I cannot find reason in some, many, hunters worrying, often leading them to condem fine hunting bullets because they damage too much meat. If you are trophy hunting and use a bullet that will destroy a shoulder, or both, and if it means that you kill the animal as quickly as possible, is that a waste? I'm always happy to see an animal dropped instantly and for good. If that means losing some meat, so be it. Much better than losing the entire animal. When I go out for meat, personally I like to take a sometimes small, accurate rifle, and head shoot my game. I am wrong, is this unrealistic?
Posts: 2286 | Location: Aussie in Italy | Registered: 20 March 2002
I have shot moose through the shoulders with my .338WM, and there was not a great amount of damage, except for a narrow wound channel all the way across. The wound was perhaps 1" in diameter, but there were traces of hair, bone, and hide inside. All I had to do was widen the wound channel with a fillet knife to remove the trash left behind by the bullet. More meat around the wound is lost later, when the legs are hanging, because the perimeter of the wound dries fast.
There was some jelled meat on the far side of the shoulder, so I had to remove it. Most of the problem I had was trying to roll the moose during the skinning process. But since moose are so large, the meat lost was not that great. I still prefer a heart or a lung shot on moose, and so far the ones I have shot in such a way have fallen very fast.
Posts: 2448 | Location: Alaska | Registered: 25 May 2002
I disagree. I'm not a trophy hunter, I'm a meat hunter. Much rather have it run 100 yards than ruin one or two shoulder roast. What's 100 yards? JMO, Dutch.
[This message has been edited by Dutch (edited 04-11-2002).]
Posts: 4564 | Location: Idaho Falls, ID, USA | Registered: 21 September 2000
Not every one is a trophy hunter! In the UK regardless of the trophy aspect, many carcasses are sold to the Gamedealer and they soon let you know if your shot placement was wrong or if you're super-megadeath magnum which shoots Balistic Tips at near warp speed is causing too much damage.
At the end of the day, losing 5lb of meat off an elk is no big deal, but off a 30lb roe carcass it is...
[This message has been edited by Pete E (edited 04-11-2002).]
Posts: 5684 | Location: North Wales UK | Registered: 22 May 2002
Dutch, where I hunt it is very steep and extremely brushy. It is frequently raining hard when I hunt. A deer or even an elk shot mortally that can run another 100 yds is potentially a lost animal. Panic sets in when the animal is still going. An animal dropped 250 or 300 yds away often takes 30 or more minutes to get to. Because of the risk, we are apt to take the shoulder shot or neck shot, and pass on shots altogether more often than you would guess. Lung shot deer here can be lost fairly easily because the deer take off down 60% or better slopes headlong, can roll off vertical bluffs, etc. If its raining Oregon hard, the blood washes away pretty quickly. What is a good procedure for you is not so for me, as losing a deer altogether is a total waste. For years I hunted with a 7 Rem mag with 160 gr Partitions. Like Ray said, you clean out the wound channel with a fillet knife. I rarely lost more than a pound of meat. Now I hunt with a .54 cal muzzleloader which causes even less meat loss. I think we ought to lighten up on deciding what is right for the other guy. Thats the kind of "thinking" that has gotten us into this gun control crap! ----Regards, Chuck---- By the way, If you butcher your own, the waste goes down dramatically, as long as you are not wasteful or lazy. Its not hard to do---
Chuck, as far as steep is concerned, you've got nothing on me. I hunt the Central Idaho mountains, and I've never seen anything as miserable. Including the Seven Devils range, the stuff outside of Joseph, and the Cascade stuff I poked around in while at the UO. Personally, I find that an elk in the steep stuff is easy to track, compared to flat ground. They make huge gouges trying to get away or jumping deadfall.
In the end though, I'm willing to do just about anything for elk meat. If I weren't, I'd buy it on a styrofoam tray and shrink-wrapped from the grocery store. JMO, Dutch.
Posts: 4564 | Location: Idaho Falls, ID, USA | Registered: 21 September 2000
For the avid meat hunter; Why use body shots at all? If you are strictly a meat hunter head shots should be the rule. Besides, an animal that runs 100yrds before falling will be full of adrenaline, and this can taint the meat. Furthermore a quartering shot can rip the guts and disperse bile, shit, urine and stomach contents which can and usually do ruin meat. In any case, you invariably will lose some meat even if you use adequately light loads.
Posts: 2286 | Location: Aussie in Italy | Registered: 20 March 2002
Express, on a good double lung shot, you really don't ruin ANY meat. I don't think I threw away 10 oz total on my last three big game animals. Not when you use a proper bullet, anyway. Lung shots give us a big target area, very forgiving about shot placement, and a natural aiming point.
