In reading many posts, magazine articles, observing many hunters at ranges and in the field, and wading through manufactuers hipe pushing whatever the current "trend" is (like the WSM & RUM), I realized that many hunters do not have a clue what makes a good viable "all around rifle" for hunting all North American (non-dangerous)Big Game like deer, elk, moose, pronghorn, sheep, caribou, bears (Black & Grizzly)

Zillions of words have been written on the subject, and very few have really made sense to the "average Joe".

So perhaps we can all have a adult conversation as to what is and what is not an "all around rifle".

Since its my post (for now), I will take my stab at this subject. You of course my not agree (and that's what makes a good discussion) so please feel free to point out my errors, and perhaps we can all learn something of value.

My parameters are fairly simple, an all around rifle must be portable (without resort to gunbearer or wheels) weighing no less than 6.5 lbs (with scope and cartriges) and no more than 9.5 lbs. The reasoning? Simple, under 6.5 lbs loaded and ready to go, unnecesssary compromises have to be made in order to get a finshed rifle that light, and very light rifles are harder to shoot off hand. Over 9.5 lbs, we are again at an extreme, that makes a rifle unhandy to carry all day in a variety of conditions.

Barrel length? no less than 22" and no more than 26" on Bolt actions. Extremes again do not work as well.

Actions? Well, it really does not matter whether its a push feed or CRF, as long as it reliable and safe. Reliable it must feed every time in any and all conditions with its chosen load. Safe to fire, and handle in the field, range, in close quarters, slung, so some sort of a three position safety is a must. If you must ask why, consider the way a three position safety functions, and then get back to me.

Ranges? 300 yds or less. Longer than 300 yd shots require equiment, practice, and experience that very few will ever aquire. Can it be done? Of course. But long range rifles I contend are outside the scope of "all around" and fit properly under the category of "specilized". Why an arbitary 300 yds? Well like Mason said to Dixon "We've got to drawn the damn line someplace"!

Calibers? Here is the biggest and most contentious subject of all. My criteria is an rifle that will propell a bullet of .250 Sectional Density or more, at no less than 2400 FPS to no more than about 2800 FPS (line drawing again). In a caliber not less than .284 (7mm).

(This criteria allows cartridges from the 7mm-08 to 375 H&H. Have a magnum. Sure ok. Load your 7mm mag with 175 grain bullets of your choice, your 300 mag with 200's or 220's , etc. They all work, and fit the criteria. You do not need to load down a magnum, just use a heavier bullet)

Why? Good question. Less than 2400 FPS will require more than a 12" drop @ 300 yds. Which by the way is the smallest kill zone on the above named critters.

More than 2800 FPS is another arbitary line. Above 2800 FPS we stress most bullets (at close range) that it mandates premium bullets, while below that velocity most bullets, even non-premiums will work quite well in most cases.

Scopes? If it fits the rifle, doesn't fog, holds zero, has a 42 MM or smaller objective, and weighs less than 1 1/4 lbs (16 ozs), has a magnifcation not greater than 10X, I think any scope will work.

Ditto on the mounts. If it fits, holds zero, and you can change scopes in the field, and fire less than 5 or so new sighting in shots, with your second scope. (yes, you must have a second scope for your all rounder) It will work.

The final criteria is "one gun, one load". The "all around rifle" is used for all the above game, at ranges near (off the muzzle) and far (300 yds), with one load.

You want to shoot deer only, buy a deer rifle. Elk only, buy and elk rifle. Your "all arounder" is tuned to one load, you the hunter know its limitations, and have one set of range tables to learn.


What say you,

Bob

My "all rounder"? Ruger MK II Express, 300 Winchester Magnum, Tuned trigger, Ruger "Low" Rings, Scope 1 = Leupold 3x9 Compact Matte, Scope 2 = 2x7 Leupold. "The Load" Federal Gold Medal brass, Nosler 220 Grain Partition, Federal 215 Primers, 76 grains H-1000, Velocity 2751 FPS average.

Hello Shadow,

Can't argue with any of your points, but would add that I think it should be "all weather", in case your hunting Bear/Moose in AK and it has been raining for nine days straight....

My all-arounder is KM77RBZ 30-06 w/Shepherd 3-9 shooting 180 grainers.

