The weather was cooler then normal at the ranch this weekend due to nearby thunderstorms. Unfortunately they didn't quite make it far enough south. Mature buck movement has been slim and none during the daylight hours. I did get a couple of pictures of a nice up and coming buck that is kinda unusual. He has 14 typical points. He also has split brow tines making a total of 16 points. Last year he was a typical 12 with split brow tines for a total of 14 points. He could amount to something in another year or two.

What monster! Dare I ask (without intention of starting a brawl, but more out of curiosity), is this behind a high fence or is the free-range?

At any rate, that is a beautiful animal.

Is the Jack-a-lope a doe? That must be why it doesn't have antlers. Everything else has antlers

Great looking buck.

I wonder how much better he would be at this stage if you all had been getting some descent rainfall the past few months.

quote:

Dare I ask (without intention of starting a brawl, but more out of curiosity), is this behind a high fence or is the free-range?

The ranch is 2500 acres and is high fenced. I don't do breeding pens or have a stocking program so all the deer are native. Although my ranch is high fenced I wish it wasn't necessary. Two years ago one of my neighbors shot at least six and most likely eight bucks that we had been passing because they were not mature. I've hunted both high and low fence places and couldn't tell any difference in how the animals acted.

M16, I understand where you are coming from. Trigger happy neighbors with no management in mind can be very frustrating.

All kidding aside. M16, those are great looking bucks. Would like to see what they turn into in a couple years!!


Andy

Not to go overboard, but to say "he has potential" is disrespectful to the animal. He could amount to something in a year or two? That animal is better than 99% of us will ever take, and you're saying that in a couple of years he may be worth harvesting based upon what? He is an awesome animal, with an amazing set of antlers. Probably will score very well (I'm no expert, but looks to be damn near 200" - I know Texas deer are a lot smaller than the northern whitetails I'm used to, so maybe only 180s. So sad.).

Just my opinion, but if you're passing up animals like that, you're missing the point of hunting. If you're trying to grow the biggest buck in the world, fine. But you're "deer farming". Enjoy the outdoors, and take a nice deer. But if you get too caught up in what he'll score (or whether he's 6 or 7 years old, etc.), you diminish the value of a life and reduce it to a number. I practice selective harvest, but the best hunt I've ever been on involved a buck sporting his first set of antlers. Even though he would have been an awesome buck at 4 or 5 years old, he'll never get that chance because my little sister got the opportunity to kill her first deer. And that's bigger than any set of antlers he would ever have grown. JMHO, don't want to piss anyone off. Just don't consider that to be what hunting is all about.

gd

Not saying that I disagree with your assessment of things, but depending on which side of the issue you are on, deer hunting in Texas especially has become a game of inches and $$$$$$.

While I can understand the landowners/deer managers position, I too can't help but feeling the reason we are supposed to be deer hunting has been prostituted over antler size.

The bucks produced on places like M16's have become the Holy Grail of many folks.

While I do not agree with it, I can not say that they are wrong.

My stance is, the people to blame for the present state of affairs, are hunters.

If hunters were not willing to up the price/demand for trophy bucks, then the efforts put forth to produce such animals would not be as dilligent.

Many folks have lost the basic concept of why we hunt, all in the name of antler size.

M16 has spent a lot of time/effort/energy to produce animals such as this, he is not responsible for the demand for such animals and should not be held in contempt for simply finding a way of supplying a commodity that many people are willing to pay top dollar for.

I know that probably is not a good explanation, but land owners/managers put a lot of time and effort into making their properties produce quality animals, and even though some folks may not like it or agree with it, it ios the way things are here in Texas, and they are not going to change in the near future. JMO.

It's hard for people who don't live in Texas to understand but I'll try to make it simple, which always means that there are exceptions to broad generalities. In Texas, on many, but by no means all, ranches deer are the main reason that the land has the value it does. For instance, in the famed "Golden Triangle" of Texas, so named for it's big antlered deer growing qualities, 30 years ago land was just a few dollars an acre since it is nearly worthless for raising cattle......depending on where you are it might take anywhere from 30 to 300 acres for a cattle unit, which in a good year might produce $200 profit per CU......that land is now readily selling for between $1500 and $2500 per acre or more......why, simply because people will pay for the deer or the deer hunting rights....... a deer such as M16 has shown could easily bring $10,000 or more as a package hunt.......that pays for several acres of land. Many ranches make much more money off their hunting than they do off their cattle.....the King Ranch, 700,000 acres or so, is a notable example. Many ranches would not be able to operate if cattle was their sole income. It's not denigrating the deer, but in Texas, they are business as well as pleasure. The people who can afford it hunt such deer for their sporting pleasure, the people who can't afford the loss of revenue or who are just not interested in deer hunting, sell them to those who can pay the going value for such animals. In addition, many ranches that have excellent deer quality also have good quail hunting, which is often sold as a separate lease or day hunted after the deer season is over. More income from native animals, which is one reason so many ranches are really interested in quality deer management and are high fenced.

