I am always amazed of all of the stupid people in the world! I saw on the news last where a 39 year old father and his 14 year old son went deer hunting here in Ohio...Adams County I believe. For those of you who do not know, it is bow season in Ohio and crossbows are allowed. Anyway, the father mistook his son for a deer and shot him in the chest and killed him!

First of all crossbows don't have much more range than compound bows if at all. Secondly, the shot would have been fairly close due to the weapon being used. Thirdly, there is no way the father had a clear sight picture prior to firing the shot. If he did, he would have known it was his son and not a deer. Fourthly, YOU NEVER SHOOT UNLESS YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE SHOOTING AT!

An innocent child is dead because of a dumb father...period. There is nothing that can be done to bring the young man back, but the father should be prosecuted. There is no excuse for this type of stupidity. Especially at such a close range when he would have known darn well his son was in the area.

Sad, How can people get so excited while hunting
just to shoot without identifing the target first?

Happens regularly here!
I heard of a hunter who saw something bouncing around twilight and shot(during shotgun season) and killed a farmer on his tractor. Another example happend 3 or 4 years ago during gun season, a guy in a tree stand shot and killed another hunter moving through the bruch because he heard a noise and knew it was a deer! We also have blaze orange requirements during gun season.

It is beyond belief the lack of common sense some folks have!

Have a safe fall everyone!

[ 10-08-2002, 16:09: Message edited by: amosgreg ]

This is absolutely ridiculous, the perfect example of the kind of actions that give hunters a bad name!!! Rule Number one don't shoot unless you are damn sure of your target, you know your backstop and you have a clear shot. The best guys with a bow that I know have an effective range that rarely excedes 35 yards and if you can't make out that the noise that you shot at is your son (or any other human being for that matter) instead of a deer then you don't deserve to be amongst the living IMNSHO. Just my .02 gabe

Accidents will always happen no matter what - I guarantee you the father is being prosecuted. About the only solution I can think of is to have hunters take recurrent safety training every year - not only to protect us but our passion. The best we can do is to share our knowledge and wisdom and remember that "out there" you are not necessarily alone - be careful. I have seen too many hunters do so many stupid things - be sure of your target - whats behind it - and take notice of who could be looking at you.

About 16 years ago, a classmate of my younger brother was killed by his grandfather while hunting fall turkeys. Every time I hear of a person killed in mistake for game I think of that man's face at the funeral of his grandson. - Very Sad.

Accidents can happen, but 99 percent of the accidental shootings can be prevented by being sure of the target and what lies beyond it. There is NO animal worth taking ANY chance because of an unsure target.

The excitement of the hunt is a large part of the reason to hunt, but we need to remember to stay calm enough to be rational.

cwilson

Jail time would be good for the father anyhow. Unless they guy was some kind of monster there is nothing anyone could do to him that's worse than what he's done to himself, but if he is to ever return to the "normal" world he'll need some kind of pennance. I don't know why they ever got rid of hard labor. A good five to ten years of hard labor would be good for him.

Loren, Amen on the hard labor thing. I think it would do people some good in prison, it would make life there hard instead of just an inconvenience!!! gabe

Right on the mark, Loren. Very sad and very stupid.

Loren, et al:

Bullshit, I might agree with you if it was someone else, but that man will have to carry his son's dying face with him the rest of his days, and if he is half the father most of us are, he will never forget it. I don't think prison time would serve any purpose in this case and I am a hardliner. Maybe some community service, but why make it more of a catastrophe than it is?

AMEN Brother could not have said it better myself. We have no idea what this man is going through and he will carry the look on his son's face and the memory of this accident until they are shoveling dirt in his face. Yes it was an EXTREMELY stupid mistake, key word here MISTAKE and I hope that non of us ever have to learn a lesson like he has. I'm sorry but I think that we should all say a few prayers for this father.

[ 10-10-2002, 01:19: Message edited by: Handloader ]

This is another very avoidable tragedy, right up there w/ "the gun went off when I was cleaning it".
I would think you have to identify at least the type of animal you are shooting @, if not also the sex, points, etc. It baffles me every time I hear of something like this. I also don't think jail time for this idiot would avoid anyone elses future tragedys. Poor dumb bastard!

