Just curious if the other Oregon hunters on the board here have noticed a major decline in Blacktail since season has opened?

In Jackson County Oregon, up near Butte Falls and Prospect not only did I see only two very small deer ( they must have been fawns just last week), I did not even hardly see any Deer fecees anywhere in the woods at all. This is after hiking over 10 miles worth of trails, in an area normally over run with deer.

Contrary to what the animal rights activists and environmentalist act like, I believe the Cougar population being unchecked is not only cutting down the numbers in the deer herds, it is virtually decimating them! Since 1995, I personally estimate the deer herds around my home town as down by at least 80 % at a minimum.

Are the other hunters seeing this else where?? ( In Oregon)

Seafire,

I believe you are partially right in your assumption regarding the effects of the cougar population on the blacktail numbers. The other factor to consider is what has happened in the timber industry since 1990.

Since 1990, timber harvest on federal lands has declined rapidly to the point where very little federal timber is being harvested at all, and what is being harvested is in thinning operations. The result is a huge decline in available forage, since blacktail prefer the new growth found in recently opened clearcuts.

Private industrial timber operations still harvest substantial amounts of volume, however they are much more aggressive in the control of competing vegetation. The result is that there is not as much new forage in private clearcuts as is found in federal clearcuts.

The combination of the two (changing harvest practices and an exploding cougar population) has had some very detrimental effects on blacktail populations in Western Oregon. What to do about it? Two solutions come to my mind. First, go back to traditional methods of cougar hunting. Second, allow more clearcutting on federal lands. Of course, this would have a double benefit of providing badly needed timber jobs to rural communities and providing better deer and elk habitat.

Just my opinion...

JR:

Not being part of the Portland/Salem Liberal Democrat Yuppie Crowd, I second everything you say. Too bad none of these dumb ass self righteous " liberals" and " environmentalists" ( isn't that a contradictory concept) have a clue.

As long as it does not effect their little world, and they can sit around at their cocktail parties and act like they have personally done something to SAVE the world ( which doesn't need their saving, I might add) and feel good about themselves, the problem is going to exist.

As long as they are not out of a job, as long as they do not have to see what cougars have killed, as long as it is all out of sight out of mind..........

I am just glad the 'Liberals' aren't PROTECTING me. Starving, being eaten, and being dead are not my idea of being "Protected".

Seafire;
At least you can still hunt cougars, if you ever get a total ban on hunting them like we have in the Republic of Kalifornia you will be lucky to even see a deer let alone a buck you can harvest.
The Cat's here have just about ate themselves out of house and home and are doing some major migrating North and East.
It's a SAD SAD situation we're in.

Marsh;

Once they wipe out the deer, then what are they going to start eating??/

Instead of hunting them, too bad we just can't round them up and let them loose in Downtown San Francisco, or Portland, where all those SUV driving Yuppies and 'Animal Rights' Activists, just think Cougars are a cute Disney Character.

" Here kitty kitty kitty......"

I think that's the whole agenda. Stop cat hunting (or set it up so no one can be successful) so the cat numbers go up, stop logging so the deer have nothing to eat, let the cats kill whatever deer are left, and voila! no deer hunters. It's obviously working. Oregon needs a recall too.

I can't account for the lack of deere sign in those areas, Seafire, but I don't think it is all that unusual not to see deer up in that country as long as it is still hot and dry. Wait for a good blow, then work the brush patches near the gaps and ridgetops leading to winter range down toward Elk Creek and Lost Creek Lake, such as up around Needle Rocks. You'll still have to step on them, but they are in there. They're always just smarter and in better shape than I am. I agree the reduced logging activity is partly to blame, along with the cougars. But there has been a lot of disease on the West side of the Cascades the past few years, and last I checked, so-called animal lovers were still building dream houses in critical winter range.

Bill, et al:

Talked to the local Wildlife Biologist from Fish & Game today. Admitting lack of anything real scientific, they are estimating the herds down 35%.