The previous post brings to mind hunting iin RSA. One has to fence to keep out the poachers as well as enable managing the game.
IF hunters didn't spend the bucks to hunt in RSA , quality hunting would probably be almost non existent.

That said....it's still sad to see that deer quantified simply into inches and the profit derived from those inches.

FN in MT

quote:

That said....it's still sad to see that deer quantified simply into inches and the profit derived from those inches.

I want to make it clear that by no means all deer in Texas are "quantified" but unlike most places there is very little public land available for deer hunting, so land owners can and, in many cases do, convert their deer crop into dollars in their pocket. Even in my neck of the woods, which has relatively few really big deer, the leases cost about $5-$10 an acre or so on average. This compares to $50 or so in the Golden Triangle, depending on size of property, amenities, etc. Some places on the King Ranch that are deer leased, usually by corporations, have MANSIONS built for the hunters to use, and this is on land the builders don't own.

It's not better, it's nor worse, it's just a different system than most hunters are used to. OTOH, you don't have to dodge everyone's 4 wheeler's, worry as much about being shot by some yahoo, or have to worry about whether your deer stand will be occupied by someone else when you get there, etc on private leases.

Gatogordo you said unlike most places there is very little public land available for deer hunting. I am in north west (lower) Michigan and there is not a lot of public land here that I would consider hunting. I think it is becoming more of a problem as time goes on. Your points on someone occupying your hunt spot or being shot by another hunter, are reasons why I don't bother to hunt public land in this area.

As FN said, there would not be much hunting available in RSA if it were not for game farms. I would have no problem hunting a high fenced area in the US, as I did in RSA. However I would not pretend it to be something different. In some cases in may not be any different.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
While I can understand the landowners/deer managers position, I too can't help but feeling the reason we are supposed to be deer hunting has been prostituted over antler size.

Here in Oregon we don't have many "high fenced" ranches. If I got the opportunity to shoot a buck even close to the one pictured, it would be the buck of a lifetime.

Besides, I tried to eat the antlers once.
No matter what BBQ sauce I used, they tasted terrible...

That is a gorgeous buck, no doubt about it!

Sorry to hear about folks along your boundaries. Trigger-happy neighbors exist everywhere and can certainly raise one's blood pressure. Even with the 13-inch minimum regulation we have in many counties, there are still plenty of idiots who shoot the first thing they see, no matter if it is legal or not.

GD wrote:

quote:

That animal is better than 99% of us will ever take, and you're saying that in a couple of years he may be worth harvesting based upon what?

--

Perhaps it's based upon the fact that this is a YOUNG deer. While I have never met M16, I can tell you from his past posts that he has a strict management program in place to keep the herd as healthy as possible -- and part of that program focuses on the taking of mature animals.

These programs are carried out in cooperation with the Texas Parks & Wildlife Department, and stringent records must be kept, surveys are continually taken -- and it's all done in the name of what's best for the health of the herd.

Would it be hard to pass on a shot on that buck? Heck YES! But considering the time, effort and $$ it takes to implement a program like M16 has, you tend to learn a bit about discipline and passing the buck, so to speak.

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:
GD wrote:

quote:

That animal is better than 99% of us will ever take, and you're saying that in a couple of years he may be worth harvesting based upon what?

--



Would it be hard to pass on a shot on that buck? Heck YES! But considering the time, effort and $$ it takes to implement a program like M16 has, you tend to learn a bit about discipline and passing the buck, so to speak.

+1! Emphasis on discipline. GD, one reason that would be the buck of a lifetime for so many hunters is the unwillingness of most to allow animals like that to mature. And the debate continues: Quantity versus quality.
+1 for Gato's explanation too; hunting leases not only make larger ranches more profitable, there are thousands of smaller land owners on inherited Texas land that would be living below the poverty level were it not for hunting revenues (unfortunately, since the demise of the Pet Rock there has been a limited market for organically grown dust or rocks).

