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I drew a non-resident elk tag for Wy. I am tickled and have private property to hunt. But something I just read and was told by G&F folks is that a non-resident can not hunt wilderness areas with-out a guide or resident hunter. This is BS, I back pack the same wildeness areas in the summer, spring, and fall. What is the difference if I am fishing or hunting??? I can go into the same wilderness area during hunting season but just can't hunt. No other state has such a restriction. All wilderness areas are public land, land that is federal and belongs to everyone. You can go onto the tundra of alaksa alone to hunt moose and caribou, but you can't hunt anything in Wyoming. This sounds like descrimination!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Or are they proctecting the outfitters of Wyoming????? ![[Mad]](images/icons/mad.gif){kind=icon} | ||
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| one of us |
I have to agree and I don't think it is right. Maybe some day some one will challenge it in court. Public land is public land. You can go into the Thorofare any day of the year to hike around or fish but take a gun and try to hunt and you are breaking the law. ![[Confused]](images/icons/confused.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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| one of us |
I spent a few years living in a shack in the mountains of Wyoming. The guide law is Political Science 101. The Guides and Outfitters live in Wyoming. They pay taxes and they vote. More important, they donate cash to local political candidates with obvious results. For those who can't think, it's monopoly for a few using the law. I agree it's public land, but you want to hunt game regulated by the state and the state puts all sorts of restriction on that hunting, for residents and non-residents. It's the political power of a few pure and simple. | |||
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| one of us |
Its really not that tough to figure out. The outfitters have lobbied and as a result got the wilderness law passed. Now the fuckers are trying to get set aside tags. The best thing for nonresidents to do is boycott wyoming. Stop buying tags. The prices the wyoming game and fish are getting for nonresident tags are insane. They keep increasing resident tags also. Its not like the game and fish manage anything. What do they do? Set season dates for hunting and then do aerial counts on big game herds,big deal. Most of the money generated off of tags,go to supporting all of the multi million dollar office facilities that G and F just had to build during the 1990's. Plus they have more office help to support,meanwhile game warden numbers remain the same or shrink. With all these new facilities,they had to hire curators and tour guides. These people make more a year,then the average biologist. Then they have to buy brand new trucks every other year And these trucks can't be work trucks,they have to be loaded with every option available. The money left from this goes into feeding elk herds,that the public rarely have an oppurtunity to hunt. Whats left from this goes into running a few fish hatcheries,with the fish being sold or traded to other states,since wyoming doesn't stock rivers or streams. Then you have bird farms,that are run by the G and F. They spend millions on raising pheasants and other select birds. So they can release these birds on public land with no cover. The result is the birds that aren't killed by predators,which is better then 50% of all birds,then run onto private lands with cover and aren't hunted or are hunted by a select few. | |||
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I would love for someone to challange this law in court. I think it is very unjust. [ 03-24-2003, 01:00: Message edited by: Elkslayer ] | |||
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Yep Eltigre, you got it right!(Discrimination!) Bet you didn't even get a kiss or did they use any vasiline. (By the way check your private messages.) RMK, you're right on the money too! New TRUCKS for Game & Fish, fully loaded, and what, every year or maybe two? ![[Eek!]](images/icons/shocked.gif){kind=icon} Let me ask you this; did you ever see one of them dirty? LOL! ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} Or even a Game warden with dirty or dusty boots? Hmmm? Guess they don't want to track mud into the Coffee Shop? OPPS! I mean the office! ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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| one of us |
First, that was a cheap shot I took at the Wyoming Game Wardens, sad but true though. The only ones I've seen out in the "BUSH" have been the junior officers, but the good thing about this is they do a real good job and take it very seriously! ![[Cool]](images/icons/cool.gif){kind=icon} Elkslayer; That might prove pretty hard to do in a Local, Bias Court. Hard to get around the "Good-ol-Boys" Commissioners, who by the way just got their "Compensation" tripled! | |||
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| one of us |