Bill

Interesting post and for the most part I agree with you and your choices, though I like a bit more velocity than you stated. 2800-3100 fps seems more like my range, mainly because I like a slightly flatter trajectory (i.e. 6" point blank range out to 300 yards). Since you include grizzlies in the list (and though I never hunted them), I'd probably want at least a .30 cal. Remove the big bears and I'd include 7mm/.270 as well.

Another thing most people don't consider is recoil because most guys seem to think magnums are the answer to this question. The truth is, even if magnum recoil doesn't bother you, it can definitely come back to bite you (literally), when you are shooting in field positions such as prone or shooting up/down hill where you may have to lean over the gun a bit more than sitting or at the bench. A .300 Win mag helped me learn this lesson Something to consider because for a one rifle do-it-all approach, I'd bet way more shots are going down range practicing or at deer/antelope sized game than the big boys.

-Lou

I can pretty much get my "all around" rifle to fit your criteria. It weighs 9 pounds loaded and is built around a much tuned M70 crf action. It wears a Leupold 3.5-10 scope, 26" Krieger barrel and is glass stocked. The spare scope is a match to the other. The rifle is chambered for 300Wby magnum and my "one load for the world" is a 200gr Nosler partition @ 3000fps. That level of velocity has worked well for me in 30yrs of big game hunting in Africa and N.A., regardless of the caliber or bullet weight being used. It also seems to put the killing power into another threshhold, as compared to the same bullet at 2600-2700fps. I use premium bullets, their cost is more than justified when compared to the cost of an out of state license and trip expenses in general. They also assure me of proper bullet performance on the game, which is very important if/when that once in a lifetime trophy suddenly appears!

[ 08-14-2002, 02:01: Message edited by: John S ]

Sounds like a bolt action 30-06 to me with 180 gr anythings and a 4X scope - every thing else out there is either a cut above or below. I don't own a 30-06 just because of that reason - I like to expand the envelope and always try something new. One of my sons hunts with only a 30-06 because he is not a gun nut - but a hunting fool he is.

Ditto Rifleman1. I've mentioned my optimal rifle several times on other all round rifle posts: a Mauser-type (Brno ZG-47) 30-06 with 6x scope.

I think I already have it. My Model 70 Classic Super Grade in 30-06 throwing a 180 Nosler Partition. The scope is a 3.5x10 Vari III. It will kill anything in North America including the big bears.

Great thread!

I like your criteria. It is obvious that you are a seasoned rifleman and hunter, and know what you're talking about.

My "go to" rifle is a Remington 700 ADL, class of 1972, chambered in (what else?) the 30-06. I weatherproof her with good old Johnson's paste wax, and have never had a problem with rust or corrosion.

I have a Leupold Vari X II 3 to 9 power scope mounted in a Leupold one piece base/ring set-up. I used medium height rings which allowed me to leave the factory iron sights in place. In the unlikely event that the Leupold would fail, all I need is my Swiss Army flat screwdriver to remove the scope and access the iron sights.

I use Sierra's 165 grain Gameking with 57.5 grains of H4350, and have found it a most accurate recipe. My rifle has been glass bedded and free floated, and the factory trigger now lets go at 3 pounds.

MOA hits out to 400 yards are routine when shooting prone if I can keep from canting the scope. The rifle is more accurate than some heavy barrled rifles I've owned.

I zero for 250 yards. The lower point of the 12 o'clock duplex is my 100 yard zero and the very tip of the 6 o'clock duplex is my 400 yard hold. A groundhog that finds himself sitting in that precarious position atop that 6 o'clock post is normally not long for this world.

She's my baby!

Dan Newberry
green 788

Savage 10GXP3 comes with Simmons 3-9x40 in 300 WSM

I've settled on the .308 Steyr Scout as my North American general purpose rifle, loaded with 180-grain Nosler Partitions at 2500 fps, zeroed at 200 yards. It fits all of your criteria except for barrel length, I think.

Interesting reply's all.

Not a rebutal, but rather for clarifcation, I offer the following:

Bill M. certainly "all-weather" is important, and for Alaska almost mandatory, however, stocks whether wood, laminate, or glass, is a personal choice, and any of those can be made to withstand the elements, so I declined to address that issue.