My only dissention with Gato is whether there is a shortage of public land to hunt. I think the ratio of hunting land to public hunters is pretty high, actually. Probably because having a lease is a cultural thing here, like owning at least two pickups before thinking about your first Corvette. If you hunt like the majority of public hunters however, you'll find it pretty crowded. Most public land hunters don't put a lot of effort into it and won't go in very deep. If you're willing to go deep and pack out long distances, you can find pristine hunting grounds in most of the areas. One Texas poster here does very well every year in the Sam Houston National Forest near Houston. Ft. Hood has great hunting as does Matagorda Island, Peach Point, tons of it out west and so on.

Third is the poaching and/or baiting issue. There is nothing more frustrating than having a guy with an overgrazed 30 acre pasture alongside you that has seven or eight stands on it and constantly day-hunting three or four guys a day with the tacit understanding that if they have the juevos, they can shoot across the fence and drag it through. If they get caught, the landowner faces no penalty; only the shooter. And tomorrow will bring a replacement poacher. High fence is the only cure and at $10,000-12,000 a mile it is usually a cure of last resort for that particular problem.

quote:

Originally posted by Ryan Campbell:
M16, I understand where you are coming from. Trigger happy neighbors with no management in mind can be very frustrating.

If the land is lowfenced, the buck taken legally and on the neighbors land. Why the frustration? He has the right to shoot whatever he feels is a nice deer. That buck would be down in a second if it was viewed in the areas I hunt.

The frustration mentioned is when adjoining landowners have different goals. Not unusual at all, whether deer, water use or other issues.

An example would be if my neighbor wanted to host Woodstock III and the only legal access is through my property. I have to allow the hoards of littering Hippies access to his land, cannot demand compensation for the mess they make passing through, and cannot stop them. He has that right but it is very frustrating for me to deal with it.

And yes, most fair chase hunters would not be able to resist a legal shot at that buck.

The point is that Mr. M16 needs that buck's genes deposited in his commercial herd as many years as practical, and also by waiting another year or two he might add $5000 or more to the value of that buck when it's ready for taking. Like it or not, hunting is a business for many folks. To protect his business investment, he had to high fence his property and isolate his herd. The neighbors have their own herds and can shoot them down to predominantly spindley spikes and fork-horns, just like PA and OH if they choose to.

Bucks like that are scarce in areas like yours precisely because people shoot them when they are two year old eight or ten-point immature bucks and never get a chance to develop their true potential.

quote:

If they get caught, the landowner faces no penalty; only the shooter. And tomorrow will bring a replacement poacher. High fence is the only cure and at $10,000-12,000 a mile it is usually a cure of last resort for that particular problem.

Some of those guys have been known to bring wire cutters with them to the stand.

They finally made cutting wire a felony in Texas. Before that, the South Texas JPs would slap a poacher (usually a cousin or next of kin) with a $50 fine. Not that it slowed the bad guys down a whole lot. But the best fence wire is hardened nowadays and damn tough. It will wreck an ordinary set of side cutters or fence pliers.

My point exactly. Just because your goal is a B & C buck, does not mean that is your neighbors goal. As far as the genetics go -- my bet is his father sired several offspring, so the genes have been passed on. I guess I have a very hard time understanding paying an extra $5000 because the horns are a bit heavier or score a bit higher. Every hunter should have the right to decide what is a trophy to them. If you are dealing with free range animals they don't belong to you. I guess its a texas thing?

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:
My point exactly. Just because your goal is a B & C buck, does not mean that is your neighbors goal. As far as the genetics go -- my bet is his father sired several offspring, so the genes have been passed on. I guess I have a very hard time understanding paying an extra $5000 because the horns are a bit heavier or score a bit higher. Every hunter should have the right to decide what is a trophy to them. If you are dealing with free range animals they don't belong to you. I guess its a texas thing?

Just so you'll know, most of the people who are breeding the monster bucks and selling them or their semen believe that the doe (mother) has at least as much, if not more to do with producing the best antlered bucks.

Every hunter in Texas has the opportunity to decide what is a trophy to them. But if someone decides their "trophy" is a really good buck, chances are they are either going to have to hunt for a lifetime and maybe get one, or you can fork over the cash and have an excellent chance of killing one this season. BTW, note the word "chance", the places that manage and have big deer can't guarantee the really big bucks will cooperate, but their "medium" deer are bigger than most people ever see. Finally, as someone pointed out, you can't grow big antlered deer when you shoot every half way decent 3 year old (or younger) that steps out. That reason alone is the main reason the serious deer managers, whether for their use or commercially, go high fenced.

BTW, some people really sell "canned" big buck hunts and I, and most hunters and land owners, find that practice to be abhorrent. It all comes back to the hunter's ethics.

I know a local who kills a lot of big deer at night, while "varmint hunting". Personally I don't see how the SOB can look himself in the mirror but it doesn't bother him, he does it year after year.