All in all, I think Wyoming does a fine job. Perhaps there's a little "home cooking" involved but you're going to find that wherever you go. Didn't you know you were trying to draw a tag in a wilderness area when you put in? | |||
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| one of us |
Ya marsh mule,they had to buy ford super duties when the new models came out with the power stroke option. The reasoning behind it was better mileage and the ability to pull trailers. A friend of mine works for the game and fish as a heavy equipment operator. He says out of dozens of these super duties around the state only three of them are even wired for trailers and he pulls all of his equipment with an old chevy. For years G and F used mostly fords and occasional chevys. Until dodge remodeled their trucks in 1994,then suddenly dodge was an option. Even though the first dodge pick ups sold for 2 or 3 grand above suggested retail,because they were in short supply. It was ok the public was paying for it. The reason they drive single cabs,is because of public out cry towards club cabs with only a single occupant. So the solution was to buy single cab trucks with a custom utility box added. The contract for the custom box was 2 grand per box or basically the additional cost of an extra cab. Your dollars at work. | |||
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| new member |
Beemanbeme! Yes I was aware of what i applied for. I have access to private property and some public land via the private to hunt. I have applied several times and this is the first elk tag. But I didn't know of the Wyoming wilderness law and wanted to bring it up. How would you like to be a guy who drew a moose, elk, deer, or even a sheep tag and only to find out you can't go on public land in a wilderness area to hunt. But you can walk or ride into the same area to have a picnic. D-I-S-C-R-I-M-I-N-A-T-I-O-N! [ 03-24-2003, 04:24: Message edited by: Eltigre ] | |||
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| one of us |
RMK; I got an up close look at one of those SUPER-DUTY's this last fall. Some friends there in Wyoming loaned us a camp trailer to use this last year! We were in heaven! A real roof over our heads! So, having the trailer we couldn't get far off the beaten roads. One day while were fixing lunch I heard an engine running, it sounded real close so I looked out the trailer, and there sat a Game Warden, just sitting in his new pickup. So I went out side to greet him and he wouldn't even get out of his truck! He asked to see our permits and then wanted to be sure to let us know that we couldn't venture into the wilderness without a guide. We told him, no problem, seeing we were still more than 6 miles from the Wilderness boarder, and we weren't about to hike that distance at 9000 feet elevation! Anyway I remarked to him that he sure had a nice truck, he just grinned and said; "yep sure is, they take real good care of us." Hey did you know there were 4 Game Wardens retire this year? There not replacing them either! Citing there concerns about funding! I bet the POACHERS are just licking their chops! | |||
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| <jeremy w> |
quote:I don't know if I would want to share the fields with them anyway since the application has the wilderness law in bold in several different places. If they didn't read that when they applied then they must not have read any of the laws. | ||
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| one of us |
True, but even if they know of the law they still can't hunt. I would challenge you to go into an elk area and find the wilderness boundry line. I have hunted 61 and 62 many times and it is hard to define. | |||
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| one of us |
Ya,they aren't replacing the wardens,because they started using alot of moonlighting cops and sheriff deputies,to enforce laws during the hunting season. Plus they've been using more and more biologists as enforcement. In my area of the state,its fairly common for the wardens to stay in their vehicles while they check you. Two years ago the local warden had a problem with a hunter and ended up with a rifle pointed at him,in a stand off. There wasn't shit he could do,the truck motor was off and no radio connection. Finally two other hunters ended up helping the warden. Its amazing,you have an area with limited radio access and little if any backup available,yet these game wardens treat people like shit and leave themselves in situations that no other law enforcement officer would allow themselves to be in,with back up available. When you look at the statistics for game violations. You'll find in many cases,the majority of these violations are the result of the public using poaching hotlines to alert authorities to violators. The next common thing is sheriff deputies enforcing gmae laws. In some cases you have as many if not more violators caught by sheriff deputies as you do Wardens. I've talked to wardens about getting caught breaking game laws and they've all laughed. There's only 43 game wardens for the entire state and with additional help(biologists) the number is around 72. One warden told me barring bad luck,in order to get caught poaching,you'd have to do more then step on your dick,you'd have to stomp on it. | |||
