I have a polar bear hunt scheduled for March of
2004. I want to start testing some clothes for fit, warmth, etc. I looked up the average temp for when I will be going and it looks like lows down to -40F or so. Needless to say I want to be
prepared because we will be on the ice in unheated tents!
Northern Outfitters arctic gear looks pretty good to me, but of course I have never tested it in real life conditions.
Filson's "industrial strength" wool looks good but I am afraid that by the time I got enough on
I wouldn't be able to move.
Cabela's Trans Alaska Extreme suit must be good or the guy wouldn't be wearing it to run the
Iditarod.
I imagine I would be able to rent or borrow Caribou and fur stuff from the guides but I hate
the idea of spending 1 to 2 weeks in someone else's clothes.
Anyway, what do you guys with experience think?

Thanks
Wes
ps There's not much opportunity to test this stuff here in central Oklahoma!

DWS
I wear the Filson wool stuff for winter. I recomended the stuff to a few guys here before. I think John the Greek was one of them. I'm pretty sure he liked the Filson stuff up here on his Bison hunt.
I do agree with you though on layered wool getting a little heavy. I have started using down (spelling?) I find that the heavier wool makes me sweat alot more, so moister is more of a problem as well as wool tends to drag more snow in the tent with you than the synthetic cover downs do.

I have been eyeing up that trans Alaskan Extreme suit as well. Sure as hell looks warm. I don't think I will go with it though. I prefer a 2 piece. Bibs and parka. I like the Idea of being able to take the parka off and rolling up my sleeves to butcher, cut wood, or get a snowmachine unstuck. At night if I have to take a piss or something, I just slide my parka and boots on and make it quick. It can get pretty hot even in an unheated tent if you are fully dressed.
It is nice just to be able to through the parka off and sit down.

Let us know what you come up with. I have been looking for something new as well.

Daryl

Wonder where you are going? I've been between Kotzebue and Barrow in March and found that for mining start-up operations I was over dressed most of the time. A parka was nice. Light polypro underware, a layer of expedition weigth underware, carharts and a parka with mittens were the initial out fit.

If I was not mining I'd go with a layering system similar to that used in mountaineering a high altitude parka and a good set of mittens which will hold a pair of polypropolene gloves for when you want some dexterity. Sunglassess, polarized, are a must--it gets really, really brigth on the ice. Again, look at mountaineering sun glasses (REI)

Personally I'd stay away from wool, synthetic insulation and gortex would be the way to go. Take a look at Patagonia's clothing, maybe North Face. I'd also not bother with an insulated arctic suit as you are most likely just perspire it wet when moving.

A good sleeping bag and a ground pad are important as sleeping warm will depend on how much heat you do not loose through conduction to the ice.

Conduction is an important source of heat loss, especially as you hold equipment (gun, etc.) and your sleeping pad. If you're melting snow under your pad, you're losing heat.

More important is evaporative heat loss. You sweat to keep your skin soft, not just to stay cool. Cold, dry air sucks the moisture from your skin and you lose heat. This is the same effect as if you dip your hand in gasoline or alcohol.

Stephenson's www.warmlite.com has some lengthy (and odd) information on evaporative cooling and also sells vapor barrier clothing to stop evaporative heat loss. In fairness, any exertion inside a vapor barrier will cause as much sweating as it prevents so this should be an option only if you will be waiting for long periods.

Another good site with good information is www.wiggys.com.

Factually, nothing is as warm and light as down. Check out www.featheredfriends.com.