Lou270, again excellent points, and 2800 FPS is not hard point. If you have experience, and know what your getting (and losing) with a higher velocity, go for it. I'm just making my point that if 300 yd shots are a resonable limit, that have a rifle that can make 400 yd shots are not necessary for the average hunter. Today, if you do not show up with a 30-378, you are some kind of woose, and most of us should realize that our limits in all reality are somewhat lower. But if it works it works.

As far as recoil, my experience has show that 10% will flinch with anything that goes bang, 10% will not flinch even up to the .577 Nito level, and the rest of use can learn to use magnums, with enough practice. Magums are not the answer to every question, but in the right hands they can be very good indeed.

John S I would never have the temerity to assert that someone of your experience should not use a 300 Weatherby. It is a fine cartridge, and with a 200 Nosler @ 3000 FPS it is certainly an "all arounder". Rather my point was that newer shooters or those of less experience should consider lower starting point than the 300 WBY for example. Too many shooters today think their first rifle should be a 300 Wby or something of that class, and many should not be considering anything that potent. Handling a 300 WBY well in the field is a goal that should be achived, not one that can be just bought.

Thanks,

Bob

I guess my do everything is my 1917 Enfield, 308 Norma caliber, 24" Hart barrel, 3.5-10x40 Vari-x III Leupold with Weaver rings and bases, & Fajen thumbhole stock.

Is it ideal, probably not, but it's good for me. For a do-everything I'd probably want a stainless action and a synthetic stock.

As for load, 74g of H4831SC behind a Sierra 165g HPBT GK, Fed 215 primer yields about 3050fps and I'm happy.

Reed

Chambering: 30-06

Action: Winchester M70 (stainless).

Barrel: Custom (3-groove PacNor), duplicating the Win 70 featherweight contour (22") with a 1-10" twist.

Rings/Bases: El-Cheapo stainless Weaver's...
they're light (bases and rings 3.2 oz's), very strong and QD.

Scope: Leupold Vari XIII 1.75x6 (matte) (Back-up 4x Leupold zeroed in same rings).

Stock: High-Tech (fiberglass) finished with Zolatone color of choice.

Sling: Uncle Mike's "Mountain Sling" (3.2 oz's)

Loading: 180 Partirion, TBBC, X, Failsafe, Swift at 2,750 (+).

Everything to be true, square and
must feed cartridges like greasy sauages (I like that phrase!). All-up weight ready to go with 5 rounds down: 7lb. 14 oz's (or a little less).

Hey, I think I'll build this rifle!

Brad

I mainly agree with the above posts but since there are only about 500 grizz taken per year so including them is redundant. My min for this type of rifle would be that said caliber be able to propel a 175 gr bullet or more at at least 2700 f/s. This eliminates the 270/7-08 ect. Therefore we can use most big game rifes on all hunts we can dream of as long as we are up to it.

BR

Bob-
I'd certainly agree that any hunter/shooter start out with something a bit less obnoxious than a 300 magnum of any brand! A young hunter, or one that isn't much of a "shooter" will typically be better served by something like a 7mm mag or 30/06. Once some experience is gained he/she can always graduate up to the 300s if they prefer to stay with the one rifle concept.
These days that concept doesn't seem to be nearly as popular as it was years ago. In this age of more affluence and easy access to far off lands, the one rifle scenario isn't necessarily the best thing. For instance, a hunter owning a 270 for his deer/antelope/sheep hunting and then a 338 or 375 for his bear and moose hunting is way better off, IMO. If he decides to venture off to Africa and hunt some of it's game the 300 or 30/06 pairs up well with his 375 for a safari. So, in the end one really needs 3 rifles to be "all around" armed! or maybe that should be 4?

It looks good. The only disagreement I would have is the caliber lower restriction and only because I know my 264 Win Mag will do anything the 30-06 will do. It has all of the other qualifications including sectional density. It is just personal experience. (And of course just my opinion)

John S,

I guess my posts sounded like one rifle for everything. That was not my intention.