Disease over the last 2 yrs are to blame for the real bad decline. He also indicated that they estimate the cougar population at about a 1,000 animals in Jackson, Josephine and Curry Counties.
Considering that scientifically they figure a cougar will kill an average of one to two deer a week to live, mathmatically you don't have to be a rocket scientists to figure that being 100,000 deer a year at least to keep the Environmentalists happy and Snagglepuss fed.

Lack of logging is also being blamed for habitat loss. ( Our buddies the environmentalists again).
( for these tree huggers, why can't we just slip a baseball bat up their ass, and then they can have all the wood they want?)

While deer are becoming traffic nightmares and are experiencing over population in urban America, we live in a heavily forested state and our deer population is dropping like a rock.
Ironic isn;t it??

Thanks for the inputs of others.

Just got back from the Yolla Bolly Wilderness in Kalifornia and didnt really like what I saw. Saw one cat during the day slipping through the bushes and every morning found cat tracks over our trail heading back into camp. Saw about 20 does but only 4 fawns. If the fawn mortalitly is as bad as it looks the place will be barren in only a few years.

This goes along with what I have seen over the last ten years or so. I have heard an overall statewide decline of about 40%. I believe it is higher than that in the areas I used to hunt.

Lack of clearcuts, cougars and disease are reported to be the biggest factors.

Mike

I've personally seen 2 cougars in the last year in broad day light walking down the middle of large gravel roads. One of my buddies that bow hunts had a cat about 30 yard directly behind him about 12 noon at 90 degrees on opening day. There have got to be alot more cats than F&G are admiting to. 10 years ago you could see multiple bucks and upwards of 25-30 in a day of hunting. Now you may only see that many in the entire season.

After another weekend of scouting out areas for Elk ( as I have given up on deer this season), I am still amazed that I am seeing no deer fecees in the woods at all. However there are still a lot of trails, which mean the deer have not been gone all that long.

I have been high and on river bottoms.

One thing I have noticed is that all of the deer I have seen, instantly take off running. I use to hunt in Northern Minnesota. In areas that they had released wolves back into the wild, the deer would run at the crack of a stick. In areas that they were not pressured by preditors, a deer would normally either freeze or lay low when someone was around. If you were on a drive, they would just get up and circle around you and lay right back down.

The Blacktail use to just freeze or lay low also. Now I am noticing that they are just running at the drop of a hat.

I spoke to a lady in her 70s that was working as a security person at a logging site in Coos County. She indicated that her dad was a logger and her husband had been a logger. She said she had spent more time in the woods, than in town most of her life. Ever since her husband died, she works as a security person at logging sites for the same company for the last 22 yrs.

She indicated that she had seen only a couple of cougars in the wild, in her entire life. In the last 2 months she has seen no less than 6 in broad day light. She also indicated that these sites are normally crawling with deer at night. She has seen very few of them this year.

I am beginning to wonder if Fish and Wildlife even has a clue. Or they are catering to the Portland anti hunting Democrats like Jennie Burdick.

Wiping out the deer population is environmentally sound, isn't it???

Seafire, my brother in law lives in Medford and my wifes family used to live in Grants Pass. Brother in law is an serious outdoorsman and he told me that he has seen more Evidence of Big Pussy Cats then he has ever seen before. He is an ex Forest Service employee and he has been in the woods out there a lot.

I have hunted blacktails for 38 yrs in S.W. Washington and N.W. Oregon. I believe you are all correct. Loss of clearcuts, cats, coyotes, and hair-loss-syndrome have taken a severe toll on the deer. My buddy hunts big blacktail bucks exclusively in Washington state. He believes over 1/2 the population is gone. I believe it is more like 70%. Some people think that hair loss is really an albino deer with the lighter "fuzzy" appearing hair which is most prominent on or near the hindquarter area.Cougars are next to impossible to hunt by conventional means.Ask any rancher in Eastern Oregon what they do if they see a cat. Shoot-Shovel-Shutup.