Sadly, I have the unpleasant and painful task of announcing the death of hunting. Hunting has put up a valiant fight for several years now, trying to survive the slow and steady progression that was made by the Anti-Hunting forces around the World and here in America to bring about its demise.

Regretfully, as with so many other things, it was a cancer within hunting that brought about the end. It started out small as many ailments do, but then began a rapid growth phase that no one really seemed willing to fight, or maybe it was a case of too many people wanting to fight, not the disease, but among themselves.

Hunters, not all, but many, lost sight of the belief that as a group we needed to support each other to keep hunting alive.

Alas, that all changed. We began to find reasons to argue and bicker, draw lines of division over who is or isn't a "Real Hunter", based upon our Individual thoughts/beliefs or concepts about hunting.

Hunters started maligning each other over their choice of firearm caliber to use, over whether the person paying for a hunt had any actual right to decide how they wanted to or were willing conduct their hunt. Doing something Legally no longer was acceptable, it had to be conducted under another individuals own personal set of ethics or beliefs. Even reaching the point where some openly claimed that unless another person conducted themselves in the exact manner as the person making the judgment, the other person had no right to refer to themselves as a Hunter or what they were doing as Hunting.

The facts that an individual was buying and paying for their equipment/licenses/travel expenses and all the other monetary and time outlays associated with a hunt, and doing everything legally as set forth by the laws concerning hunting in the location where the activity was being conducted, no longer meant anything.

They were going to have to conduct themselves according to an unwritten, variable set of ethics/guidelines, that were only made known to them, AFTER their Hunt(?) was over and they were misguidedly posting pictures of the trophies they were proud of on an internet forum with its own highly opinionated Kangaroo Court waiting to pass judgment because the persons Hunt(?) did not meet their lofty requirements.

It is a sad commentary and legacy that future generations will inherit, Hunting killed by those that supposedly cared so much for it.

Sorry for offending you or anyone else Todd. I thought that I was being civil toward everyone with my post.

I honestly do not think anything I have stated in those various posts is something that cannot be seen on a continual basis here on AR or on any other hunting/firearm related forum on the internet.

Look at the African hunting section and notice how many threads are going on about Mark Sullivan and the tone of some of the comments being made. Look down in the Small Caliber topic area and the thread about shooting deer with a .223. Look at some of the responses and the accusations being made on both sides of the issue.

Even closer, look at your responses to me on this topic. You accuse me of being drunk, you ask that I post pictures, but seem to be saying that I should not post opinions on anything. A few months back, you admonished me for the language/phrasing/content of my responses on various topics. You felt that I was wrong. I have worked at being more civil toward fellow members of the AR, and here you are giving a glaring example of what I am pointing out in my opening post, hunters, cannot get along or respect other hunters for having an opinion that differs from their own.

Instead of just moving along to something else, you seem to feel that you need to try and show me where I am wrong and all I should post is pictures and hunt reports. I happen to believe that if hunters, as a group, do not start setting aside all the petty differences they find to admonish or discriminate against other hunters, none of us will be posting pictures of anything we have killed or giving any reports because hunting will no longer be legal, simply because hunters refuse to stop finding lines of division amongst themselves.

Maybe it would be a good idea for you to just not look at any of my posts or responses.

The one's that are bitching the most are the one's that have caused most of the trouble/

It is true that the shooting community is one of the places that kill and devour their wounded. Make one mistake and the community will eat you.

We really do need to keep guns away from those with mental problems.

In my opinion the ranks of hunters comprise an unusually high percentage of folks who just don't play well with others.

CHC:

Why is this such a big deal for you? Hunting is definitely not going to be outlawed in your lifetime or mine. There is no big push from the general public to ban hunting. This is evident by the rhetoric going on over gun control. Gun control advocates go out of their way to say they do not want to disarm 'letitimate hunters.' If hunting didn't have the support (or at least the approval) of the general public why would the gun-grabbers feel the need to point this out so vehemently? Also, the percentages of anti-hunters = hunters = disinterested public has remained the same for decades at roughly 10% for, 10% against and 80% don't care one way or the other.

Future generations will have to set their own priorities and it's pretty clear that those priorities will be different. Auto makers are already finding that out. Today's kids just aren't as interested in cars as previous generations were. The latest smartphone is much more important than a set of wheels. The sense of freedom, adventure and independence that a car represents to a teenager no longer matters. And don't words like "freedom" "adventure" and "indpendence" essentially describe the hunting experience? In other words your grandkids probably don't give a $hit so why worry about it? It's their decision (and their loss.)