I have a deer rifle (custom 358 winchester, Sako Action, Shelen barrel, Brown Precision Kevlar stock, 3 position safety, shoots 200 grain Barnes X's @ 2615 FPS)

I have a DGR (dangerous game rifle) a Ruger 77 MKII RSM 375 H&H

I have a light varminter ( Rem Model 7 .223 Leupold XFR 3x9 Compact AO)

I have a small game rifle (Savage/Anshultz 54 .22 LR, with a B&L Trophy B 2.5X8 Scope thats as old as the Rifle)

And I have a my short range timber guns, Ruger No1 45-70, and a Marlin 94 in 45 colt, Browning Model 71 .348 Winchester.

Looking in the safe just now, I also see a 458 Whitworth, a Weatherby 375 H&H, with no place to go.

Plus I'm building a 9.3x62 on an old .270 FN Deluxe Rifle as donor, well, just because I want one.

But that said every dedicated hunter needs an "all arounder", as a light rifle for Africa, or back-up gun for that dedicated elk or deer rifle, or hell, just because....

But they all share one thing in common, one rifle , one load. (except DGR's which get a solid and soft each, but that's another story and another thread)

Thanks,

Bob

[ 08-14-2002, 03:49: Message edited by: Shadow ]

Bob,
I fully agree! No one can have too many rifles and having a certain rifle for specific types of hunting just makes it more interesting!
But, after many years of use on a great many species, my old 300mag does most things too darned well to really need a lot of the niche rifles. If it weren't for being a totally insane gun nut I would own just the 300 and a 416 for all of my serious hunting. Small game and varmints excluded.

Like alot of the others, my 1 rifle would be a 30-06. Mine is a Pre '64 Model 70 Winchester with the origional 24" barrel and a 3X12X44 Redfield scope. I know I don't need 12 power for a 30-06 but the price was good. My load is a 180gr Nosler Partition moving at 2800fps. That'll do anything I need it to do, up to and including big bears. It wouldn't be my first choice for them, but it would do it.

Shadow,

In the first posting on this thread you list (non dangerous game) in the criteria, then in virtually the same sentance you include Grizzly Bears. Do you not consider them dangerous game?

Otherwise I agree with most of your assesment but why the limit on velocity? And if Grizz are indeed in the mix I would consider anything under .308 cal woefully inadequate and 30 cal borderline at best.

Those .300 Mags are not the standard. They are way too heavy and powerful for most hunting that I see. And most of it is done East of the river where a lighter rifle is really common sense.

The recoil of a .300 Mag is way to hard. Right now I can shoot one as I am shooting one every time I go to the range but for the average person a cartridge with far less recoil will get the job done.

Don-
For hunting east of the big river(Mississippi) a 30/06 or 270 will do nicely. But that isn't all around hunting! There are no grizzly bears, caribou, antelope, sheep or wild elk in those parts. Now I know some game depts. have transplanted elk in a few areas but for this discussion let's leave them out.
If you do much hunting out west or in overseas venues I believe the 300mag makes a lot more sense than a 30/06. The recoil is more but not that much! In the past week I've been shooting my 270, 30/06 and 300Wby. I cannot tell enough difference in the two 30cals to get excited over. Just my opinion.

I don't think that you can come up with a rifle that will shoot within a six inch circle out to 300 yds within the weight limits you've set of 9.5 pounds. A quick review of my ballistic program reveals that only magnums in 7mm or .308 will shoot flat enough to meet the criteria using 175 and 180 grain bullets. (Obviously, the 338 and 375 Magnums would also do this.) I don't believe a magnum with 24" or 26" barrel is feasible under 10 pounds with scope and rings and 10.5 pounds may be more realistic. In the heavier magnums, you would not want them lighter.

A 30-06 will not shoot flat enough. It will hold 6" to only 275 yards with a 180gr bullet. A .270 will hold the curve with 130 gr bullets, but they are a little light for game larger than deer.

I believe that any 7mm Magnum or .308 Magnum would be a good start at an all round gun at 300 yds. I believe that if you limit your shots to 275 yds, the 30-06, 9.3x62, 270 (150gr), and a host of other cartridges in this catagory would be satisfactory.

If you know where your 30-06 based cartridge shoots at 300 yds, it will generally have the beans to get the job done.

