I have been an avid hunter for three full decades. I have read accounts where almost everyone who has shot so much as a gopher is a bonafide benchrest expert. Do you ever read a post from someone who doesnt put five shots into a quarter at 100 yards? I have even had the pleasure of hunting with some of these deadeyes. It never fails to amaze me when someone who reports to be such an excellent shot can miss a large whitetail buck standing still at 125 yards. It seems inconceivable but to watch someone miss a bull moose at 80 yards after he has told you the night before about groundhogs at 500 yards plus has actually happened.
My point is that no matter how accurate a guy you may be off the bench, very few of us pack such a thing with us when hunting. Can you hit a pie plate offhand at 100 yards four out of five? Bet you cant. From the sitting position can you hit a deer target lethally four out of five at 200 yards? Bet you cant!
My advice to any/all of us who pursue this game of hunting is to sight your rifle in very carefully and then get your butt off the chair and practice from positions you will use when hunting; prone,sitting,kneeling and standing. I would far rather hunt with someone shooting a 3 MOA rifle they could actually use than someone toting a 10 pound overscoped,hard kicking magnum they claimed shot 3/4 inch groups.
Has anyone out there had similar experiences?

You are giving good advice!

quote:

Originally posted by bwest:
Can you hit a pie plate offhand at 100 yards four out of five? Bet you cant.

quote:

Yes, I can. I'd even bet 5 for 5!

[QUOTE] From the sitting position can you hit a deer target lethally four out of five at 200 yards? Bet you cant! [QUOTE] And again! Yes I can.

Has anyone out there had similar experiences?

I do however agree with your point. It has been my experience that many don't practice at all through the year. Many are using the same box of shells for years!

Your point of a 3 MOA rifle being useful is understood as well. The thing is, on this site, most of us are what I would consider "avid" hunters / riflemen and those are the guys or gals that can and do shoot for practice and fun.

I myself practice from field positions at know distances when setting up a rifle. The take it out and use it in the field at targets of unknown distances. (jacks, ground squirrels, coyotes) I'm disapointed in myself when I shoot a 2 1/2" group at 200 yards! I shoot at an 8" gong at 350 yards, and have a gong at 400 yards thats 10". There is a 6" at 300, and a 4" at 200 yards also.
I put three overlapping holes on paper the other day while working up a new load for my .25-06. It is a tupperware stocked Win M70. I fell on it while dragging my deer out this fall and scratched the crown and had made no effort to check it on paper until then. This was off the hood of my rig, without sandbags, or any devices.

So in my eyes, if I can take an abused rifle and shoot quarter size groups with it at 100 yards without the aid of a bench thats satisfying to me. When I can do it with each of my hunting rifles, thats a confidence builder!

I hardly believe that I'm any different than many other people here on this forum. In fact I'm probably below average in my abilities, compared to some on this board. I have no custom rifles, and don't get to shoot as much as I'd like. I do love to hunt, practice often, and rarely shoot from a bench. I'd agree there are many who don't judge distance well, hence the 400 yard shot was really 225 or so, and that the tendancy to exagerate ones abilities seems most prominent in certain people. Those are the guys I won't hunt with, and prefer not to hunt anywhere near!

To me the accuracy myths are more along the lines of sworn brand loyalty, with denial that anything else will shoot!

You definately bring up some valid issues that I've seen among casual hunters! You know...the guy who's asking the clerk if he should be using "more grains" for deer!

The timing of your post couldn't have been better -- I haven't been hunting with any regularity in a long time, and it shows. I missed an easy shot at a grey fox yesterday, and I couldn't believe it! Yeah, I can shoot pretty well from a bench, but my field shooting is poor. Time to get back out and shoot, plink, practice, practice and practice some more.

point well made.....