I also believe that the urge or instinct to hunt is ingrained in some of us and it will come out no matter what. For proof I only need to look in the mirror. When the urge hit me 44 years ago, nobody cared if I got a chance to hunt or not. Nobody cares now. My hunting opportunities were (and remain) entirely up to me. It wasn't easy (no farmers or landowners anywhere in my lineage) but I stuck with hunting because that "something" inside wouldn't give up. I suspect that this will become the norm. Future hunters who "answer the call" won't have it easy but they'll find a way.

quote:

Originally posted by jjbull:
We really do need to keep guns away from those with mental problems.

How bout we just start with keyboards?

quote:

Originally posted by Wendell Reich:

quote:

Originally posted by jjbull:
We really do need to keep guns away from those with mental problems.

How bout we just start with keyboards?

A good start, yes.

I wouldn't feel any safer but maybe the headaches would subside.

quote:

Why is this such a big deal for you?

Possibly because I have witnessed first hand how attitudes toward hunting/hunters and gun ownership have changed over the years, especially over the past 20 or so.

Is there not a whole lot of in-fighting going on among hunters?

The following two comments are more accurate than ANYTHING anyone else has said on this discussion.

quote:

It is true that the shooting community is one of the places that kill and devour their wounded. Make one mistake and the community will eat you.

quote:

In my opinion the ranks of hunters comprise an unusually high percentage of folks who just don't play well with others.

Todd, you are making an accusation about my "Drinking" that you have absolutely NO knowledge of what I might drink or how much. An accusation that amounts to nothing more than an unsubstantiated lie.

Prove that I had ANYTHING to drink when I made the OP. Can you do that?

I am having a hard time understanding why anyone expressing a concern over the future of hunting, is met with such hostility.

It would be great if all anyone posted was pictures from their hunts and reports, but as has been seen on this site, people have stopped posting pictures or giving reports because of the negative reactions of other members.

Anyone that does not believe that our ability to hunt is not in danger of being lost, is only kidding themselves.

Just-A-Hunter, you may be a really great person and highly thought of, but you do not actually know anything about me. Accusing me of having too many beers when making the OP is nothing more than a lie, and something you cannot prove. If you can Do So.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
I am having a hard time understanding why anyone expressing a concern over the future of hunting, is met with such hostility.

quote:

......and you do post over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over how divided we as a group are.

Does that clear it up?

I will be the whipping boy again, would not want to disappoint anyone.

There is a whole lot more to this story than what has been posted. People don't just walk in and kill hunting because a bunch of online posters can't agree.

I agree with so many on AR

Ignore is a good thing

No one baited me into anything. Look at how many threads are on the African Hunting topic area concerning Mark Sullivan and how he conducts business.

Look at the thread on the small calibers topic area concerning the use of .223/.224 for hunting deer. Look at the thread on the medium bores topic area concerning Powerful Rifles versus Weaker Rifle for hunting. On both of those, it is not the actual merits of the calibers, but the personal preference of the posters.

Did you or did you not make this statement:

quote:

How many beers in when you wrote this?

Now Please enlighten everyone as to your intentions with that statement.

Did you or did you not make the above statement?

Did you or did you not make the following statement, having NO actual knowledge whether I drink or not:

quote:

As far as being drunk, I never said you were drunk but it doesn't take very many beers to make some more emotional than they normally would be.

You are going to try and deny that you accused me of something that you have no actual/factual knowledge of, something that everyone on this site can view for themselves.

You say on the one hand you are baiting me, while on the other you say that as long as I post only pictures and hunt reports, you have no problem. Why does my having an opinion/concern over the future of hunting, and being willing to express that concern, bother you so much?

What I would like from you Todd, is for you to understand that I am not your enemy, and that is one of the points I have been trying to make with this discussion. To Many Hunters View Other Hunters That Do Not Agree With Them 100% As An Enemy!

I am not over-reacting any more to the threats against hunting than anyone that is expressing their concerns about our Second Amendment Rights, which, by the way, has NOTHING to do with hunting. If we lose our Second Amendment Rights, we have lost our ability to hunt.

You view things however you wish, PLEASE allow me that same courtesy.

quote:

Originally posted by Bigasanelk:
CHC:

Why is this such a big deal for you? Hunting is definitely not going to be outlawed in your lifetime or mine.

The problem is none of us will likely live long enough to see the death of hunting. If it looked as if hunting was going to die IN OUR LIFETIME, I can just hear the uproar. The problem is it more than likely isn't going to die a slow death, soon. If it DIRECTLY AFFECTED YOU I bet you'd be screaming. I would, oh and I DO.

quote:

Hunting is definitely not going to be outlawed in your lifetime or mine.

I never said that it would, but isn't that a hell of a legacy to leave those that follow us?