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| one of us |
Jeremy; I know a couple guides and outfitters in SW Wyoming personally, and have spoken with them about "PETA" issues and the like and they are genuinely concerned. Their association you speak of is all but a joke. They have no real power to police themselves and I doubt they would anyway, sure they investigate complaints filed, but that is as far as it usually goes. But the only way you're really going to get them involved is if they see an immediate threat to their Wallets! I recently read an article in the Billings newspaper where this one "Outfitter" was quite outspoken. When I first started reading I was genuinely impressed and thought this guy is a fighter! That is, until I read his LAST statement, then his true colors shown through like a Beacon. His last statement shows clearly the mind-set and arrogance of many people in Wyoming towards non-residents including Game & Fish. Click on the link below to read for yourself. Now don't miss-read what I just said, I said "many" not all! I've met far more really nice people in Wyoming than otherwise. There are quite a few I am proud to have had the privledge to call friends for over 30 years. Pay particular attention to "Maury's" last statement. This is one Outfitter I wouldn't hire if he were the last one available. http://www.billingsgazette.com/index.php?id=1&display=rednews/2003/02/25/build/wyoming/wxgr-nonresident.inc | |||
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| one of us |
Back to the topic of this thread,the wilderness areas and nonresidents. Nonresidents really aren't missing much by not being able to hunt wilderness areas. Most of these areas are only good during archery hunting and select special gun seasons,because most of these areas are at high elevation and are so effected by weather. Most animals are at low elevation and out of the wilderness areas,by the time gun seasons start. In the end its still nothing but outfitters getting laws passed to take care of themselves and their clients,the hell with everyone else. | |||
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RMK; All statements are right on the button! Tis true, Most of the wilderness I've been in is some STEEP nasty country! If you're not part Mountain Goat or have horses, you're in for a lot of work. Also, I sent you a PM. | |||
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| <jeremy w> |
quote:That would be "Maury Jones". He is SOB deluxe and I have told him so on previous occasions when I debated with him over "set asides". Back to the subject of WYOGA, when I send them group e-mails about "set asides" or other money issues I get about 50 e-mails, however when I ask for support against anti hunters I get no e-mails. Go figure. [ 03-24-2003, 11:35: Message edited by: jeremy w ] | ||
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| <jeremy w> |
quote:Up in area 95 where I hunt the boundary has signs posted along part of it and the water line of Green River Lake makes up another significant part of it. I have hosted relatives from MN and been their "guide" so it is possible to hunt with out of state friends and family without them having to pay an outfitter. In 95 we all get sick of our only competition being Thompson Outfitters and their clients. A few times now they have screwed up our hunt by "cowboying up" and riding like hell past us into herds we were stalking. I would rather share the fields with honest out of state hunters on their own than some fat cowboy leading a train of rich out of staters that probably call home to check the stock market every 3 hours. This is especially so when the Wyoming outfitters haven't got the time of day to come fight people like Andrea Lococo of Fund For Animals when she comes to speak at my school. | ||
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Deer Ears!! You're back! I missed you. Actually I agree with your comments this time. Amazing. | |||
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Eltigre, As jeremy pointed out, it is possible to hunt wilderness area without hiring a professional guide. If you know a resident, (I assume you do since you have access to private land) he can get a resident guide license thru Game and Fish. I believe cost is about $30. Then he can be the "guide" for any non-resident hunter. Don't get me wrong...I am not disagreeing in any way that the system is even remotely OK. I am trying to point out that it is possible for you to hunt that wilderness area if you desire thru your landowner buddy. For what it is worth, I agree with everyone else posting here that the current system sucks! | |||
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Thanks queerhorn,I'll sleep alot better knowing you agree with me. | |||
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| <jeremy w> |