[ 10-10-2002, 04:47: Message edited by: fredj338 ]

Anyone else ever notice how uncommon "common sense" really is anymore?

I shot my buddy one time.

Surgeons said he would have been alright, had I not field dressed him before I drug him back to the truck.

Dipshits who fire at sounds in the woods are the reason that I no longer still hunt for whitetails in Michigan's Upper Penninsula. It doesn't matter how many square yards of hunter orange you're wearing, you are still not safe. I have now joined the legions of stump sitters.

What's really sad is that the non-shooting public considers them 'hunters' just like us. They're really the same morons who drag race past your kids' playground, change lanes at 70 mph without looking, drive around drunk, and hoot at your wife as they go by. Just like terrorists, there aren't THAT many of them, but there are still more than enough around.

It's hard for a conservative like me to justify additional government B.S., but sometimes I really think a minimum safety / shooting proficiency test, for those planning to go afield after game, might help. Even something like re-certifying for hunter safety every 3 - 5 years. Kind of like going to the range the first time, having the range officer point out your stupid mistakes and making you sweat a bit for them, makes certain you won't do it again. Most of the people on this site would pass easily, but the average Billy Bob who road hunts with his grandpappy's '06 and a six pack might have trouble. I do hate to point this out, but hunting is not mentioned in the Constitution; either we police ourselves, or someone else will do it for us. If 'they' do it, you probably won't be hunting anything but soda cans. We're not quite there yet, but we all know the power of our liberal media, and the [misguided] hue and cry they can raise with events like this.

Just my thoughts.

And I really agree with those who say no prison for this guy. He killed his son; he's already sentenced himself to a lifetime of remorse, night terrors, flashbacks, and bottomless depression. The first second that he saw his son was more punishment than you could heap on him for the rest of his life in prison.

Todd

[ 10-10-2002, 06:44: Message edited by: Todd Getzen ]

Gatorgordo,

I appreciate that he has to live with this terrible act he committed but if we, as hunters, don't push for strong action against dangerous hunters, we will continue to lose our hunting rights.

Yes, I am being selfish here but I try to hold myself to a higher standard and believe that the shooter, even if he is the father, has to pay a price for his stupidity beyond his obvious grief. The sentence must be made very high-profile to make other bad hunters take notice. Even if it prevents just one more moron from doing the same, it has to be done.

I just think we need to take a stand for much higher standards and responsibility.

"Bullshit", was this necessary?

Normally I'd be pretty hard-ass about this and say the guy should rot in prison -- but I'm inclined to agree that, if he's got any soul at all, he'll live with and regret this for the rest of his life. I would think, then, "justice" would best be served if the guy had to spend "X" years touring every county in his state, or something like that, giving "Hunter Safety" talks about this incident.

Unless the judge sees the guy is just a jerk -- then, throw him behind bars.

A sad situation, either way.

Russ

I must agree with Gatorgordo, There will be nothing gained by sentencing this man to jail time. How do you know the type of person that he is. I see no reason for hin to ever be allowed to hunt or own a bow or firearm again though.

I agree with Russ. Two days ago I sat in on an assembly at our high school that was presented by a young man who killed his brother in a drunk driving wreak. He got 6 years, did 4 and is giving motivational speeches about the evils of DWI. I figure they trained him in prison and this is part of his parole/penitance. It was moving, to say the least.

The guy is a fool no doubt, but every time he looks at his wife he will remember that he killed HER son as well. That would be punishment enough.

This is a very sad thing and I feel for the family and their loss.

The bad thing is this happens more then most of us know.

How many of you would have known that this happened if it wasnt for this forum?
How many of you would have know about the 53 year old man killed by a bear hunter 2 weeks ago less then 10 miles from my house?
Not many, if any.

My point is, these are being recorded, somewhere by people that I am sure we dont want to, media, anti gunners/hunters etc. These accidents will come back to haunt us, its just a matter of time.

The only thing that we can REALLY do, is be a responsible, safe and aware hunters and teach our children to be the same.

Safe hunting all,
JAG
Hood RIver, OR

I think you have to have kids to understand the true horror of this. The true lesson is to learn. If you find yourself saying 'idiot, this could never happen to me' then you, my friend, are on the road to danger.

When that muntjac shape scuttles out one hour after last light just pause a second before you loose off - exactly what is it that tells you it is what you think it is.

