I think the short Mag fad is almost over as far as new ones.We had the Ultra mags which are about done as far as new ones.I have seen lots of short mags for sale lately whats going on?There were alot of problems at first with the ammo from Winchester.Has any one seen a Remington Short Mag Lately?I think they will disapear.Why should I buy a 338 short mag if it does appear when I have 8 good 338 win mags that all will shoot under 1" at 100 yards.I wanted a 416 Ultra mag but I have 8,000 pieces of 416 Rem Mag Brass .This is going to create a big mess when the ammo is no longer made a few years down the line.I see hunters already trying to buy 300 Rem Short Mag for Their winchester 300 wsm.It sold alot of rifles but I have herd alot of complaints.I worked in a large gun chain shop when they first came out.I laughed when guys said this is so much better than my 300 win mag.I saw them a year or so later and they had sold their short mag.I asked them why answer I didnt like it.I am seeing some writers saying the same thing.If you stick a big bullet into then like the 220 gr it will touch the primer to seat it to mag.I dont know what trick is next for the gun makers.Maybe they can redo the medium mags.Hey Winchester did that in the late 50s and early 60s.I am wondering how many got rid of their short mags or had problems?

Must be slow in your area, but it seems from a lot of posts from others from around the states that they are still selling like crazy. Took almost a year just to get my select Winchester 270 WSM, just because that model was selling faster than they were being shipped to the dealers.

You are a bad salesman...instead of ragging on their previous purchase and essentially telling them they were stupid you should have sold them a regular mag and moved some more inventory...

I still want a 300 WSM, maybe a Browning or Sako. The new 243 WSSM is also very interesting looking to me. I buy the whole "short bolt is better" theory.

I wouldn't ssuggest that anyone who has a 243 trade it in on a 243 WSSM, but why would anyone who doesn't have either buy the regular 243? O.K., I can think of a couple of reasons, but a short mag is still a good idea for a first time purchaser of a specific caliber.

Many of us are interested in what the real sales rates and totals are. My guess is that the WSM's are doing very well. In fact what has created as much interest in bolt action rifles in the last twenty or so years?

I look at this as fun. It does not matter to me if some cartridge makes it or not. There is just more to talk about.

As to the merit of the RUM's, WSM's, SAUM's and WSSM's the market will decide. For me there is no downside. I prefer a rifle cartridge that headspaces on the shoulder anyway. In theory such a design has greater accuracy potential over the belted design and of course greater case life for handloading.

Since the manufacturers have chosen to introduce a particular new cartridge the motive has to be to increase profits. Such increased profits can lead to better products. The argument that the introduction of new cartridges will not leave money for quality improvments does not make sense from a dollars and cents standpoint.

I guess I'm doing something wrong in my 300 WSM. I see the statement that if I load it with 200 or 220 grain bullets that I won't be able to load them up to speed because they take up too much case space. Every load that I have is running about 85% of case capacity and so I have alot of empty room in the case for the longer shank of the 200 grain bullets and have no problems with this.

I've got a 300WSM, and I like it.

I would never suggest to someone that they should turn in a good 300 to get a short mag, but there is nothing wrong with the shorts.

To say that you must seat the bullet to the primer is just ignorant. You may not be able to get the velocity that a 300 WM can with a 220 bullet, but it's going to be pretty darn close.

I don't see the SAUM's selling very well. The WSM's seem to be sellign exceptionally nicely, though. Brass isn't a problem, and most stores are stocking the ammo now.

I don't have any of the short mags yet. Not because I don't find them interesting, it's because I have the "regular" mags that they're supposed to duplicate. Why change at this point. Now, if they come out with a good 25 (Not the WSSM) or a 6.5 WSM or 6.5 RSUM I may have to have one.

Bob257

I never had one, never felt the actual need to get one either. But there are otehrs who do, soo good for them. IF some ice cream makers dish out 30 or 40 flavors, why can't the cartridge/rifle companies do the same. The WSSM seems to be a real bitch to work from a magazine.



I can't see what type of advantages they would have over the medium and long mags, but advantages are not rational when it comes to buying rifles, desire is.



