Browningguy, well I think you're an asshole too. I will tell you though, that what I'm mostly concerned with is "elk farms." I don't really give a shit what happens in Texas. Hunting a whitetail deer inside 6000 fenced-in acres is not going to be much different than hunting with no fence. But elk is a different story, and it's getting to be a big problem in states like Colorado. Luckily, Montana voters just passed an initiative a couple years ago banning canned hunts. Wyoming never allowed them, and either has Washington. I still don't understand what the purpose of the fence is if it isn't to keep the deer in. Why can't Texans use barb wire like people do in other states?

Here is a view from one who was raised in N Idaho, hunted Washington state, Alaska, Southern Idaho, Wyoming, Colorado, Missouri, Arkansas, and Oklahoma, prior to moving to Texas.

There is no experience that is the same as spending a couple of weeks or a month in true wilderness, and it can be hunting, fishing, or hiking, the experience will be close to the same.

The experience of hunting in non-wilderness areas has it's own set of rewards and expectations, again, some of them, or most of them, not "wilderness" related, but socially related, people related, and yes hunting related.

Each type of experience has it's own reason for being and being enjoyed, they are just different. Living in Texas, you may appreciate going hunting over the weekend without taking two weeks of travel to do it.

It is a mistake to name one as "correct" and the other one as "wrong", something I have done myself, honestly. They are not the "same", and that is as far as it goes. Each one can and should be enjoyed for it's own merits and reasons.

High fence type operations are here to stay, while some of us still are able to find some wilderness. Not everyone goes to Africa, either, and some might say you haven't hunted till you stop a Cape Buff at 5 feet while he is trying to examine your entrails.

Maybe those of us close to wilderness should be offering to share this with our "brother" hunters, so they can have it as their own in addition to other hunting experiences. I really don't know what good it does to ridicule another hunter over what may be available in his area, even though I have been guilty of this in the past.

Whatever form your hunting may take, enjoy it, and help introduce a "newbie" to your hunting. I think that is why a lot of "us" are on this forum in the first place.

I've hunted only one High Fence operation. Out in West Texas near Van Horn is a 65 section perimeter fenced ranch that a customer of mine used to own. 15 of us took 12 nice desert Muleys in 2 days. Worked our collective butts off doing it too since the ranch's fence completely surrounded a small super steep group of "short mountains" with lots of box canyons and 500-1000' drops. The problems with any managed high fence ranch is one of size and "fair chase" versus free range and totally unmanaged neighbors not on board with any kind of trophy program or herd balancing for the most part. The Elk farms elsewhere are no different than the Texas WhiteTail issues....and a hot topic indeed. Here the State and it Citizens own the Legally Designated Game Animals...and there is usually a lot of animosity when a high fence is erected from the neighboring ranch's. But selling "access rights" to private ground has been a way of life since the 50's and ranchers now make more money selling hunting rights than they do selling beef. As you said Exotics are another story, and a real bonus since 99% of all the guys I know will never go to Africa. Personally I'd like to see a size minimum enacted of a 1000 acres or maybe larger before the State would allow a high fence, but since less than 3% of all the land in Texas is public the State doesn't have much leverage on what happens on private ground except to be able to enforce the State Game Laws with regard to season and bag limits. Ask me again after I win the lottery!! 'Cause the first thing I'd do is to buy as big a spread as I could afford and start growing bigger critters of all kinds... including Elk.
Ron

Basically it is a loaded question that will bring the best and worst out in man ... No matter which way we doctor up the questions you will never get an answer that is right or wrong, that has been my experience before whenever the same questions was posed ...

Guess the easy way to answer is both have their positives and negatives

Peter

I have culled/shot/hunted deer on deer parks here in the UK and it is part of the stalking scene over here. Most of these parks are only a 200 acres in size, if that. I have never taken a trophey animal in a deer park and I would never pay to either.



Some of these animals have been shot out of the window of a vehicle or off the back of a pick up some have been shot from highseats and some have been "stalked"..Would I do it again? yes...I am not sure that "fun" is the right word for it, but I enjoy it as a form of deer management and being involved in the deer world, if that makes sense.



I do know that some of these Parks are now selling medal heads, and people, mostly visiting Europeans and Americans, are paying to shoot them...that not really my cup of tea...



Where I really like fenced operations is for introducing new stalkers to hunting and for training. It enables an expirienced stalker take out a novice and show them game under controlled conditions and the novice can take a shot and be shown the various other things. The whole affair can be conducted as if it were a real hunt but the novice is reasonable certain to be able to get a beast under his belt...As long as the novice understands tand appriciates that things will be different on a free range hunt, I like the control and opertunity culling in a deer park offers in these circumstances.



Regards,



Pete

I think that people misunderstand the purpose of a high fence. It is not to keep deer boxed in, it is to keep your neighbors from shooting all the small deer and immature bucks before they grow up.