Personally, I find headshots on something like elk (which never seem to hold their head still, anyway) or deer kind of a Hail Mary shot, in itself. Minute target area, and not very forgiving. JMO, Dutch.
Posts: 4564 | Location: Idaho Falls, ID, USA | Registered: 21 September 2000
I hate waste and I am of the school that one can shoot a deer or elk through the shoulders and not tear it all to hell...
I use a heavey tough bullet that leaves a good blood trail if they run a ways..A 338 250 or 300 gr. kills well and isn't all destructive.. The 9.3 x62 is another example.
It is velocity that blood shoots one whole side of a deer or elk...
I like the 220 gr. nosler in my 300 H&H, the 200 nosler in my 06, and you can eat to the bullet hole, yet it kills very well indeed..I also noticed the GS HV bullets killed very well and did not blood shoot a lot of meat.
I will take the head or neck shot if I am in a position to follow it up if I miss the vertabre or juglar, otherwise I take a close behind the shoulder shot.
This is mostly applicable to elk, as there is so little meat on a deer shoulders I doubt that it is that critical, but I hate to butcher and clean a mess, so I'm carefull about such things....
But thats all neither here nor there with me on deer as I mostly just use my 25/35 or my grandads old 30-30. It adds a deminsion.
Dutch, I have heard about some steep country where you are. I hunt in the North Umpqua Drainage, where the average buck has one leg half as long as the other--Of course they can only go one direction without rolling down the hill! I can only surmise that this is why the brush is so thick. It was the only way our maker could figure to slow down the "tumblers" so they can get turned around.Here when an elk is hit and keeps going (or rolling) it just looks like one of many mudslides. Actually, I have had to tie deer to a tree to gut them. And NO, Iv'e never forgotten to untie a buck from a tree and couldn't figure out why it would not move despite my best efforts--that was not me! Later, CHUCK
Hell, in Idaho I have had to tie my elk to a tree to gut him and I had to tie myself to the elk to gut him...I have shot elk in the Mosquito Springs drainage or comming off long Tom, where I had to straddle a tree to shoot or wrap one leg around a sapling...Elk seem to like that area when the shooting starts, wonder why?
quote:Originally posted by EXPRESS: I cannot find reason in some, many, hunters worrying, often leading them to condem fine hunting bullets because they damage too much meat. If you are trophy hunting and use a bullet that will destroy a shoulder, or both, and if it means that you kill the animal as quickly as possible, is that a waste? I'm always happy to see an animal dropped instantly and for good. If that means losing some meat, so be it. Much better than losing the entire animal. When I go out for meat, personally I like to take a sometimes small, accurate rifle, and head shoot my game. I am wrong, is this unrealistic?
I recently took part in a very similar discussion and would like to sum up my thoughts about that topic : Generally , what counts most for me is a quick kill . I made some neck shots when hunting trophies to ease my stalker�s mind , as he was very nervous and urged me to shoot and the chest was covered by bushes . The deer dropped instantly , I got nice trophies without problems , but the deer paid the bill , as they were still alive and unable to move and the PH killed them with a knife - no nice way to die IMHO. Regarding the meat , these shots did not cause any damage to valuable parts of the body . However , with this kind of shots - head shots as well , one is more likely to hit the jaws by accident and the deer will run away and finally starve . So I personally prefer the chest shot , 2-3 centimeters behind the shoulder . Hitting the lungs or the heart , it is a reliable shot and does not cause much damage , unless - as happened to me , the bullet hits a rib , divides in several splinters and penetrates the stomach etc . Most of the deer I shot died within 100 yards distance or dropped on the spot . As we sell the carcasses to game dealers or private persons in Germany , we try not to spoil the meat . If a bad shot happens , however , I�m more concerned about the deer�s quick death , even if I need a second shot , than about the meat loss . As for trophy hunt : I rather use a bullet or a shot placement that stops and kills the animal instantly than paying attention to the meat . I recently had a quarrel with a PH because he told me half a year after my hunt , that some the carcasses were smashed ( the deer , however , were instantly stonedead ). I am convinced , that if I am able to afford the trophy fees , I am also able to refund the " smashed carcass " without any discussion , if one only tells me honestly that it happened . From a PH�s side , one cannot claim everything at a time : a client who only makes " dream shots " is the exception and most times , so my experience , the guides urge a client to shoot at first chance , no matter if the client feels happy about that , because the PH�s are under pressure to provide success . If one does not shoot , one is considered clumsy , if one shoots and spoils carcass , one is blamed for that . I think , the instant kill has priority .
If you wanna see meat damage, shoot a whitetail in the shoulder with a .223.....even the good little 64 grain power-point will make an absolute mess; bruising everywhere.
. Dutch.