And too many rely on past laurels. Was with the USAF Marksmanship School in the 60s-70s. I sure wish I could shoot as well now as I did back then. But, back then they were paying me a salary to shoot and giving me the ammo. I've been extremely fortunate that most of my "head up the wazoo" misses were not witnessed...and a number of the great hits were!

quote:

My advice to any/all of us who pursue this game of hunting is to sight your rifle in very carefully and then get your butt off the chair and practice from positions you will use when hunting; prone,sitting,kneeling and standing.

Excellent point bwest.

I finally started doing what you suggest. After many many trips to the range getting rifle after rifle just so I have turned to shooting from the ground more and offhand as you suggest.

Yes, I can go off-hand 4/5 into a pie plate at 100 yds; in fact I can do it at 200 yds.

I just shot a mulie a few months back at a touch over 400 yds from a seated position. Went 2/2 right through the lungs...

I can do these things, BUT...

... I practice religiously, from all conceivable hunting positions - prone, seated, off hand, from sticks, from bi-pod, etc.. Thousands of rounds per year. In fact, I have rifles that are on their 3rd, 4th, and 5th barrels!

I think a hunter owes it to his quarry to be comptetant at the time of dispatch, and practice is the only way...

quote:

Originally posted by bwest: From the sitting position can you hit a deer target lethally four out of five at 200 yards? Bet you cant!

So, what are we betting? With my 7mag, I do 6" at 300 yards and 140 gr. XLC's, down to 4" with luck.

On the other hand, my little girl was shooting 95% on clays at 100 yards from sitting and crossed sticks, and yet missed a cow elk at 180 yards. Twice. Talk about frustration.....

Shooting at a target ain't the same thing as shooting at a living breathing animal, on a muddy hill, with cold toes and near frozen fingers. Technical skills are one thing. It takes a few years before you can coolly put those skills to work in the field. About three decades would do it, as a matter of fact. JMO, Dutch.

Don't Forget about Buck Fever.....

There's many men that can shoot great from the bench or from field positions but they can not control the Fever. I find the Fever is the cause of a very high percentage of misses.

I don't consider myself a very good marksman but, I know I'm capable of shooting descent groups (say.25"-.5" or so) from the Bench if my rifle and load is capable. I can hit fairly well from field positions as well BUT, I'll be the first to tell you that some of the animals I've taken were not hit exactly where I thought I'd hit them. For example, I've made several high lung hits on bucks when I felt pretty confident I'd placed them through the top of the heart area but, the hairs were wiggling every time my heart pounded. Learning to control the Fever is a mental game.

I've noticed that some folks that are sorry shots are very effective game killers just because they don't get very excited when the game presents a shot.

On the other hand, take a fella that can't shoot too great and he gets terrible Buck Fever as well and you have a recipe for disaster.

Shooting Ability does have an effect on effectiveness while afield but, there are far more variables to deal w/.

Reloader

quote:

Originally posted by Reloader:
Don't Forget about Buck Fever.....

There's many men that can shoot great from the bench or from field positions but they can not control the Fever. I find the Fever is the cause of a very high percentage of misses.
...
Reloader

Any cures for Buck Fever? I've managed to avoid the flu this year, but seems I've picked up a bad case of the fever...

quote:

Any cures for Buck Fever? I've managed to avoid the flu this year, but seems I've picked up a bad case of the fever...

If I ever find it, I think I'll hang up my hunting gear .

I sure haven't found a way to get a way from it but, I have been able to deal w/ it enough to take piles of game.

Seems if I just try to concentrate on something besides the animal or something on the animal (Not Horns! ) I manage to place a good shot. I'm pretty good about turning off the Fever at the moment I shoot but, after I squeeze man, does it ever hit hard! I love it!

The worst it gets to me is when I have to watch the animal for a long time or if I hear em' coming but, it takes them a while to get there. Archery hunting comes to mind.

Just this last weekend I had a Buck tear the woods up chasing a doe and he never popped out of the brush and showed himself. I tried everything in the bag but couldn't get him to come to me. After several minutes my heart was pounding pretty hard.