Thanks for the insight. Its nice to learn from folks who are in different parts of the country.
I think you and I are on the exact same page!
"I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process".

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:
My point exactly. Just because your goal is a B & C buck, does not mean that is your neighbors goal. As far as the genetics go -- my bet is his father sired several offspring, so the genes have been passed on. I guess I have a very hard time understanding paying an extra $5000 because the horns are a bit heavier or score a bit higher. Every hunter should have the right to decide what is a trophy to them. If you are dealing with free range animals they don't belong to you. I guess its a texas thing?

I understand it is catching on all over. Personally, I would never spend $5,000 to $25,000 for a deer on a Texas ranch or anywhere else but I am fine with those who wish to do so. And I'm happy for the ranchers that can earn the revenue. I'd rather spend the money on an adventure hunt somewhere else on the planet. For that matter, I'd rather hunt hogs than deer.

As an aside, it takes skill and investment to produce enough trophy deer to make a profitable operation. The bigger the deer, the higher the overhead. Also, a lot of the ranches are playpens for a wealthy landowner and the only reason a few bucks are taken commercially is to qualify the operation as a business and therefore a write-off for the whole enterprise.

Tigger and Gato, what's with all this well-reasoned discourse? Can't you guys resort to name calling or some other type of internet fisticuffs?

You're going to give AR a bad name.

(M16, that's a super buck by the way)

Sorry Forrest but I'm suffering from exhaustion after a week on the PF.

Hey guys,

Sorry it took me so long to get back and look this over. I've been buried at work, and the internet at home is down.

This discussion is a testament to those involved. No arguments, just rational discussion.

I understand that if you're trying to let the deer get to 6 years of age or whatever your goal is that you need discipline, but you're much more disciplined than I am. How old is that buck (again, I'm used to aging northern deer)?

I guess given my background it's a little difficult to understand letting deer like that walk. But each to his own..

gd

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Not saying that I disagree with your assessment of things, but depending on which side of the issue you are on, deer hunting in Texas especially has become a game of inches and $$$$$$.

While I can understand the landowners/deer managers position, I too can't help but feeling the reason we are supposed to be deer hunting has been prostituted over antler size.

The bucks produced on places like M16's have become the Holy Grail of many folks.

While I do not agree with it, I can not say that they are wrong.

My stance is, the people to blame for the present state of affairs, are hunters.

If hunters were not willing to up the price/demand for trophy bucks, then the efforts put forth to produce such animals would not be as dilligent.

Many folks have lost the basic concept of why we hunt, all in the name of antler size.

M16 has spent a lot of time/effort/energy to produce animals such as this, he is not responsible for the demand for such animals and should not be held in contempt for simply finding a way of supplying a commodity that many people are willing to pay top dollar for.

I know that probably is not a good explanation, but land owners/managers put a lot of time and effort into making their properties produce quality animals, and even though some folks may not like it or agree with it, it ios the way things are here in Texas, and they are not going to change in the near future. JMO.

Who actually owns the deer in texas. Do the landowners own the deer, or do the people of the state of Texas own the deer?

quote:

How old is that buck (again, I'm used to aging northern deer)?

I estimate that the deer is 5.5 years old. I usually won't shoot a trophy buck until they are at least 6.5 and sometimes older. Factors include being able to find them as they age there is a tendency for them to be more difficult to locate. Sometimes you may only see them once or twice a year and sometimes not at all. Also it depends on the amount of rainfall. This year has been exceptionally dry so the antlers may not be as good as during a wet year. A trophy is in the eye of the one pulling the trigger. Since I've shot several deer that scored higher then this one it's not hard to let him go another year or two. I might add that score alone does not determine whether the trigger gets pulled. A lot of deer look better than they score.

The real answer is that nobody owns the wild deer until they are rendered to possesion. The State of Texas will tell you the people own the deer in common, but in fact, that is a legal fiction, to allow the state to dictate management practices (seasons, limits, etc). Skipping the separate issue of high fenced properties, the LAND the deer is on is usually OWNED by someone (state, local, and federal ownership excepted). That someone controls all access to said property, so if the deer stays on it, he controls who has a chance to kill that deer, subject to Texas regulations.

quote:

Who actually owns the deer in texas. Do the landowners own the deer, or do the people of the state of Texas own the deer?

Technically the state of Texas owns the deer.

But when you put up a high fence for all intents and purposes the landowner owns them. The state controls season dates and on Mangaged Lands property the amount of animals that may be taken.