Also, as has been said, -40 is extreme. You are much more likely to be working in temperatures from about 10 to -10.

kk

[ 11-23-2002, 19:44: Message edited by: kk ]

DWS,
Yukoner is right. I took his advice and I am glad I did! I went with Filson for my Yukon trip and it was fabulous! One of their Double Mackinaw Cruisers or Packer Coats coupled with the Mackinaw wool bibs is an outstanding set-up. I wore deep pile patagonia fleece under the bibs and a pair of smartwool mountaineering socks coupled with polypropylene under-socks underneath my -30 Sorels. I then wore a cotton shirt and then a heavy patagonia fleece sweater under my Elmer Fudd style red/black plaid coat. For my hands I wore US military surplus ECWS mittens (the ones with the leather palms) and liners. There were, in reality, times I was TOO warm and had to open up a layer or two but I was never cold and we got down to probably -20 or less at night and the snowmobiling to and from the cabin area was pretty chilly even in the daytime. OH !Try to find a Patagonia Activist Fleece Balaclava for your face. These things are THE SHIT! Simply, I cannot recommend Filson gear highly enough when coupled with proper underwear (heavy fleece and polypropylene). I, frankly, doubt Gore-tex or the other high tech synthetic stuff is going to help you at all Anyway, I doub't you will be dealing with an environment that is warm enough to concern yourself with wet conditions or needing highly water-resistant gear (of course, this is the main advantage of Gore-tex). You really only need clothes that breath properly (granted, this is something that Gore-tex does well but you pay the price for high-tech fabric efficiency by putting up with the noisy swish swish swish as you walk along . . . NOT conducive to hunting) THAT SAID . . . If I was hunting Polar Bear I would probably spring for some of the high-tech wools like those sold by http://www.kingofthemountain.com That standmaster bib and jacket system in blowdown camo is pretty damn neat (sure, it's expensive but HELL, you are hunting polar bear what is a few hundred bucks to make sure you are comfortable on the hunt of a lifetime!!!!)

Best Regards and happy hunting,

JohnTheGreek

Wes,

My wife and I have used Wiggy's Fossil Ridge bib and parka in the temperature range you expect. They work great. If you call Jerry Wigetow he is very helpful.

jim dodd

Layer, when it is -40, to sweat is to die. poly pro underwear is a must, as it is thin, wicks well, and is warm. Wind is a big issue on the Arctic plain where Polar bears are found, so a wind blocker is very nice, don't worry about gore-tex, you aren't likely to get any rain, wear mittens that you can fit gloves inside. Make sure you stay hydrated, dehydration is a big problem up here, it is not like the southern deserts, you don't feel as thirsty here, but if you get dehydrated, you will suffer from the cold much more. If you would like, I will ask a friend of mine who is an Arctic Survival instructor if you can email him, he will no shit give you what it takes to make it in our environment.

I did a lot of winter camping in Alaska several years ago, and found that I was happiest with several thin layers of wool topped with a windproof outer layer. Most of the time, the problem is getting to warm. If you are moving around, have layers of wool that you can open to release warmth, close them back up when stationary, but don't let the heat build up. I found it best to just feel cool. Deep hard breathing at -40 will do things to you that are not nice, think at least a shallow breathing tube on the outer layer. And then have one hell of a good time!!!!!!

Layers, wool, down, polypropylene or a silk mixture for long underwear (the silk will help with the wind, as well). I lived in the arctic for 15 years, and these are what will keep you warm. FOOTWEAR is a big deal, especially on the ice. Sorel -100 boots are good for warmth, not that great for walking (your feet slip around inside and will be prone to blister if you walk too long/far, another good argument for a silk blend inner sock). HEADGEAR is another thing you will need. You lose a great deal of heat from your head. As JTG says, a good Elmer Fudd hat works wonders (a bill for the sun, ear flaps you can tie under your chin). The face mask is also a great idea, frost bite on the skin on your face sets in quick on a snowmobile (ask me how I know). Wool is great here too. Make sure you take sunglasses as previously mentioned, you wouldn't believe how bright it gets on the ice when the sun comes out. Layered mittins for most wear, trigger finger slit mittens for hunting. Wear a wool glove inside the trigger slit mittens, you will lose skin on the trigger otherwise. These are worse weather type scenarios. Sometimes it just isn't that cold up there. So remember to layer. The sleeping pad suggestions are good, depending on what accomodations will be available to you. Tent sleeping is cold, in an igloo it's quite warm actually. If they double layer the tent, have a stove, and you keep off the floor (pad on top of a sleeping platform) you will usually be comfortable in a tent, too. COMPLETELY degrease/oil your firearm. Use only dry lubes, or none at all. The moisture levels in the arctic at this time of year are lower then most deserts, so unless you will be boating on the ocean to the iceflows, I wouldn't worry too much. If you are going to be boating (there's only a few places where this is likely at this time of year) car wax is your friend. All I can think of at the moment. - dan

One little trick I don't see mentioned too often for cold weather clothing is a silk bandanna worn cowboy style around your neck . You cannot believe how much it can warm you in raw conditions . I feel dam near nekked without one in sub-zero weather .