We had the chance to save hunting, but because we were not actually going to be affected, we decided to let it be taken away from those following us.

I have no children, but I seriously hate to think that future generations are going to be denied the ability to hunt, due to the lack of concern of todays hunters.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

Hunting is definitely not going to be outlawed in your lifetime or mine.

I never said that it would, but isn't that a hell of a legacy to leave those that follow us?

We had the chance to save hunting, but because we were not actually going to be affected, we decided to let it be taken away from those following us.

I have no children, but I seriously hate to think that future generations are going to be denied the ability to hunt, due to the lack of concern of todays hunters.

Yep.

While I may not see the end to hunting in my lifetime, I can certainly see how it could make a DRASTIC change. Even if one looks around the country and then the world.

First is the lie from the anti-gun people that "we only want your assault weapons". Well, that has never been condensed, only expanded. Next will be the push for all semi-auto weapons, under the guise of, "well, since we can not get all those assault weapons and high capacity mags, we will just restrict all semi-autos". "Just look at the UK. It is such a great model for us."

Next will come the ammo itself. "We do not need all that military ammo on the streets. Why would anyone need that?" There goes 9mm, 30-06, 308, 7x57, etc.

Then how about the double edged sword of lead? "The environment can't stand all that lead, so we need to ban all ammo with lead in it". Then the flip side, "Wait, we can't have all that unimetal armour piercing ammo in the hands of the populace." Hasn't the government already gone after the people that were making the 223 with the Barnes type bullets as handgun AP ammo?

I do not see any of this as far fetched, since I have heard it all in various liberal conversations already. Unless we stand together and fight the brown shirts of the Secret Service and TSA, it very well could happen via executive order tomorrow.

Hunting would be severely crippled forever. Freedom lost is hard to regain.

Good Grief CHC!

You show more reverence for a completely made up thread with the obvious objective of starting some crap than you do for a real obituary when a guy that many here actually knew was tragically murdered.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Good Grief CHC!

You show more reverence for a completely made up thread with the obvious objective of starting some crap than you do for a real obituary when a guy that many here actually knew was tragically murdered.

Exactly! See jjbulls's response earlier in the thread. This is not lost on many people here...

quote:

Originally posted by jjbull:
I will be the whipping boy again, would not want to disappoint anyone.

There is a whole lot more to this story than what has been posted. People don't just walk in and kill hunting because a bunch of online posters can't agree.

quote:

This is not lost on many people here...

It was not lost on me either, but I cannot undo what I did/said. I was wrong, but I cannot change that either.

I think however if some of you that hold such bad feelings toward me over what I said will look back, when the news first broke nothing was mentioned about the shooter having mental problems, which I did mention by saying that it was probably the action of an over jealous husband.

I will have to answer to a higher authority than ANY of you self righteous/pious individuals when I die, but keep in mind, you will be facing that same judge.

Returning to the topic, it seems that todays hunters are more concerned with finding lines of division with in our ranks, than being concerned about trying to insure that those that follow us will still be able to hunt.

Since you're on ignore, I only see the OP. But, since hunting is dead, does that mean you'll stop posting on these forums?

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Good Grief CHC!

You show more reverence for a completely made up thread with the obvious objective of starting some crap than you do for a real obituary when a guy that many here actually knew was tragically murdered.

Good point. Now I remember why he's on ignore.

quote:

does that mean you'll stop posting on these forums?

No, it just means I am tired of fighting with folks.

I am just entitled to my opinion as everyone else is as long as I do it in a civil/reasonable manner.

You and the rest of the people that seem to hate me so much, can just keep right on ignoring me. Although having placed people on an ignore list sounds impressive, I have found out that it is too easy to slip over and view their posts and there is always the problem of another member quoting the person that is on ignore and the response showing up during the course of a discussion.

This is a perfect example of what I am trying to point out in starting this discussion. People, fellow hunters/gun owner's, developing a hatred toward another hunter/gun owner, simply over the fact that person simply views things differently and is not afraid to state their opinion and stand by it.

No different than the folks involved in the .223 as a deer rifle discussion, or those in the Mark Sullivan beat down. The list goes on.

The thing they all have in common is that they create divisions among hunters/gun owners, two groups that in many folks opinion have enough enemies as it is, that creating these lines of division within our own ranks only hurts us as a group.

I won't live long enough to see all hunting outlawed or at least I hope I don't, same with gun ownership, but I could take the stance that since it won't actually effect me I could just not care what happens in the future. I am not comfortable with that and simply do not see where starting a discussion about the long range future of hunting is actually hurting anyone.

I'm really starting to wonder when CHC is going to wake up and realize he's his own worst enemy!

Everybody back off. He makes me look like an opitimist.