If you got a short mag in a short action you must seat heavy bullets soo deep that the base of the bullet is not that far from the primer



I would like some maker to bring the 6,5-270WIN with a 25 or 30 degree shoulder angle in to a factory round. The 6,5X65 Brenneke has a to short neck in my opinion. I hope winchester does



Cheers

/ JOHAN

You could take this post and move it back in time about 2 years. It is the type of missinformed hogwash that was very prevelent then. People just ignore the more effecient powder burn by saying it just plain won't work with heavier bullets. None of these profits of doom ever pulled the trigger on one, so how can they state it as fact?

You couldn't get my 300 WSM for 3 times what I paid for it! When I bought it, I didn't have a 30 caliber anything. For a short time, I thought I wanted a rem 300 ultra mag. A quick check of the internet told me that the velocity claims were all wet. Then the hugh powder charges that they require finished any wantings I had. 300 wim mag owners are still mad to be burning 10 grains more expensive powder than I am to get the same velocities. So they come on forums everywhere and bad mouth the WSM family.

The SAUM started out behind and will stay there. All because they had to work with the limited length of the model 7.

Win Browning did it right when coming out with the WSSM. They designed a completely new shorter short action. A full 1/2 inch shorter that the standard short action.

Anybody that buys one of the new WSSM's that isn't a handloader, will have trouble finding ammo at first. Hell I found a box of 300WSM ammo before I even had my rifle. That was may of 2001!

dgr416...
That was a pretty pessimistic post! What brought these feelings forth? I've worked in two separate gun stores this past year and I tell you, the demand for the short mags has been steady (and maybe actually rising) since their introduction. One thing I do tell customers is that they will not achieve the same velocity in their handloads (mostly with the 300WSM) as they would with a 300Win Mag, but for good factory loadings, especially the 150gr Ballistic Silvertip and 180gr Power Point and Failsafe, along with Federal's new line of Ballistic Tip and Partition ammo, that's good enough for a majority of the customers. The only other cartridge line that I've seen do this well is the .17HMR. The others on this thread said it right...it is exciting, and while I wouldn't go trade a good standard mag, or a .223 or .243 on their Short and Super Short Winchester counterparts, I will recommend them to people who want a handy little round that packs a good punch. But I hardly ever have to do the recommending...I would say that a good 80% of my customers that come in have already made up their mind about the WSM line, and the general consensus is: they want one. While I do concede that there is a lot of marketing "hype" about them, but when isn't there "hype" about something new...don't forget about the "hype" when the 30-06 came out (over the 30-30) and when the 300 Win Mag came out (over the 30-06)...the plain and simple truth is, the short mags sell very well, and everyone I know who owns a good solid rifle chambered for them has yet to complain about performance, both at the bench and in the field.

I have a 7saum m700, and love it. But if I didn't have a short action m700 stock laying around needing a home, I probably would of went with the standard 7mm rem mag...but I do not regret the purchase, it is a great cartridge.

Well, I will break stride here;

If those that like them and buy them enjoy them then who are we to criticize them. The manufacturers came out with them just to have something different to sell. They all will do the job both larger and lesser cartridges in the same caliber will do.

As for myself, I see no need for any of them personally. In fact just looking at a cartridge of any one of them, makes me laugh if people are thinking they are gaining a lot over a regular long accepted cartridge, or loosing much when downsizing to a shorter mag. Point blank range does not really change that much at all.

I personally have no need for them or interest in them. However if it keeps selling firearms and keeps our hunting sports alive and away from all of those self professed "liberal" environmentalists ( emphasis on the MENTAL) then I am 100% for them.

I think you're pissin' upwind. If I had to buy my 300 WSM over again ......... I'd buy it over again.

Not interested in them at all and Don't want one but bring on all those new cartridges they will produce. Keep the shooting sport growing for the future. I am still working on well established older cartridges I never shot in my younger years. There is plenty of room on the shelf for all new cartridge offerings they care to produce.

I applaud every new cartridge that is introduced, as long as they don't start discontinuing some of the older cartridges. As long as they sell well they will make them. I like my 300 Winchester magnums performance and do not have the need nor want to try the short magnum cases. Just another new kid on the block to promote rifle and supply sales. Just like the new rimfire 17 caliber to pump new desires in the that group. The old 45-70 will take any and all game animals in North America and has never been eclipsed by any game getting cartridge since the introduction of the great shooting 45-70.

It is not need that drives the sport of shooting market place, it is nothing more than want. If only one cartridge were available for us to use hunting all us died in the wool hunters would have one and be very happy we did.