Conversely , the bandana can get you heated up some if you get to doing something strenuous , but then you take it off and stick it in a pocket . Once you start to cool off , put the neckerchief back on . It works for me dam near like a thermostat .

Dan brings up a good point on the footwear. I didn't mention it before as I'm sure there are better options today, but I used a canvas topped, rawhide soled boot, I believe called mukluk, I could very well be wrong on that name. You could use a felt liner, I used multiple layers of wool socks. Nice thing about it was you could loosen them to allow heat loss, then close them up for heat retention. Believe me when I say you do not want hot sweaty feet, think dry, and carry spare socks. It did require relearning how to walk slightly, traction is not real high. Today there are better alternatives, maybe, but the principle hasn't changed much. As a side note, I found it handy to have a pack to carry the unwanted layers of clothes in till needed. Most of the time I was on my own, this may be academic on a guided hunt. Another side note, make sure your gun of choice handles well with the anticipated clothing. I lost the recoil pad in favor of a thin solid pad due to handling issues. Above all else, enjoy it!

Northern Outfitters is the only way to go.

The concepts of layering, wool and synthetics are fine until you get into deep cold. Then they are simply outmoded; wool cannot keep you warm into those temperatures unless you are strenuously moving, layering will leave you looking like the Michelin Man and you will be unable to move and you will still be cold.

For Christmass many years ago I purchased a custom made bibs for my wife since she is 4'11" and Northern Outfitters didn't have anything that small. Also I bought her the boots and gloves. I have the gloves.

She will put on her thin polypropylene underwear and a pair of socks. This is all she wears out on the ice under her Northern Outfitters bibs and boots. Her parka is a custom made one from Eddie Bauer. I didn't have the money for the full N.O. parka.

It sounds too good to be true but I will not tell you falsely on something as serious as this. Get the N.O. and you'll be fine.

The true test of clothing is when you are sitting still and doing nothing. THEN you will seperate the B.S. from the real deal.

[ 11-25-2002, 02:05: Message edited by: Roger Rothschild ]

www.northernoutfitters.com
The only way to go if you wish to stay warm and have proper equipment.

I had a friend go on a Polar Bear Hunt a few years ago. When he arrived in Nunivik witha another hunter it was 35 below. They were met at the airport by their guide and he asked what kind of clothing they had. Allen said, "Northern Outfitters" The guide said "great". The other guy said "Cabellas". The guide said, "you die".

At 35 below in a sled with the wind chill factor at who knows what Allen said he was never cold. The other guy called his hunt off because his -80 degree boots gave him frostbite.

Be careful and don't sweat the extra money for good gear.

I have used a wild rag bandanna (silk) for years

They work great,get them at western stores.
Works as a sling too.
or around you face.you'll find a lot of uses for them.made in lots of colors.
wash the sizeing out before you use them.
Ski shops have silk longjohns the are real warm,and let you slide in the heavy cloths whice helps.

six bits

This is why I love this site. Post a question, leave town for a couple of days, come back to a bunch of great advice. I really appreciate the insights and recommendations!
After reading the above, I did some google searches and came across some interesting sites.
www.northwinds-arctic.com does expeditions to the north and south poles. By going to one of the listed trips (I forget which one) you can access their recommended clothing list. It is good because the guy gives the reasons why he recommends each item. Based on his biography I think he probably knows what he is talking about.
What is really interesting is the stuff he WON'T
let you wear and why. Anyway, a lot of his advice
applies to much warmer temps as well.
www.north-pole-expeditions.com also has a detailed
gear list plus it is fun reading. Their site must
be temporarily down, but you can still access the gear list under googles' "cached" feature. Here's a couple of quotes from their text regarding the
Northern Outfitters' gear:

"EXP parka with Arctic Liner...will be guaranteed to keep you warm even if you threw yourself in an arctic pressure ridge for a week.....you do not need to add any layering below...just put your wicking underwear on and this jacket and arctic liner and your torso will be warm forever."