Reloader

The only cure for buck fever is experience. The more you hunt and see deer under hunting conditions the less it will affect you. At least until the next biggest deer you have ever seen walks into your sights!

Here's some shooting perspective for you all. The NRA SR highpower target used for the 200 yard offhand and rapid fire sitting events has a 3 inch X ring and a 7 inch 10 ring. In a typical highpower match a High Master classification shooter will post a 20 shot 200 yard offhand score in the neighborhood of 197-198 with perhaps a 10-11 X count. That means in 20 shots the top 1% of all shooters will miss the 10 ring at least 2-3 times. Mind you this is with tricked out match rifles, aperture sights, leather coats, and black bullseyes on white backgrounds. In my experience a typical Expert class shot...maybe the top 20% of all competitors will post an offhand score in the mid 180s. with an x count of maybe 5 or 6. This means he will miss the 7 inch wide 10 ring at least 10 times and sometimes throw a shot into the 8 ring (12 inches wide). A Sharpshooter will score in the 160's...

I'll never forget the day the FBI sniper unit showed up at a highpower match with their tricked out M16's. There was alot of bragging about how they were going to show us how to shoot a rifle etc. When we put the first targets up at 200 yards they were a little amazed the target was so far away. They shut up and turned kinda white when they found out they had to make the shot offhand with no scope!!!! I think they collectively had a heart attack when we moved back to the 600 yard line. They quietly packed up and went home that day...

Scopes won't help much in a Highpower match anyhow...and certainly very little at 200 yards with a black bull on white paper.

So I kinda smile when people begin telling me how they can shoot 2 MOA all day long offhand...yeah, perhaps if you are shooting to the level of the VERY best rifle shots in the nation... But under field conditions, with a lightweight hunting rifle, no shooting jacket, unsupported? Sure ya can...

quote:

The only cure for buck fever is experience. The more you hunt and see deer under hunting conditions the less it will affect you. At least until the next biggest deer you have ever seen walks into your sights!

Maybe true for some but not for many.

I've killed well over 100 of the little boogers and I still get excited even when a doe pops out.

I never forget how excited my Grandpa used to get. He killed a pile of whitetails during his lifetime and he still got the fever even when he took a doe. Good times.

Probably has alot to do w/ population densities as well. When we go to Texas hunting the deer are everwhere so there's just not a whole lot to get excited about until a big bruiser steps out. On the other hand, I've hunted places where you didn't see a hair for several hunts and when a doe or small bucks popped out, it was quite exciting.

Reloader

I aint gonna lie, I need to practice more. My offhand sitting groups are 12" @ 100yd. Let the excuses begin... I thing I can tighten that up with more practice and a trigger job.

bwest, your point is well taken. I think a lot of the folks here can do it, but as stated above, most here are more avid than the normal Joe about practice. I know I am.

As for the Fever, I know this may sound strange, but I used the same technique on my daughter that all of the violence on TV people spout....I "desensitized" her by having her watch videos of both large bucks and does being hunted and shot. It is the only real use (other than pure entertainment) I have found for hunting shows. She shows no signs of fever that I can tell. I have only had it once in 20 years and it was my first muzzleloader doe at 10 yards.

It's been my experience that there are shooters and then there are killers. My favorite hunting partner can't shoot a 1/4 inch group off the bench but sure can whack the game he is after. Have never seen him miss a field shot or loose an animal. He is what I call a killer.

Good post Nimrod. I used to fish tournies a lot. Its amazing how little some of those "five pound" bass weigh when you put them on a scale.

When hunting, I always use a Harris Bipod to get as steady as possible. The bipods are worth the investment.

Bwest
I was very lucky to have my Dad's brother be my hunting mentor. He believed and taught me that if you could put 5 shots freehand in a small (saucer) size paper plate at one hundred yards you would always bring home the meat. That's how I learned to hunt and shoot. Tell you I had a fair amount of success.