The name of the game is create want, then support that want with a quality product that sells well. All manufacturers try to produce a certain number of new products each year to promote new sales. The goal is new sales, then support products to feed that want. New cartridges breed bullets, dies, brass, to feed that want. It is a win, win situation for us all in the shooting sport. Bring em on by the truck load and the sport of shooting will thrive and grow. I see no down side to new cartridges being intrduced in the market place.

To those who are mentally challenged and think no need exists for new cartridges are only helping destroy the sport of shooting. Encourage new inovations and increased sales in the sport of shooting. The gun controll, animal rights activists and anti hunting fraternaty love that attitude.

Seems "Savage" has already seen the light and dropped the saum's from their 2004 line-up.
WSM's are going stronger than ever!

The only negative I see with all the new calibres and this probably only applies to Australia not America is that it may mean components and rifles in all calibres will be in shorter supply as the total number of rifles and components is spread across a lot more calibres.

I have always seen a similar thing with buying projectiles. For example it is easier out here to get a particular 375 bullet than is the case for say 224 or 6mm since there are just so many bullets in those calibres.

Mike

I have no problem with them. But, it would be real exciting if Weatherby opened up their entire line of cartridges in a factory rifle of decent quality and a reasonable price. Let's face it, biggest deterent to purchasing a Weatherby is it's price. Ammo is high, but if the masses started shooting those weatherby cartidges, the price of ammo and brass would come down accordingly. Don't be surprized to see Weatherby do this as a survival stratagy, if they don't, they just may be out of business. They now have an ultra light 24 inch barrel Mark V with all the standard cartidges, plus the 240 weatherby retailing for about 750.00. The bolt has 6 lugs rather than 9 of the standard Mark V. Given the "success" of the short mags, that would be the reason for Weatherby to make this move. Personally, I bet there are a whole bunch of people that would love to shoot one of the Weatherby cartridges, but the price of the rifle scares you (and me) off.



And remember, the weatherby cartridges "do do something" better than most existing cartidges within their caliber. My biggest complaint of the new fat mags is they improve upon nothing in the velocity department over what is already out there. If I were a bench rest shooter, the fat mags would be attractive, but I am not, I am a hunter.

My WSM/SAUM experience has been restricted to the usual range experiments with rifles that belong to other people. My limited testing hasn't exactly convinced me to rush out and buy one or more of the short-mags for my own use.

Quite honestly, I'm happy with the belted 7mm Rem. Mag., .300 Win. Mag., .338 Win. Mag., .375 H&H, and .416 Rem. Mag. cartridges. These, plus the .22 LR, .223 Rem., .44-40, .30-30, .270 Win., and .30-06 cartridges satisfy just about all of my rifle shooting requirements, and if I add another cartridge to my battery, it'll be a .458 Lott.

Besides, I have some excellent rifles chambered for the cartridges I mentioned which I have no intention of replacing with anything else.

AD

Like most of the above folks, I wouldn't go trade in a long mag for a short mag. I have several 30-06's and I have no desire to buy a 300 WSM. But when I decided I wanted a new 270cal rifle, I bought a 270 WSM over the standard 270 or the Weatherby 270.

I get 200+ fps better velocity than the standard 270 if I want/need the extra speed. I get almost as good velocity as the Weatherby with less powder and with Brass that is 1/2 the price of the weatherby brass.

It is accurate, maybe that is because it's inherent in a short mag. It's easy to reload. I am getting excellent brass life out of my reloads. What's the downside?

Unlike older calibers where there are lots of older guns on the market, and the factory ammo is loaded down to be safe in older guns. The factory ammo for WSM's is pretty hot. Probably because the ammo manufactures know all the guns are new and in good condition. In fact it is hard to improve on the factory velocities by handloading.

They are selling well here. I see even Remington is now offering a rifle chambered in 270WSM. That says alot about the success of Winchester.

Painted Horse, you just nailed the WSM I would buy and that is the 270 WSM because it does do something different.