"...the EXP boot by Northern Outfitters is the absolute warmest boot on the planet, though it is
kinda bulky and "clunky""

Anyway, I'm having a lot of fun looking for this stuff. As my daughters tell people "Dad's a weirdo. He is the only person on the planet with a
coat fetish." I have tried to explain to them what
it is like to be 8 yrs old, on a horse all day in
10 degree weather, 20-30 mph winds and have on Hanes cotton longjohns, blue jeans, cotton socks,
"blanket lined" jean jackets, uninsulated cowboy
boots and be absolutely frozen to death. To which
they reply "Dad, that's back in the dark ages. Plus, we don't live on a farm like you did. Plus,
we don't care that you froze 30-40 yrs. ago." Of
course, they say this as they put on Thermax, fleece, down, etc. to face measly 25F weather.

Thanks again, guys, for all of your advice. I really appreciate it.

Wes

I would look into the cold weather gear offered by Mountain Hardware and the North Face that they use to climb Mt. Everest. The down suits are about $900, but worth it. I like to use both a lightweight and an expedition weight set of Patagonia long underwear, plus a wool shirt, then a high end down coat with hood and down bib overalls (all goretex too) instead of the down 1 piece suit, but that is personal prefrence.

the northwinds clothing (for the south Baffin traverse) list is pretty much what I used when I worked in the arctic

I liked layers of synthetic fleece and windproof material with a big Parka with a wolf ruff hood to finish off the outfit. I couldn't afford gore-tex so I seldomn bothered with it and never really missed it.

I wore a pair of light gloves ( wool or fleece) inside a pair of "snot mittens" (so named because there is a piece of fleece on the back of the mitten to wipe your nose)

I used the 100 below sorels and always carried a spare felt liners to replace the damp ones daily.

I usually wore a bomber hat and fleece mask

Like Dan B sugested don't forget sunglasses the sunlight can be very bright in the spring up there when it reflects off the snow, you can get temporarily snowblind

[ 11-26-2002, 00:56: Message edited by: rockhead ]

DWS Good advice here. The coldest I have hunted is in the -25 degree range. I wore Polypropoline underware, wool shirt and pants and used synchilla fleece, goosedown, and goretex as a wind/snow barrier. Regular fingered gloves did not keep my hands warm. Try this, wear a thin polypropoline liner under fingerless wool gloves. I like the kind with the rubber bumps on them. This way exposed skin never touches anything. Then I wore down mittens over the above to keep my hands from freezing. Funny thing I was warmer there than when hunting in Texas during 35 degree weather, difference in moisture in the air I guess.
PS I do not want to sound like your mother....but take a wool sweater, a thick one, It will be one of the most valuable items you can have. Durring times of inactivity under down and a goretex or other wind shell you will be warm. When you become active shed the down and the gortex so you do not sweat, the sweater will breath and still help keep you warm. Also you can sleep in it at night, or wrap up your feet in it in the bottom of your sleeping bag to keep them warm.

us military mil spec.fleece(expedititon weight) for extremely cold weather from cablelas and at least 2000grams of thinsulate boots from them also...i was at ft.sill in 96' and it was "cold",buy the stuff the special op's guys get for artic training,it'll burn you up(keep you warm)

The only thing I will add is about the sunglasses. Make sure they don't have metal frames.Don't wear rings, both finger or ear. Watches with metal bands. They will give you a nice case of frostbite.I think you needed to add some info for us to give you what you need.Walking requires one thing and riding in a sled requires something else.At those temps anything you put on the ice will freeze to it at night ie gun,boots,whatever. Good Luck.