Shoot off the bench for zeroing but after that you had better be doing some serious free hand shooting. We do that every year back in Eastern Montana while we are PD hunting. We do PD at 50 to 100 yards pretty consistantly with 22lr's

I don't own a single gun that will put 5 bullets into 1/2" everytime. I have guns that will shoot a 1/2" group if I am perfect that day. There are just way too many times that I cannot shoot as well as some of my rifles to go out and say that any gun will always shoot 1/2".

On field positions I shoot my varmint guns prone or off of a bench because I have bipods and portable shooting benches with me when I go out varmint shooting.

There is no question most guns can shoot better than most hunters. Yet an accurate gun does help the overall equation.

One of the tricks I have found helpful is to use balloons for practicing. I will take the 4-wheeler and place balloons blown up to about 6 inches in diameter around the farm. Some in fields and some in the woods. Easy way to practice different distances and shooting positions. The kids love it.

It is also a good way for most to see what their "limits" are.

Very good post. Try to bring it up again in August. I was talking to one of the guys on our lease Tuesday and he was telling about one of the guys getting buck fever real bad and could not hold his gun still when he shot anyway. They found a couple pieces of bone and a rare drop of blood and gave up after 4 hrs. It is not supposed to be that way. Hunters need more practice and they need to know the limits of their equipment. Most here have very close relationships with their little and big sweethearts. We are unfortunately the minority.
Hunters need more range time and a lot of practice away from the bench.
I like to use one of those shoot and c 8 inch targets at 100 yds from various positions.
I don't know what cures buck fever unless it is time. Maybe in the early days it is "oh my God, a deer, a deer, I hope he doesn't see me, I hope he doesn't run, hope I don't miss" and panic sets in. What I see now is a hairy target and I am performing a bullet test like at the range. Calm and panic are controllable emotions. Maybe not easy to control but controllable.
We have lots of range time between now and next season. Have fun.

Almost all of the bad shots on game have to be due to non practice in field positions and getting too nervous.

This thread is one of the first that really kept going on Buck Fever or being nervous and I hope the topic comes up again. It's not the group size of the gun but the bad aiming that misses and wounds the game for the most part.

quote:

Bet you cant.

Bet I can. Other than that you make some valid points.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
I don't own a single gun that will put 5 bullets into 1/2" everytime. I have guns that will shoot a 1/2" group if I am perfect that day. There are just way too many times that I cannot shoot as well as some of my rifles to go out and say that any gun will always shoot 1/2".

On field positions I shoot my varmint guns prone or off of a bench because I have bipods and portable shooting benches with me when I go out varmint shooting.

You say that you dont own a single rifle that will shoot 1/2" everytime. Then you said that you cannot shoot as well as some of your rifles. SO I think what you are saying is that you cannot shoot 1/2" everytime, not the rifles.

I won't claim 2MOA offhand, but I shoot offhand a lot and can hit a clay pigeon 3/4 of the time at 100 yards with a fairly large rifle like a 9.3x62 or a .375 H&H. Give me one with a junk trigger however and I will cut that in half real quick. Even so, I managed to miss a big kudu at 150 yards, hunting and practice are two different things.

Fjold

I sure have a pair, both varmint rifles that will always shoot .5, on a good day they will put 5 as close as .2. One is a very heavy .223, the other is a .220 Ackley Improved Swift. The heavier rifles are more forgiving if you are having a bad day. With these two, if i call a shot off, it will be a quarter inch out.

quote:

Can you hit a pie plate offhand at 100 yards four out of five? Bet you cant

I do not use pie plates they are to big. But I can go 4 out of 5 on clay piegons on average. As for a hard kicking magnum the rifle I shoot the most accurate off hand is my 375 H&H with a 4-12 Leupold. That rifle weighs 9lbs scoped.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bwest:
I have been an avid hunter for three full decades. I have read accounts where almost everyone who has shot so much as a gopher is a bonafide benchrest expert. Do you ever read a post from someone who doesnt put five shots into a quarter at 100 yards? I have even had the pleasure of hunting with some of these deadeyes. It never fails to amaze me when someone who reports to be such an excellent shot can miss a large whitetail buck standing still at 125 yards. It seems inconceivable but to watch someone miss a bull moose at 80 yards after he has told you the night before about groundhogs at 500 yards plus has actually happened.
My point is that no matter how accurate a guy you may be off the bench, very few of us pack such a thing with us when hunting. Can you hit a pie plate offhand at 100 yards four out of five? Bet you cant. From the sitting position can you hit a deer target lethally four out of five at 200 yards? Bet you cant!
My advice to any/all of us who pursue this game of hunting is to sight your rifle in very carefully and then get your butt off the chair and practice from positions you will use when hunting; prone,sitting,kneeling and standing. I would far rather hunt with someone shooting a 3 MOA rifle they could actually use than someone toting a 10 pound overscoped,hard kicking magnum they claimed shot 3/4 inch groups.

Mate you are so right in what you said in your post..i agree

We have a blind on our lease that is named "TSB" for Ten Shot Blind. One of our esteemed hunters was in it one frosty morning and rattled up a nice 8-pt. Had to watch him cross about 350 yds of open field before he got in range. Then, the hunter proceeded to use up all his ammo, hitting the deer once! He then borrowed another hunter's rifle to kill the deer which had lain down with its head up. Probably would have died from the original hit, but what the heck, ammo is cheap.

So, yep, even if you can pound 'em in there off the bench, sometimes you just can't hit game.

quote:

Can you hit a pie plate offhand at 100 yards four out of five? Bet you cant. From the sitting position can you hit a deer target lethally four out of five at 200 yards? Bet you cant!

I will take that bet, hope you got lots of money too bet

I don't barely practice offhand........as I DON'T shoot at any game animal offhand if there is a better rest available.

I've done pretty well practicing from sitting position as well as using a Harris bi pod from prone.

Had a 15 yr old last year I took out for elk. Mike could hit my 200 yard 10" steel plate 90% of the time either sitting or especially prone with the bipod. And at 100 yds he beat my plate up so badly I moved him to 200 yds.

But....When faced with the ONLY decent bull elk we had a chance at all season; Three clean misses at 170 yds in the open. I could have parked a pickup behind the elk and he would have missed it. ELK FEVER pure and simple.

I agree too......A lot of these 1/2" shooters don't seem to do so well with an audience or on paper. Many shoot at rocks,paper plates,etc and if they hit it they feel they are 1/2" shooters.

FN

7/8`s of em dont know how to put their bench rest skills together in how to hunt either

When I'm working up a load, dialing in a scope or just checking the accuracy OF THE RIFLE, I sand bag the thing in real good. After I've got everything IN, I shoot it prone, sitting and off-hand. I have found that I have to fine tune the scope settings in most cases. A shot fired of a bench is not practice, except for your tigger finger, and even that is iffy.

After a lot of practice I've put 10 for 10 into a pie plate at 100 off-hand, group size was about 6+ inches.(This with a 35 Whelen using loads I would hunt with.) Most of the time I can do 5 for 5 but some times the groups get out to literally plate size.

I've also shot a 3 shot cluster at 200 yards sitting on my butt, but most of the time it comes in about 4 inches. Prone I do much better generally holding 6 inch groups out to 400+. I have wacked marmots at over 400 sitting with my 270. For long range big game hunting I use my 270 that I've had for years, has a fair amount of gunsmithing into it and weighs in at a shade under 10 pounds. I shoot from a prone position whenever possible when hunting deer or antelope and have done well out to 400+ yards consistantly.