When we are young and inexperienced we have to mentaly tick off things like tail, spots, large, no horns = fallow doe but as we get more experienced we tend to see a humped scuttling shape think muntjac and away we go - how do you know it isn't a dog. Impressions as opposed to recognition is what gets people shot.

For those of you who are not familar with this "accidential" shooting that happened in Ohio. Here is a little bit of information that I know you don't know unless you live here. Ammosgreg said that this happens here all the time. HE IS NOT KIDDING! Almost every year one or more people are shot and killed or seriously injured. Most of the time this is with slug guns while hunting, but in this case it was a cross bow. I don't give a crap if the guy shot his son or a complete stranger. IDIOTS like this don't deserve to live in my book! I have a theory that there are people out there that are too dumb to live and so far year after year this becomes more of a law than a theory.

I'm sorry for my strong words and feelings here. I am a Christian and a father, but it is VERY hard to hold back the anger for a person acting as stupidly as this man did. Yes, he will have to live with what he did, but so does Timothy McVey, Ted Bundy and a whole slew of murders. Now, I'm not putting the father right up there with these notorious killers, but the man did commit a crime and should be punished accordingly to the laws that we are to abide by. He will get a trial by jury if prosecuted for his actions. Lets let the jury deside his fate.

JCSABOLT and amosgreg, you are right about it happening all the time here last year in Cooper Hollow area a guy was shot out of a tree stand during whitetail season, it is to the point that I almost never hunt ohio anymore, In WV where I do most of my hunting Centerfires are allowed and you don't seem to hear of the fatalities that you do in Ohio. I have always been a little skeptical of the "hunting accident" as well as the "cleaning accident" something has never set right with me about them, I do understand that accidents happen but I just have a gut feeling that a large majority of them aren't all that accidental. And on the prison thing, if these go unpunished then that is a slippery slope to inviting someone you don't think much of to go "hunting" And I am not so sure that I believe that the shame is punishment enough, I see alot of people who have no shame these days. Maybe I look at people with a jondised eye but it is just my humble opinion. gabe

Thanks jcsabolt,
As a follow-up I DON'T hunt during gun season.
I did my first couple seasons. I hunted puvlic land the one year and it sounded like a war zone from about the time there was a little light on the horizon. The season starts 1/2 before sun-up and there was shooting going on at least 1/2 before then. IT REALLY SCARED ME! I got a small buck in the next 1/2 hour so I was done and that has been the last time I have hunted during gun season. I have access to some private land this season so I might hunt during gun season there but that remains to be seen.

I want to know how much experiance the father has hunting. I will venture a guess that it is not much at all. I say this because I believe crossbow makes bow season acessable to some "hunters" (I use this loosly) who have no business being in the woods. I won't say crossbows should be outlawed, but restricted in use via bowhunter safety course and field testing. I have met crossbow hunters who believe that it is an arrow fireing gun!

Bad News!

Rant off!

For those of you that say seeing his kids face is punishment enough, what would your suggested punishment be if he had shot just another hunter? As far as I'm concerned, it's still negligent homicide and he should be put in prison. Why should who he killed have anything to do with the punishment? He knew his son was out there hunting with him. Wouldn't you be extra careful if you know your son/daughter was hunting with you?

No one has mentioned the most obvious point (in my mind) and that is the pressure to "score". In the US at least, especially on public lands, and Ohio is a prime example where hunters go practically shoulder to shoulder in small game season, there are a LOT of hunters and not much game. "Hunters" feel they have to kill something to prove their manhood. Having said that, hunters can also be their own worst eneny. I remember a situation in Maine a few years ago where a woman (a 'city" dweller) went out in her back yard wearing white mittens. She was shot and killed by a deer hunter and got NO sympathy from the locals. The prevailing wisdom was that it was her own fault that she was mistaken for a whitetail deer!
Peter.

When I was an Arizona Hunter Safety instructor,a few years ago,our motto was "HUNTER SAFETY IS NO ACCIDENT."It still applies today.

Bravo five one

I could see mistaking a raven for a crow, or accidently shooting a black tailed prarie dog when white tailed prarie dogs are allowed. I could go for mistaking a mule deer for a white tail or shooting a 4" spike when 5" is the limit.