Regarding the issue of who "owns" the deer, an analogy is water rights. In most states, you own the right to access the water on or under your property but the state claims certain jurisdictions. In Texas I belive the state claims actual ownership of either all surface water or all ground water, or both. Can't remember which. The regulations vary between pond and subteranean sources. Streams are a whole 'nother catagory and must be shared.

Just because the state "owns" the water doesn't mean you have to pipe some from your pond or well to a neighbor or allow him access onto your land, even though he has ownership in common as a resident of your state.

Deer (all non-migratory game) are treated similarly in Texas in that the landowner controls the use of the deer within the bounds of his property just like his pond water or well water.

Just like a landowner cannot capture a major flowing source (i.e. dam a large creek and deny landowners downstream), landowners cannot contain migratory animals like dove or geese.

So, deer = pond/well, geese = stream. Simple, no?

Also in Texas, landowners have to purchase an annual license for the ability to hunt native game commercially on their land. It could be said that payment to the state constitutes compensation to the citizens for exclusive use of "their" resource on private land. Last I heard, the fee was progressive, based on the amount of acres hunted.

Hope that helps clarify the "ownership" issue. If it were otherwise, anti-huning portions of the population could exercise their "rights in common" of their undivided interest in the deer population to prohibit the killing of game for sport. We don't want that!

A future as well-no high fence here. Dr.C

quote:

Originally posted by buckeyeshooter:

quote:

Originally posted by Ryan Campbell:
M16, I understand where you are coming from. Trigger happy neighbors with no management in mind can be very frustrating.

If the land is lowfenced, the buck taken legally and on the neighbors land. Why the frustration? He has the right to shoot whatever he feels is a nice deer. That buck would be down in a second if it was viewed in the areas I hunt.

As well he would be in most areas I hunt. However, I'm talking about people shooting 2.5yr old bucks that have no business being shot. Let him walk another year or two. I understand that not everyone is a trophy hunter but I think a little self control is in order for the greater good of the herd.
I watch deer year round where I live and I've seen some great looking young bucks, not make it past the first week of season because the neighbors shoot the first thing they see.

FWIW, I have to say that I agree with the TX guy's assessment of land management issues. They've done what they have to in order to make their land profitable.....they've supplied what is in demand. I hunt MT every year and I see plenty of folks who are "land rich but cash poor" and I think that's a shame. I wish high fences weren't necessary but the poaching issue can destroy years of QDM.

And BTW, that buck is awesome!

"high fence" can and is also a misnomer making some folks think "canned, guaranteed or easy hunt". Not necessarily so. The high fence also will NOT assure that deer do not come and go. I've seen does jump ours. For the past 12 years I have been fortunate to hunt a 1000 acre semi-managed S. Tx ranch. Last year, for the 1st time, I started using game cams. Neat little devices. I've got pictures of bucks that have never been seen by hunters. I hunted one for over a month and never saw him. I hope he bred alot and made it thru the year!

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
Not saying that I disagree with your assessment of things, but depending on which side of the issue you are on, deer hunting in Texas especially has become a game of inches and $$$$$$.

While I can understand the landowners/deer managers position, I too can't help but feeling the reason we are supposed to be deer hunting has been prostituted over antler size.

The bucks produced on places like M16's have become the Holy Grail of many folks.

While I do not agree with it, I can not say that they are wrong.

My stance is, the people to blame for the present state of affairs, are hunters.

If hunters were not willing to up the price/demand for trophy bucks, then the efforts put forth to produce such animals would not be as dilligent.

Many folks have lost the basic concept of why we hunt, all in the name of antler size.

M16 has spent a lot of time/effort/energy to produce animals such as this, he is not responsible for the demand for such animals and should not be held in contempt for simply finding a way of supplying a commodity that many people are willing to pay top dollar for.

I know that probably is not a good explanation, but land owners/managers put a lot of time and effort into making their properties produce quality animals, and even though some folks may not like it or agree with it, it ios the way things are here in Texas, and they are not going to change in the near future. JMO.

Who actually owns the deer in texas. Do the landowners own the deer, or do the people of the state of Texas own the deer?

THe people of the state of Texas own the wildlife regardless of whose land it is on.

Dogcat is correct. There is a legal difference in the wording of the law as to who owns the deer in TX.
It states in the law that the People of the State, as opposed to the State itself, own the deer.
Supposedly this is so that the State is not liable for the destruction caused by deer on automobiles during collisions.
I have talked to Senior Game Wardens in Austin and they confirmed that it is the People of the State, not the State itself that own the deer, no matter who's land it is on or if it is high fenced.
The exception to this is if you have a breeders permit whereby you can own specific deer that must be tagged with records kept that are subject, at any time, to inspection by TPWD.