quote:Actually the cost is free. It is this provision that keeps the law safe. If the non-residents that previously lived here and the family of residents that live here didn't have a provision to hunt then the "average joe" would raise hell in short order. While outfitters and ranchers buy law makers it has been proven that the average hunter can raise hell and make a difference given motivation. | ||
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| one of us |
I lived in Wyoming for several years, and I hunt there almost every year. The wilderness area thing really sucks because I used to hunt and hike those areas all the time. Now I have to take a relative up there. I don't appreciate a lot of the bad mouthing of the Game Wardens. They are doing a hard job, and I respect what they do. The only encounters I've had with them in Wyoming have been positive. Once, one even helped me chain up when I was stuck on Muddy Mountain. | |||
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Its not bad mouthing wardens,its calling it the way it is. | |||
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| one of us |
The law actually was contested in court a couple years ago and the Court upheld the "Wilderness Law" There are a couple sportsman's groups that are considering a second lawsuit challenging the law. The law is complete BS. We ride into the Thorofare every year or two during the summer cutt spawn. Great country. But we can't hunt it. What a joke. And the statements that "Most wilderness areas are too steep, or too high, or are only good on Archery hunts" are idiotic. Outfitters wanted the law for the simple fact that the hunting tends to be Better in the wilderness areas. Mike Eastman hunted the Thorofare last year for his TV show because it holds the PRIME hunting opportunity. Deer hunting in F in the wilderness areas would be the experience of a lifetime. Docile bucks that never get pushed early. I don't need a guide to hold my hand, I am self-sufficent and capable on my thank you. I don't have a friend in WY that can go with me where I want to go. The law is a joke. I drew a Gen Elk tag this year and I'll be hunting in a sub-par area. I could see the limitation on State lands, but these are Fedral Lands. | |||
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Like was stated mgc,the majority of wilderness areas are good during select special early gun seasons and archery hunts. Due to most of the wilderness areas being at high elevation,weather pushes most animals out by the time hunting seasons start. The eastman hunt that was on espn,which was an early hunt,is a prime example,of why the outfitters want nonresidents to have a guide. People like eastman paying to hunt,fuels these outfitters to lobby for wilderness area restrictions. Kick these fucking outfitters off of national forest and see how long restrictions remain on nonresidents hunting. | |||
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It's not just Wyoming. Montana has the same good ol' biy system, and it stinks to high heaven. no one hears about it when new regulations come up from the outfitters board. There are a lot of disreputable, dishonest, and underhanded outfitters operating in the west. Always make sure you get good references, not only from successful hunters, but also unsuccessful. You are in good shape with private land at least. | |||
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| <Dan in Wa> |
And I thought Washington State was a shit hole to hunt in. Actually there are a few game wardens that have my upmost respect and a few that can screw themselves. T | ||
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| One of Us |
quote:A state cannot enact laws that create an undue restriction on interstate commerce. But the argument that Wyoming will make is that the commerce in question occurs entirely within Wyoming so there is no interstate commerce implication at all. And the judge will be a federal judge born, raised, educated and living in Wyoming. So best of luck. | |||
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| <jeremy w> |
quote:I would hardly call Wyoming a "shit hole to hunt in". On the contrary, if this were the case non-residents would not take issue with the law in question. I also think it would be a mistake to take this issue to federal court. This would turn all resident hunters, outfitters and non, against you. Instead, and more effective, start a campaign of letter writing and lobby the G&F. If some were motivated enough to get the ball rolling then a good portion of residents would likely help out. We don't like to be sued, it could be seen as an attack on us. Look at the attitude the west has toward the feds forcing wolves on us... [ 03-25-2003, 05:53: Message edited by: jeremy w ] | ||
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| <Herb D> |
While hunting Wyoming for deer and elk last year I read in a local paper that someone is actually suing Wyoming regarding the Wilderness Law. I sure hope that he prevails. Not for myself (too old to hike into those high areas) but for those of you who are able to do it. However, I haven't heard much more since then. This law appears to be totally illogical and deserves to be struck down. Maybe, by this fall, it will be . | ||