If its dangerous game, I'd go with the cartridges and rifles that can throw serious weight out there, starting with the 338's and going up to the .375's. This criteria is why I like the 9.3x62 so much. With 250 gr bullets it will hold the curve to 250 yds and with 286grs bullets it will hold it to 225 yds. Ku-dude

Ku-Dude-
My 300Wby hits 9 pounds loaded and ready, my much used M70 300Win mag a bit less. Both of these rifles are quite capable at 300+yds and are not a problem to pack around or shoot when it's time to do so. My 375 only weighs 9.25lbs and it has taken many head of African game at 250+yds, and like the 300s is no problem to carry or shoot.
Your weight numbers seem a bit on the ehavy side, do you have a problem with recoil?

If we're excluding the Grizz I like a 7-08 with a 24" bbl and a good 160 grn bullet at 2700 fs or better. It can easily meet the weight criteria and still packs enough punch and accuracy @ 300 yds. That is also near to the minimum acceptable gun IMHO which is also why I think it would be a good choice for an all arounder.

When push comes to shove though its still tough to beat the "jack of all trades" for an all around gun. Its not that far behind the 300 Mags from a performance standpoint which is why the recoil isnt that much different either.

Ku-dude,

I don't remember writing " within a 6" circle @ 300 yds". What I wrote and meant was 12" of drop @ 300 yds. Any of the cartridges mentioned when sighted 3" high @ 100 yds will not drop more than 12" @ 300, and that's the worst of them.

The smallest big game mentioned, pronghorn has an average vital area of 10", and depth of hairline to hairlne (top to bottom of chest) of 15"-16". Perhaps a new computer program is in order?

Really, a 3" high sighting at 100 yds with any cartridge that uses a spitzer, and acheives at least 2400 FPS at the muzzle, will work without holding over on 99% of NA big game animals @ 300 yds. It may be old fashioned not to use PBR, but if it worked 30 years ago, BPC (before personnal computers)it also works today.

Try it.

Wstrn Hunter,

I should not have included griz, and yes they are dangerous. My thinking was more in line with mountain griz, like those that inhabit the interior. They rarely today weight more than 800 lbs., and though I agree, like you, that I would would like more caliber than 30, I hardly think a 160 grain Nosler, from say a 7x57 @ 2650, for example, will hardly bounce off.

Ideal no, but I think we had access to exact records of all North American Griz. killed since the invention of firearms, I dearsay that more have been killed with rifles of less power than a 308 Win than with something more powerful.

In any event you are correct and I should have left Griz. out.

Thanks for the correction,

Bob

I would agree with all of your ideas, except that to me at least, an "all around" rifle depends on where or what kind of game you hunt. A squirrel hunter may be happy with an air rifle, or maybe a .22 LR. All "around" cartridges are usually the most common ones where you hunt. For example, In Alaska the most popular cartridges are the .30-06, the .300WM, and the .338WM. I don't really know which one of these three is the most popular, but my "all around" rifle is a .338WM.

This is the only big game rifle I have. It is made of stainless steel, has a CRF bolt, a synthetic stock, and topped with a Leupold Vary-X III 2.5-8x. Best of all, it drops moose right now!

This is my "all around" rifle since it works for me and my type of hunting, and it may well be the most popular cartridge where I hunt.

I too believe an "all around" rifle is going to vary depending on the real estate.
I have used two rifles that have been pretty all around. One has been used for smaller vermin and coyotes to deer, and the other is more of a big game only.
My favorite is the .257 Roberts, as it can be used to bring home the widest variety of animals. I have used both 75gr. bullets for varmints and switched to deer bullets in the same day without adjusting the scope. That is "all around".
The other one is a more recent addition and is quickly becoming a favorite. It's a Win M70 Super Grade Classic, 7mm Rem Mag, with a Vari-X III. This is a bit large for antelope and a bit small for Griz, but with a 160gr. or 175gr. it can be used for everything. If not restricted to a single loading, then 140gr. GameKings have worked well for deer, and 160 and up would be my choice for Elk or Moose.
The bad thing about "all around rifles" is that it makes it harder to come up with an excuse to get something else. I'm still wanting but have several overlapping performers in my safe!