I will get a short mag when they can out do the following cartridges:The 338 win Mag ,The 338-378 Weatherby ,The 416 Rem mag.I have looked at 50bmg spotter rounds they look like real nice short mag round for .416 or new .408 caliber.I chatted with famous writer who does not think most short mags will survive.I think 300 wsm and 270wsm will make it.I dont think the others will set the world on fire..If you like them thats fine.I was wondering if anyone had problems with their guns.I hardly ever see any remington short mag ammo.The 22PPC was and still is an awesome short mag. It is one of the most accurate bench rest rifles around.It was chambered by Ruger and Stoger and they disapeared.It flopped as a commersial cartridge.The Remington 350 mag and 6.5 mm mags are back that flopped before I guess remington still had reamers for them .I hope he 350 rem mag makes it.It was a short mag before short mags were cool.Alot of custom short mags are made on long actions to be able to seat the bullet out to the base of the cartridge .The result a short mag in a long action that looses its short mag throw .

The Short Mags are fine new additions, but probably the remingtons will loose out to the winchesters. I tested both a 270 WSM and a 300 WSM extensively, and found the claims for velocity and efficiency to be true.

I found the 300 WSM to be the best for handloading due to the typical flexibility of 30 caliber in a 1 in 10 twist barrel. Hot varmint load was Hornady 110 HP driven by 75 grs of W760 at 3777 fps. Although loud, this is a very safe round as it vaporizes when it touches anything...even at long range with a rotation rate of 272,000 RPM and the .308 diameter.

It is also very accurate with 55 gr .224 cal Sabots and 65 grs of AA2230 at 4395 fps. These are low pressure loads and the barrel remains cool for many rounds.

At the other end of the scale 220 gr Hornadys clock 2744 fps with 65 grs of R22 at safe pressures. The rumors about not shooting heavy bullets is poppycock. The load density on this one was only 94%.

The 300 WSM is really just a fat 308 Win that uses the same powders as the 300 Win Mag. Its accuracy potential is similar to the 22 PPC.

The big RUMs are a different story as the potential for overbore barrel burnout looms large in the 7MM and 300 RUM. One really needs very slow powders and at least a 26 inch bbl to make these sing...I worked with a 300 for a year and AA8700 really brought it to life. But these charge weights are UP there for the energy yeild and one is paying a high price for a flat trajectory that is not all that much better than smaller .308 and 7MM Mags.

The 338 RUM is better, and I got it to smoke 225 gr Speers 3245 fps with R25 in a 26 inch bbl, with 250 grainers over 2900 fps. Again, however, one is buying flat trajectory with a LOT of powder...out to 300 yards one is just as well off in North America with a 338 Win Mag. The extra energy is all velocity and not that useful in the field.

King of the RUM hill, however, is the 375 RUM, and this puppy IS different. Expansion ratio is right between the '06 and 270, and if you look at the ballistics of a 270 in a 26 inch bbl but double the bullet weight and energy, you have the 375 RUM. The factory loads are 5000 FPE and still only 90% of max pressure and energy. I have developed several safe loads that exceed 2950 fps with IMR 7828, but was left wondering what the h*** I would ever use it for. So, I throttle back to 2850 fps, and this is a manageable load with a good recoil pad and no brake. Both the Nosler 260 gr Ballistic Tip and partition do what the 130 gr 270 does...clip along at 3000 to 3100 fps and resist slowing down. Anything lighter goes too fast, so I tried out the case with reduced loads and got a BIG surprise...Just like the 270 and '06, you can cut back 300 or 400 fps and still get excellent accuracy. So, the handloader can replicate the 35 Whelen with 250 grainers loafing along at 2500 fps, or the H&H with 270 grainers at 2650 fps.

The 375 RUM is begging for a 350 to 370 gr bullet in a factory load at 2600 fps as that will put it in .416 Rem and Rigby territory while dropping what is essentially excessive velocity and trading it for bullet mass...A STOPPER.

I love my Savage Weather Warrior in 300WSM.

It shoots 180gr Ballistic Tips or Partitions well inside of an inch and I get published velocities.

I have heard some wierd stories about factory ammo being way over the top in velocity but have only shot my handloads because that's the kind of hairpin I am.

$bob$

i'm not i've been trying to get my 6.5-284 to shoot 140 gr bullets for elk, to no avail. the twist is 1x9.5 so i'll have save it for deer with 125 gr bullets. anyway, i don't have a "elk" gun, so i am having my savage .308 tactical (too heavy to lug around the mountains) re-barreled. the action will be blessed with a SS Krieger in 300 WSM. i like the idea that a 24" barrel will do the same as a 26" 300 WM with a shorter action.