HIGH FENCE HUNTING..... RIFLE HUNTING,ATV'S, GAME CALLS, LURES, SCENT SUITS, SCENT SPRAYS, FEEDERS ETC ALL GIVE US AN ADVANTAGE OVER OUR GAME. I SEE ONLY HUNTING WITH A BOW AND ARROWS OR SPEARS AS "FAIR CHASE". I MUST STATE THAT I RIFLE HUNT AND USE SOME OF THE OTHERS SO I DO NOT THINK FOR A SECOND THAT IT'S FAIR CHASE, SO ONLY THOSE WHO USE SPEARS AND BOW AND ARROW SIGN BELOW:

LET'S NOT JUDGE OTHERS SO'S NOT TO BE JUDGED.

Yea those of us from Texas get defensive when people like you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about. I've hunted high and low fence properties. There's not a dimes worth of difference between the two when they are of similar size. I doubt if most of the deer on a high fence place even know they are fenced in. So what's the big deal. My how sporting it is to shoot a mule deer or elk grazing on an alfalfa field with a low fence. You really are the "true" sportsman.

Squirrel,

I am indifferent to those who choose high fence hunting, but I would not hunt one myself.

My significant other started hunting the year before last. She bought a hunting dvd (buck masters) the other day. I could not finish watching it. Every deer was shot from a feeder, as near as I could tell (beautiful, monstrous bucks). That is against the law where I am from, and certainly far beyond ethical practices. The dvd came with an entry to win a hunt, and she entered. The outfit (I can't remember their name, but it was featured in the vid) sent a letter trying to sell a hunt, more or less. They bragged on about the 5000 acre fenced operation with a biologist and the best breeding available. Further, they carried on about hunting off of comfortable, permanent stands ALL over feeders and food plots. She threw the letter out, disgusted. After two seasons, she knows that there is more to a hunt than taking a trophy animal. If we win the hunt, it will be for sale or trade on AR, I promise (to each his/her own). I told her that she could insist on stalking, or otherwise taking the hunt into her own hands, but she said she'd rather take her chances with a lesser buck taken in MT.

I think that what the animosity comes down to is the idea of a trophy being bought. From where I stand, watching these videos and TV programs, it looks as though you can throw down a few grand in order to be walked to a comfy stand over a feeder. Once there, you can throw your sand bag over the side of the feeder and shoot a trophy from a dead rest. And please, don't tell me about having to wait two days for this shot. I have a video showing 12 yr old children (or younger?) shooting 150 class whitetails just this way. The operations that produce these animals seem to be just like cattle operations, with vets, geneticists, etc involved. Again, I don't mind this, but it is a hell of a lot different from what I do when I go hunting. And it is a little bit frustrating to watch little children shoot trophy bucks b/c their parents threw down several thousand dollars for the experience (I shot my first 160 class muley when I was 15, on public land near Ashland, MT, and love to see children score big). What I am saying is that a bought buck is not a trophy in my book, no matter how big it may be. And there perhaps should be a distinction between the two types of "hunting." I guarantee that any 130 class buck taken in MT would hang higher and prouder than any monster, bread, genetically engineered, corn fed, food-plot-shot, drop-tine-sporting pig from a high fenced operation.

And about lost cattle, I have worked a ranch in the spring and fall moving cattle for years. I can vouch for the fact that a big, ornery bull will get down in a brushy draw and make his discovery and removal beyond difficult. The difference is that after you have pushed the brush, he will not jump out of it in front or behind you.

Furthermore, there seems to be some sort of elk hunting available that I am unaware of. Please tell me where I can easily spot elk from miles away only to turn up and collect them over feed bins. The only elk I seem to be able to find are miles away (mostly vertical) and require a great amount of effort to reach, at which point they usually run miles further. Worse, these damn creatures then die in the worst places, never near any sort of roadways, or even something vaguely similar. If someone here could tell me about these easy elk, I can certainly find information about where you can sit comfortably in a stand and shoot trophy whitetails off a feeder. I'll even throw in a half-used dvd for free. Let's make a deal. I would hate to think of the miles I hiked through snow and in below zero temps this year for nothing, leaving my crappy camper before dawn and returning after dark. Please? Anyone? I didn't think so.

Again, I don't care a bit about high fence hunting. If I lived in TX, I might partake myself. However, it is discouraging to see natural trophys outdone by something that was bought, raised, nurtured, and lured. It is like saying, "My butterball turkey weighs more than your hunted turkey, and I'm calling Guiness to report my "trophy"." I love ol' butterball, but I don't take the same pride in bringing her home.

[quote
Case in point; I have a ranch that is high fenced. After the fencing, I left the gates open for 4 months so any animal that wanted to leave, could leave. Any animal that wanted to stay could stay. You know what I found? After I closed the gates I noticed a huge amount of tracks along the fence on the outside of the fence. The deer on the outside wanted to come in! I only saw one deer on the inside of the fence by the fence.

We had a helicpopter fly the ranch and gather all the cattle. We missed one. I see his tracks and poop. In 6 months I have never seen this cow.

If you think it is not fair chase, I will give you a gun and a few days to find him. (This is a cow, mind you)

Good luck.

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Another case in point -- one of the WMAs I hunt in VA has one area where I consistently find beds, fresh droppings, etc. It's on an inside corner within a couple hundred feet of a low-fenced cow pasture. One bit of the pasture has some shade trees but the landowner keeps the underbrush cleared out.

