Most of the time when I clean deer the heart is hard and tough to the touch.

Occasionaly it is like jelly, completely flacid. This is allmost allways when it itself is untouched.

Anyone knows what the natural state is and what causes it to change?

1894: Your roe's with the flaccid heart muscles are obviously eating a high-fat, high colesterol diet containing too much meat and not enough fiber.

A lot of the time when I field dress a deer the heart is blown to shit. All bloody and in small pieces.

1894

I guess that most often your deer die with the heart in systole - the contracted state. It may also be that the heart goes into a continuous unco-ordinated contraction called fibrillation which provides no effective pumping function. Lack of oxygen to the heart muscle can do this and this will happen rapidly if you've smashed the lungs or major blood vessels. Fibrillation is usually what people die of in a heart attack. The flaccid hearts will have been in diastole - the relaxed state in which the heart is filling with blood ready for the next beat. This is more unusual I think as many things may trigger contraction.

Nick S

Same thing happens with the penis in animals and humans...Just thought I'd drop that one on you, it's a fact you know.

Ray, I assume your saying the penis shrinks and stays limp? As far as I know, it always takes alot of blood to do the opposite and if an animal is leaking blood......

Many thanks all for the humour and Nick-S for the answer.

1894,

Have you seen the pamphlet David Stretton has produced on carcass handling/preparation aimed at getting stalkers through their DMQ Level 2???

In the section on post mortems's, he comments something along the lines of that if the beast is taken unawares, the heart will be soft and palpable when examined, however if the animal was aware of the stalker and "tense" and about to flee, the heart will be hard. He attributes this to the huge release of adrenaline as the deer goes into the "flight" mode...

Regards,

Pete

In the cattle slaugthering industry they have a problem with what they call "dark-cutters" in cattle. It seems that if a steer is harrassed alot by handlers to get him to go into the "killing floor" and shows alot of fear, it will most often result in that steer's meat being darker than normal when he is cut up. Dark meat does not sell well at the market; bright colored meat is what the markets prefer and they pay a premium for it over the dark-cutters. So, the slaugther plants have gone to alot of trouble to keep the animals at ease until they are killed. Might this also be a large discharge of adrenaline in these dark-cutting steers that causes the darker meat?

The brightness is determined by the oxygen level in the blood. Oxygenated blood is bright red, while blood which is depleted of oxygen is a darker color.

Pete

Regarding Davis Stretton's pamphlet: Adrenaline will increase the force (and rate of course) of the heartbeat. It also increases the tendency for the heart to produce arrhythmias and so to go into fibrillation. So I think this all fits with 1894's observations.

Nick S

Nick,

Although the pamphlet talks of the situation occurring when the deer is aware of the stalker and is about to flee, could a similar surge of adrenaline be produced as a response to the shot itself in certain circumstances?

I am thinking small differences in shot placement and bullet performance could have an effect here, but one which was difficult to quantify.

A couple of years ago during a Government sponsored report on the effects of Hunting with Hounds, blood samples were taken from deer which had died in various ways for compassion.

The report found that deer killed after being hunted by hounds had different blood/muscle chemistry than a stress free deer cleanly shot by a stalker. The alteration in blood/muscle chemistry was concluded to be as a result of the deer suffering extreme stress/ duress from this form of hunting and that the deer therefore suffered "fear" and hence concluded this method was "cruel".

The results were later disputed for number of reasons but primarily because it was demonstrated that a similar change in blood/muscle chemistry occured in race horses after a race and that it was found to be in no way detremental and that the simple act of running could not be considered cruel.

I have never hunted deer with hounds or coursed them with sight hounds, but is there any difference in the quality of the venison produced as a result of this chemical change in the blood stream and muscles, as opposed to one which was taken unawaress by a stalker?

Regards

Pete

Pete

That’s an interesting question. Virtually all exercise induces some temporary damage to skeletal muscle – biochemical changes including some loss of muscle proteins from muscle cells. This is well documented in humans as well as racehorses and the Bateson report. As you might expect, the size of the effect goes with the severity and duration of exercise. So my guess would be that venison from a deer that had run hard for several miles might well be different from one that fell quickly to a bullet. I don’t know of any reports about this, though, and my experience of venison is only from deer I or friends have shot.

The other issue is whether you might get an adrenaline surge in response to a shot. I’m sure you can, but whether it reaches other organs to have an effect will depend on how long an effective blood circulation exists, which in turn will depend on shot placement. Something else that occurs to me is this. You probably wouldn’t get a biochemical exercise effect on venison from a shortish run before a deer drops, but you could get a big dilation of blood vessels in skeletal muscle. Exercise can increase muscle blood flow many fold for obvious reasons. So there might be substantially more blood in venison from a deer that has run than from one that just dropped. I know David Stretton so I’ll ask him whether he’s ever noticed anything like that next time I see him. (He doesn’t like computers.)

Nick

Nick,

Duahhhhhhhhhhhhh..did not notice you were from the UK...I was of course refering to the Bateson Report as you guessed...

I have not got anything against hunting with hounds and was in fact in London for the last match, but I have always wondered about the quality of venison produced from this method...seems to go against everything you are taughtas a stalker with regards producing top quality venison...

From what I read David has very high standards with regards his carcass preparation; I seem to recall he will not put the carcass from a rutting fallow buck into the food chain for instance... its a pity more people were not this way then perhaps venison would not have reputation for such variable quality with joe public...

regards,

Pete

[ 11-14-2002, 04:12: Message edited by: Pete E ]

I don't know about the hearts, but as far as skeletal muscles, there are HUGE differences in the meat of animals taken while calm and those taken after running/chased by hounds!!!!

I have killed deer, hogs and rabbits both ways. It has to do with adrenaline release from fear and lactic acid buildup in the muscle tissue during exercise.

I don't hunt with hounds any more.

[ 11-15-2002, 00:37: Message edited by: wingnut ]

Some animals are hard hearted like me, others are old softies like Atkinson.

Good one Crowrifle