You either have mass , or velocity, or both. The 147 grn subsonice really doesnt have much of either. Its no better then the 38 grn LHP Plus-P it was meant to replace.

Clothing not only stops penetration but it hinders expansion, so you BETTER have penetration to count on.

There are simply to many variables for anyone to count on "one shot stop's", most of them are outside of your control, and most of those are in the offenders head.

But one constant is you have to have penetration, and Im not talking about B-geletan at head-on angles. The 9mm 147 SS is just a poor choice for punching thru, its a poor one in general ,and a poor choice for the 9mm. I carry a .45, and would rather have a .308.

Im not going to comment on this anymore. This is a big game forumn and dont think Im being rude by not responding, go ahead and post one last time if you need the last word.

But the FBI hasnt thought much of the 9mm since Miami, when they abandoned it in droves. The same thing has happened with the 147 SS with much of Law Enforcement.

BTW the .270 suck's for Elk...just joking.....10