[ 11-29-2002, 17:49: Message edited by: Rob1SG ]

One little tidbit of cold weather knowledge..
If you spit and it freezes before it hits the ground it's below -50.

I have been in and worked in -25 and I don't want to be there again anytime soon without enough proper clothing!

DWS,
Also plan on your equiptment for photos as I definitly want to see those!

Good Luck

I spend some time outdoors during the winter and would like to emphasize AKBman's post earlier pertaining to HYDRATION - a human is much more prone to frostbite when not well hydrated, especially here as the winter air is very dry - many studies on climbers have revealed this fact - so, to sum it up, your comfort and survival depends A LOT on what you put IN YOUR BODY, not just what you wear on your body - all the clothing technology is great, but proper maintenance of the body is of primary importance - good luck - KMule

I work outside in temps down to -40, and have seen -50 once here. The best advice I can give in addition to the above is to take an extra pair of dry socks and mittens. If your feet sweat or you get your hands wet, you are going to be in big trouble. I'll change socks 2-3 times a day in cold weather.

DWS,

I have worked up north for three winters when I was younger and dumber on the ice. The weather was always below zero and mainly around -30 to -35 and OFTEN -40 to -45 and sometimes -50 to -55. I would only stress OFTEN -40 to -45. It is very hard to stay warm MOVING quickly at this temp and at -50 it is almost impossible to get and stay warm, MOVING fast, god help you if you have to sit still.

I'll give you a list of must haves, and I mean MUST.

Sunglasses-
You WILL be BLIND without them, and I don't mean hard to see I MEAN BLIND, there is NOTHING dark there to absorb the light but white, white and more white. Take a couple pair at least in case something happens. Quality ones, darker the better, wrap around type plastic only.

Boots-
Northern Outfitters, only way to go, don't think twice.

Mittens-
Two pair, Northern Outfitters again.

Hat-
Fur hat is the VERY warmest and will protect your face too.

Facemask-
Neopreme facemask with polarfleece around the head, looks just like a facemask with the velcro in back. If you go without this you'll be sorry, the wind can freeze you face almost instantly if not kept protected. The beauty of the Neopreme mask is, when it gets wet from your breath, (it will) you can snug it up to touch your face and the heat from your skin will keep the moisture warm and won't let it freeze. A regular facemask will be a block of ice in 30 minutes and freeze your face, but you can let it freeze over a Neopreme mask and it still adds warmth but will not touch your face directly. Don't forget the Neopreme!

Neck protection-
I have a North Face slip over neck warmer which basically stops wind. The membrane in it is Gore Windstopper, not goretex. Gore Windstopper is the $hit let me tell you. It doesn't let ANY wind through AT ALL. This will matter in your choice of clothing more than you know. It is the only thing in it's class. Buy whatever you can with THIS stuff sewn in it.

Coat and Bibbs-
The Northern Outfitters coat has a foam liner in 1" or 2" thick choices or both together for 3". This is regular open cell foam, and is a little stiff, but VERY warm. My younger brother uses one for trapping with a 1" liner, Michelin Man is the look exactly. The 2" liner is what I'd have and maybe the 1" along with if you needed it too, or only the 1" at times. Verstility. DON'T SWEAT! Peel your stuff off fast to keep from it if you have to.

Several packets of handwarmers, just in case.
Headlamp with remote 4D-size battery pack and plenty of batteries, a couple ten packs maybe.
Wool glove liners, a couple two or three.

Everything else is pretty basic underwear of your choice for layering etc. and keeping moisture off your skin. I use a heavyweight wool polypropolene blend.

When the frost builds up on your eyelashes 1/2" thick and you have to remove your glove to squeeze and melt it off between your fingers, wipe off the water on your shirt until dry or your gloves will get wet quickly, you'll be doing this every half hour to hour at least.

Take some cash and a few items to trade too, I hear they have lots of things to offer clients in the way of artifacts and collections etc, etc that are often VERY unique, saught after and expensive to buy back here if you can even find the them at all back here.

A trip of a lifetime, good luck and enjoy it much.

Be warm.

[ 11-30-2002, 18:25: Message edited by: Brent Moffitt ]