I do not yet own the rifle I see as my perfect allarounder, since mine thus far are aimed at certain tasks. I do own at least one rifle with each of its' major traits: cartridge chambered, barrel length, action type etc.. I feel that this puts me in a position to choose what I would want for this role. A M70 short action in .350 RM with a Douglas (I like their contours) 20" barrel in an all walnut laminate stock wearing a Burris 4 power compact backed by a second of the same. One load for all denies this round much of its' inherent versatility, but any 250 grain spitzer or spire at 2400 should do. Big heavy bullets at moderate velocities tend to perform whether premium or not, and I like either of the two Speers.

Yes, I am breaking your barrel length range; but I like compact rifles and it is enough for the cartridge. Yes, I am biasing the rig for 250 yard shots ( most are or should be especially for me) and less; but it will still meet the specs you qoute. I will happily trade some speed for diameter and weight on moose or bears.

Fireplug

Fireplug... you're scaring me! I've honestly been contemplating nearly the same rifle you describe above. I'll take my stainless M70 in 300 WSM and send it to Dennis Olsen and have him screw on a #2 Douglas barrel (I agree, their contour's are the best looking... "just right" at the shank). I'd have it cut at 20" and install a front blade of some sort with a nice, large white bead as well as aquire one of Ashley's rear peep's for use on a Weaver base to use as a back-up for the 1x4 Leupold on top. I'd have this rifle long-throated to take advantage of the WSM's 3.00" magazine. 2,600 fps shouldn't be a problem with the 250 gr. bullets seated out to just within 3". I have an old handloader magazine where a gent does this same thing on a Mauser... he called it the "Stretched 350 RM." He got 2,630 fps with 250's in a 20" Douglas bbl. I'd stock the rifle in a High Tech fiberglass stock for an all-up weight of around 7 3/4 lbs.

BA

Well I agree with a lot of your post BUT I think the 6.5 is well capable of being an allrounder.

I have considered how a 3 position safety works and I cannot see how with safe handling it is necessary or even desirable.

If the scope is fixed power then 6 is tops and even that is not ideal for large moving animals up close.

For me 6.5x55 on an 09 argentine, good wood stock, swarovski 6x42 in steel mounts real low, 24" sporter barrel, either 140gr partition, 140gr A frame or 156gr oryx - whichever shot best.

JohnS,

When we get on topics like this the details count and I am positive that you know this too. Your just talking about your favorite and I am saying that it's not optimum for my woods. And it's not. That's what "all around" means, it also means "that's all you have" and in your case and mine that's not true and we have many rifles suitable for different situations.

My choice would be my M-70 Featherweight in 30/06. It's lighter and better balanced than a .300 Weatherby but still a little too big for my woods. But it's my choice for a all around.

Don-
Actually, my favorite cartridge is the 270WCF but it's not as good an all arounder as the 30cal. So.. to duplicate it's trajectory and velocity I went to the 300mag. and have been more than happy with it's performance. The old '06 isn't bad and I doubt much of the game I've shot with the 300 would have known the difference. But there are places and circumstances that the difference becomes more obvious, so for that one rifle for the world scenario I'm better off with the 300.

Most customers end up building or buying a whole bunch of all round rifles. It doesn't matter that they already have a 270, 30/06,7mm Mag and a 300. Their next rifle will likely be a 280 or 7x57 or something of the sort.
So, for most of North America there are a whole bunch of perfectly usable all round cartridges. From the 6.5x55 (on the light side)to the 375 (on the heavy side). In reality the magnums, while they can work for all things, really are not that good for whitetails in the dense woods.
As far as rifles are concerned, again, there are a wholebunch of factory rifles and custom rifles that fill the bill.
My first big game rifle was a 303 British (mandatory for anyone hunting in Canada). This rifle could (and did)take anything from gophers to elk with the appropriate load. It was accurate and reliable and since it was the only rifle I had it was truly an all around rifle.
One grandfather hunted everything with a 300 H&H so for him this was an all around rifle. The other one used a M94 for everything and for him this did the trick. Although both of these men used their rifles as a around rifles I doubt that either one was the ideal. That 300 was long and heavy and the 30/30 was short on power.
I have not made a shot nor seen a shot made that could not have been successfully made with a 308 Winchester, or a 30/06, or a 35 Whelen or even my old .303. In the end I think all around use has more to do with the user than the rifle. Regards, Bill.