I practice a lot with my 270 and 35 and I shoot several bricks of 22's each spring on gophers. I use the same brand of scope and reticle style on my 22 as the big game rifles and I've found that this is very helpful. I also find I shoot much better if I don't drink any coffee or soda pop and get a good nights sleep.

You can buy a MOA rifle, but only work will make YOU a MOA shooter with it.

FN
People learn to shoot in a different manner depending on what you grow up hunting. If you grew up hunting whitetails in the brush, you'd learn to shoot game offhand and often running. I too use a rest any time it's available, but probably shot 1/2 of the deer in my lifetime offhand.

I make no apologies for demanding the most out of my rifles, as well as myself. You have no basis for your condescending attitude about the shooting skills of myself and the others on this board. Just because you can shoot, dosent mean we cant. I'll bet you can kiss my ass.

Reloader:

My dad used to say that "buck fever" was because when you looked through (or over) the sights you already saw the horns up on a wall!

Bwest: I kind of have to agree with Mousegun regarding your post! Delete the part he mentioned about you kissing ass though!
I agree you are making a broad, sweeping AND condescending statement regarding those of us who often shoot groups under 1/2 inch at 100 yards!
I do it all the time (shoot the small groups)! Albeit not very often with my Big Game Rifles. Mostly because I do not shoot them as often as my other Rifles.
I have harvested 12 head of Big Game in the last 3 years - each one being taken with a single shot!
Only one of those heads of Big Game was taken without either a bipod for support or my back-pack for use as a giant sandbag!
I make it a point to NOT have to shoot offhand at big game!
Having said that, I was still Hunting through a thicket this past November and I got pinned down by an approaching Mule Deer Buck and I had to sling up and shoot off hand at him. He was killed with one shot at 140 yards. He was one of my best Mule Deer taken to date!
I shoot thousands of shots each year at Varmints and small game under all manner of situations - but again 99% of the shots are from sand bags or bi-pods.
My Big Game Rifles are ALL 1 M.O.A. guns or better - I would not Hunt with anything less!
And I for one do not seem to have any trouble harvesting cleanly the Game animals I shoot at.
Again I think your posting is overly broad, overly condescending and overly pessimistic.
I have seen my share of Hunters who miss in the field and I believe the main reasons for the misses I have observed are shooting at running game, poor Rifle support at the shot and over and under shooting at game (poor familiarity with ranging AND the trajectory of ones Rifle here!).
Indeed poor markmanship when game is involved is a serious and troubling problem.
There are many shortcomings that can befall Hunters in regards to hitting or missing game in the field - I would not give over emphasis to small groups at the range somehow indicating exactly what a miss on game was caused by.
There is no correlation in the two - missing game and shooting small groups!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I think we all have good shots and then bad shots.. Most don't want to tell about the bad shots....

I have TONS of good shots that even IMPRESS Myself that I made them....

Then I have had shots that should have been easy and I missed them not by a little, but by a lot... that embarrassed ESPECIALLY me!

It is just the level of self honesty one wants to admit... when we lie, we are only really fooling ourselves... most every one else can see thru it.....

too many people get hung up on what every one else thinks... both positively or negatively...

We all cant' be heroes and we all can't be bums...

Most of us are somewhere in the middle and even that location is shifting daily....Regardless of the subject.. shooting ability or otherwise...
just the way I see it...

cheers
seafire

quote:

Originally posted by Peakebrook:

One of the tricks I have found helpful is to use balloons for practicing. I will take the 4-wheeler and place balloons blown up to about 6 inches in diameter around the farm. Some in fields and some in the woods. Easy way to practice different distances and shooting positions. The kids love it.

It is also a good way for most to see what their "limits" are.

My buddies and I are getting ready for a varmit hunt. We did this back home during a windy day. Great fun! It seemed every time you line up on a balloon, a gust comes up and the dang thing would move!

Another thing I like to do to get ready for deer season is take a bunch of gallon milk jugs out to the range, and shoot them in similar positions to what I use hunting. Good fun and you can see the hits.