I don't go for mistaking cows for deer, and I don't go for mistaking people for deer, it's just an excuse. You can't possibly mistake a person for a deer. You may shoot something without positive identification, and that's a crime. Yes, there may be more to this case than meets the eye, but if you can't ID your game, then don't shoot. I'm not for locking this guy up for life, but unless he's got a good story I don't see lettimg him go either. When you pick up a weapon and use it you NEED to be careful.

Ignorance or malice, the result is the same, and the true motive is locked in the heart of the perpetrator. We can have empathy for the man and his family, I do, but I still think a jury trial is warranted and I don't think jail time is entirely out of line unless there was some kind of mitigating circumstance (i.e. he really did aim at a real deer and just missed etc).

Several years ago we had a fellow shoot another fellow because he "mistook him for a turkey". The shot charge was centered in the man's chest, right in the middle of his blaze orange vest. Of course it is possible the shooter might not have recognized him, they just got out of the truck 5-10 minutes earlier.

I also know of one incident where a hunter completely clothed in blaze orange was shot as he crawled under a fence. The reason? His white sock looked like a deer's white tail!

Frankly, I believe that 99% of these incidents (not including gun mishandling) are deliberate and murder. I do not, can not believe based on my experience that anyone is having stress induced hallucinations which make them believe that a man is a turkey, deer, etc.

Sorry this was not an accident-it was murder!!!Or at least manslaughter!!! No two ways about it. Time to take responsibility for his actions- If the words I thought it was a deer came out of his mouth-Murder!!! Thinking is not knowing!! You don't pull the trigger without Knowing for sure your going to shoot Period!!!

An accident is when your sear suddenly breaks and you discharge a round into the dirt.

Negligent homicide is when your sear suddenly breaks and you kill your brother, because your muzzle was pointed at his head.

Recurrent hunter safety courses will not help most people. I see hunters that go to pieces at the sight of a deer.
That is what fuels these kinds of accidental shootings.
A few years ago during the deer season I was talking to another hunter in the woods as our paths crossed. He was an older gent and should have his emotions under control, but when a small doe ran by, he stopped talking, got a weird look on his face and actually started trotting after the deer!!
If another hunter would have stepped from behind a tree at this time this wacko just might have shot at him.
When someone gets this excited, all the schooling in the world won't help.
Hay-soose, it's only a deer...If anyone spends a week in the woods, it would be almost impossible to NOT get one.

This reminds me of something that I read JD Jones say once about hunters who get so excited they loose their minds at the sight of game. He said that they should hunt game reserves until they get over it, more game seen and not neccessarily shot would calm them down a bit, and that they should NOT hunt wild game until they learned to do so! Wear your orange folks, you are so much safer with it on.

We're in a blood thirsty mood about this poor idiot. IMHO putting him in jail just wastes the tax dollar and compounds the tragedy. We can't do anything to him that will top what he's done to himself already, unless he is just a total ass. So jail time is pissing in the wind.

Has anyone thought he has a wife and possibly other kids to support. How is tossing his dumb ass in jail going to serve them...or anyone for that matter?

Certainly it is an maddening tragedy but compounding the hurt doesn't help anyone.

Frankly, the guy will quite likely kill himself rather than live with this. I don't think I could handle such a thing and live.

Let's stop growling and shaking our fists at this tragedy and THINK about the people who are hurt and left after this.

All we KNOW about this story is what the news has reported and how many times do they dick up the truth beyond recognition.

It's a sad, sad deal all around.

Jcsabolt2, keep us posted, if you can, as to what happpens to this guy. This is like the story , a few years ago, that made the TV, where a man shot and killed his daughter. She was playing a joke on him by hiding in a closet. She was not scheduled to be home. He heard a noise, he got his gun, she jumped out of the closet and he shot her right in the chest killing her.
All of this is very disturbing to say the least. I don't think it will ever stop. Like another poster said about loosing it when they see game, that is the way my brother is. To me it is like they get tunnel vision, they loose sight of everything around them, very bad. That is why I NEVER take him hunting anymore. He luckly ran out of ammo before his barrel crossed our line of sight. And this was only a phesant. He fired 5 rounds at that phasent. Lucky for us he did not have more capacity. My friends still talk about him.