Bill-
Your last sentence reminds me of a phrase by one of our more prominent gun writers. "We have plenty of all around rifles, but where are the all around hunters" or something close to that!

I'm most definately not an all round rifle kind of guy (way too many choices), but I hunt with a guy who hunts everything I do, everywhere I do, with a Winchester 70 in 30-06. I don't think the brand matters much, any decent rifle in 30-06 would do. Way too boring for me, though. - Dan

I have a couple of rifles that fit your criteria, but my "go to" rifle is a Magnum Research Mountain Eagle (the old style), which is a Sako action trued and tuned by Krieger with a 24" Krieger cut rifled barrel (not criterion), the action has been machined to accept Remington bases and rings and has been bedded in an H-S stock, the caliber is 338 Win Mag it wears a Burris Black Diamond 3-12 scope. Accuracy runs 1/2-3/4 Moa with 250 grain bullets.

These rifles "on the street" price was around $800-$1000, a great deal for the work you get.

FWIW,

Jim

This is a great discussion, here's my $0.02:

First, I wholeheartedly agree that the cases that hold 90+ gr.of powder are completely unnecessary and are possibly counter productive for most hunters. Yes, I've owned a 300 wby, loved it at the time, but I'm over it.

Second, I also agree that moderate velocity will generate better bullet performance, and will shoot adequately flat for 300 or even 350 yd shots. (Personally, I believe that 98% of the 400-500 shots ever taken were while hunting at the keyboard)

Third, I'm a believer in moderate magnification in scopes for lots of reasons Ie: Generally, longer and more flexible eye relief, better balance on a light rifle, wider field and better light for close in shots, a light scope has less momentum in recoil therefore it's easier to keep it in the mounts.

I disagree in degree however, about the light rifle point. While a light rifle IS harder to shoot in the classic offhand shooting pose, I'd contend that an offhand shot should only be taken at short range, and fairly quickly. Most of my rifles are very light 5 1/4 - 6 1/2 (scoped) and I find that I can hit @ 50 - 100 yds as well as with my heavier ones. However, the most important part of this is that if I have enough time for a deliberate offhand shot, then I have enough time for a more secure shooting position. I don't think that I've made an offhand shot over 70 yds in 20 years, but I've made a lot of shots from a quickly assumed sitting or kneeling positions.

So, about the rifle.....

Remington short action, 338-08, 2X7 Leo, Wt 5 3/4.
200 Btip/or Horn. spire @ 2700, 210 Partition @ 2625. Trajectory is within 1" of a 180/308/2750 out to 350 yds, (250 zero) with the tangible benefit of a fatter bullet. Recoil is equal to 8.5 lb 300 win.

I'm a backpacker, so light/short is important, if I weren't a backpacker, I'd build the same gun but with a slightly heavier barrel.

If a wildcat were off limits, then I'd do an '06 and try for the same weight.

My HO...JimF

Jim's point here is well said.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JimF:

"I disagree in degree however, about the light rifle point. While a light rifle IS harder to shoot in the classic offhand shooting pose, I'd contend that an offhand shot should only be taken at short range, and fairly quickly. Most of my rifles are very light 5 1/4 - 6 1/2 (scoped) and I find that I can hit @ 50 - 100 yds as well as with my heavier ones. However, the most important part of this is that if I have enough time for a deliberate offhand shot, then I have enough time for a more secure shooting position. I don't think that I've made an offhand shot over 70 yds in 20 years, but I've made a lot of shots from a quickly assumed sitting or kneeling positions."
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I call it a myth from the Col. Whelan era that a rifle that is muzzle heavy is best for offhand shots. I started with such rifles as I go back to the early 50's and my P-17 sporter.

As Jim points out the best reason for a shot from the standing position is for game that is very close and may run or game that is already running. For running game a light bbl is best as you must follow the animal and it's easier to control a rifle or a shotgun for that matter that is not muzzle heavy.

But to me a woods rifle that is at or under eight pounds is just fine. I have held Ultra Light's and they are cute but I like my old favorites.

Brad,

I like the sound of your version too. I guess my short barreled and short magazined M600 caused me to under estimate the velocity boost of adding a little to each. Still very fond of M600 very light and handy at six pounds ready to go,but not really as good a do-it-all rifle as the versions we are contemplating.

Fireplug