On the WMA side of the fence it's a typical second/third-growth jungle. One of the main foot trails runs right up through this area. You would think deer would go somewhere other than an area heavily traveled by hunters, especially with a "safe zone" right next door. But I consistently jump them there last week of the season and they NEVER run downhill into the pasture.

John

I see a lot of guys complaining about fences. Well it does not take a fence to have a canned hunt. Its location. I have hunted private property in CO and Utah for elk that are not fenced but you will always get your bull on that property. The elk just want to be there. How many guys have left the national forest entered a private ranch and seen several head of elk just grazing around. For that matter I have hunuted farms in MD and VA that I can shoot a nice buck on on almost every trip out there. Not PY but resepectable animals. That goes for almost any species. Find the right place that limits hunting and you have the right stuff for success.

I suppose all you assholes in other states would prefer the millions of Texas acres to be in watermelons or some other habitat-destroying food crop? There wouldn't be many deer in Texas without ranching and there wouldn't be many operating cattle ranches without hunting revenue (other than the giant conglomerates that strip the pasture down to one grass specie that feeds cattle but drives wild game away). This shit doesn't just happen because someone woke up with an idea one day; it's evolved as a matter of survival. Lastly, chronic wasting disease is not going away and it will become a HUGE problem in some of our lifetimes. Having some isoltaed herds protected may bail you free-range assholes out one day so play nice!

In Southern Africa, to be more specific, Namibia and S.A.,
mostly "high fence hunting" is done.
Namibia is still fortunate enough, to have vast 'open' areas, where concessions are made available by the government, for hunting.Same with, Zim, Botswana, Tanz, Mosamb, etc.
This priceless treasure, unfortunately has no guarenteed future.Africa is "hungry" and hungry for anything you can think of.
If you live in Africa, like me, and you want to be part of wildlife conservation and conservation for hunting, you got to own land.
Now, if you want to reintroduce wildlife on your land, you've got to fence them in and "high" fence them, otherwise you are going to feed the masses.
I do trophy hunting, among other, in 12500 ac high fenced area and nobody in his right mind is gonna try to push an animal against the fence and shoot it, cause it's gonna run over you, for starters.
Hunting is not conducted in such ways where I come from and I think that is what's playing mind games, with anybody who does not like "high fence hunting".
On 12500 ac, you are going to work as hard as anywhere else, where it is 'open', to stalk up to that special trophy that you want.
On the 'killing' matter, do not try to fool yourselfe!
If you kill something, you either hated every moment of it,because you were hungry, wanted to test a weapon's killing ability,wanted a trophy on the wall at all costs, OR you enjoyed it, because it is an age old instinct thing to hunt and kill and like me, you will work your ass off to afford it.

Waidmannsheil!!

Eric I am not from an anti board.I have been hunting for over 30 years and it is my favorite past-time.

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Game farm "hunting" is probably the most important issue concerning hunting and I don't see why a guy can't ask a simple question on here to find out whether people here agree with it or not.

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pretty much sums it up.I was simply wanting peoples views.I did not want to start a bunch of bashing.I'm not here to tell people they are wrong or right,everybody has a right to there opinion.I for one also say it's up to the owner and the hunter on what they do.I do see good reasons for it in some places and cicumstances.I wouldn't do it,but that's not to say if the circumstances were different I wouldn't give it a try.I am simply wanting people's opinions and am happy with what I've gotten.Thank you all for your answers.They're greatly appreciated.

I must take exception to the negative remarks made by one or two of the posters concerning Dr. Valerius Geist. I know him and have both read his books and attended his lectures; he is an outstanding figure in the world of wildlife biology and a gentleman of the utmost integrity, courage and vision. It's too bad that we do not have more biologists like him as he has been a "standup guy" for wildlife conservation and hunting rights in this, his adopted country, for more than 40 yrs.

In the early 1960s, Dr. Geist would routinely spend months alone in the uninhabited wilderness of north-western B.C., living in a tiny log cabin with his 7x57 rifle as his only protection.As an immigrant, he did not have the experience of growing up in the bush and learning from old-timers that we native Canadians had, yet, his committment to science and hands-on research was such that he would endure this, year after year.

I might add that the area that he worked in was about the size of the state of Texas and had fewer than 1000 regular inhabitants during the winters, which commonly reach temperatures of -45-50 degrees and have snowcovers of 4-5 ft with drifts of 10-12 ft. I know, I spent months alone in this country, during the summers about 10 yrs after he was there and I wonder just how long those who mock Val would last under these conditions?

I don't give a rat's ass about who fences their private land and I don't care about exotics in Texas or anywhere else, BUT, I will never consider ANY fenced hunt to be real hunting, regardless of the size of the rack on the carefully nurtured "trophy". I would rather shoot a spindly raghorn bull or forkhorn buck on public land without motorised assistance than the biggest freakin' bull ever bred in any fenced operation.

To me, it's about challenge and earning your horns and meat the traditional way; those who want to fence their land or hunt fenced land can do so,but, it ain't gonna happen here in B.C. or there might be war.