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dan in wa; That's a pretty strong statement for someone to make that's never hunted Wyoming. Isn't Washington where the Game biologists falsified the reports on the Lynx? So I guess I can see where your distrust and anger comes from. For me, Wyoming is an outstanding place to hunt, no place I would rather hunt except maybe Alaska, but someday maybe I'll be able to fulfill that dream too! ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif){kind=icon} Jeremy's got the right idea, but to lobby the G&F would be like pissing into the wind, ![[Frown]](images/icons/frown.gif){kind=icon} , just my opinion based on the conversations I've had with them.It's the legistators who's cages you need to rattle, and I mean shake HARD! G&F is relatively immune to political unrest compared to the the guys that want to stay in office! "Votes" gentlemen, it's "Votes" and signatures on petitions that will get their attention! A great number of Non-residents and residents alike are fed up with this "Subsidy" of the Outfitters, and the "Tax Exempt Status" they enjoy! The only problem with them being taxed is it would just be passed on to their clients, (Non-residents)! A repeal of this bias and discrimatory law would be the best thing to happen to the Outfitting business! For "Quality" and also from a consumers perspective, there would be "Healthy" competition for goods&services there would be NO More "Monopoly!" In a short time, Only the GOOD ONES would survive! | |||
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Well I am glad to see all the hate for Wyoming and its hunting regs, cause it leaves a little more space for me when I step out my back door and look to the mountains. I love to hunt and fish with others but they need to be people that build up what we have not tare it down. olefish | |||
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Well Olefish; There's no hatred here for Wyoming, just the opposite! I'd say it's more like envy of having "OUT-OF-STATERS" funding 65% or better of the G&F and those same Non-residents make almost 100% of the Voluntary Donations to "Access Yes" and "Search & Rescue" programs! So Who's building what? | |||
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| one of us |
EVERY license I buy (fishing license, small game licence, etc., elk tag, deer tag, etc., vehicle registration i.e. snowmobile, four-wheeler, etc.)I make a donation to each of those.... By the end of the year, it comes out to a sizable sum... Is this going to turn into another one of those non-residents (good guys) vs. residents(bad guys) debate? | |||
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Oops....trigger happy! [ 03-25-2003, 21:35: Message edited by: Trapdoor ] | |||
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Trapdoor; This is in no way, shape or form a (Good guy X Badguy X resident X nonresident )Issue. It is aimed more to where the real problem lies, the arrogance and mindset of G&F and your Legislators that all non-residents hunters are wealthy. It's true many are, but I would venture a guess that far more are not, and are regular working type folks. This thread started as a complaint of a very bias and discrimatory Regulation. | |||
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| one of us |
I know that out of starters do a lot for WY as well as for most the other states they spend money in for all types of outdoor sports. I know that there are regs that may not make sense and are to help the special interest groups every were. But then WY has as much or more public land than any other state which enables folks to be able to enjoy without paying big $$ for access to lots of land. The price of hunting permits is getting higher everywhere we go and I do not like it any more than you do. ME the non rich guy has to save just to by the so called low cost in-state tags for WY which are higher than lots of other states. You ask why the high cost in WY well take a look at state population numbers. We have about 500,000 people trying to support what other states support with 2++++ times as many folks. The management has to be done at X $$ and so we the sports persons become the payee. I find it interesting that people I have met from all over the country that complain about the cost of the license will have several thousands of $$$ in there camp in extras that I do not even have at my home. They will go to town an spend big $$ on bozz and then even complain more. THESE ARE NOT ALL HUNTERS BUT SOME THAT I MEET. I save my $$$ to have a good time with family and friends and mostly I chose hunting and fishing. It cost money but so does being at home. People spend $$$ on vacations and fun with their families all the time and even more than the cost of one license on an evening out. By the way I have worked to help change issues for disabled hunters and helped provide training for programs, agencies and individuals on hunting and fishing is for everyone so I am working to make things better. Good luck and enjoy each and every day.olefish | |||
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