since i have a .308-and hunt with it, i would like to offer some observations and advice.

i believe that the .308 is the most versatile rifle there is; followed very closely by the .30-06. mine is a herter's mj9 (yugoslavian mauser manufactured by zastava in the mid-sixties) topped with a tasco (phillipines, NOT china) 3-9x44mm scope. it is a good all-around combo for anything i am likely to hunt in montana, from [url=http://www.federalcartridge.com/default.asp?menu=1&s1=5&s2=7#Pronghorn Antelope]proghorn antelope[/url] , to mule deer , to whitetail deer to elk . the first thing i will say is practice practice practice!

regarding "point blank range," i would suggest a 250-yard zero, which will put you in an 8-inch kill zone out to 300 yards. a 200-yard zero is fine, but a 250-yard zero will compensate for any error in estimating range. i STRONGLY recommend going to www.huntingnut.com and downloading the free POINT BLANK program. play around with it a little and learn a few things about ballisitics. not only is it fun, but it will prepare you for the field, helping you to kow exactly what your rifle can do. before i got this program, i had visions of popping mulies at 600 yards with my .308.....this program woke me up, and made me a little more aware of what a rifle can do, and do WELL, as long as you know its limits.

with a .308, i would say that 165 grain is optimum up to mule deer. 150's are more than adequate, but it doesn't hurt to adjust the percentages in your favor.

for elk and larger, you definitely want to at least look into using 180-grain. 165's would probably be fine for a broadside kill-shot, but the 180's would penetrate much better and pack a little more punch, which is a plus when going after big animals which can run fast and disappear into thin air after they are wounded, but not killed outright.

regarding ammunition, "rolling your own" is probably the best option. you can tailor the bullet, load and other factors to your rifle, and achieve some very surprising accuracy. for 20$, you can buy a lee loader in .308 and see for yourself. along with the lee loader, i would recommend forking out an extra 13$ for the two-piece case trimmer and lock stud combination made by lee. this is really all you need to start loading very consistant ammunition that will be much better than factory. if that milsurplus ammo you bought for practice has a standard "boxer" primer, SAVE THAT BRASS and reload! you will save money and have a great time, and have great ammunition. if it is berdan-primed, then take it to the recycler and invest a little $dinero$ in some virgin winchester, federal or remington brass.

if you choose not to reload, any factory ammunition will be adequate, especially if you have a newer, quality rifle. remington , winchester and federal are proven names with good stuff. the pointed soft points (spitzers) are the best all-around choice for any game.

bullet selection. the top two that i would suggest for game up to and including mule deer are hornady interlocks and sierra gamekings , both in the boat-tail variety. this is not the most popular choice, but i believe that the boat tail gives you a distinct advantage at ranges past 200 yards. even if you don't plan to shoot past 200 yards, it is not always easy to judge distances, and the boat tail might make up for the error. one guy, whom i trust, said that he had some dramatic failures with the interlock system, but i believe that these were due to the extreme velocities that he was pushing in his rifle, and the older-style interlocks were simply not designed for it. premium bullets ( nosler partitions , trophy bonded bear claws , barnes x bullets )are a good idea on [url=http://www.federalcartridge.com/default.asp?menu=1&s1=5&s2=7#Black Bear]black bear[/url] as well as elk-sized game and larger, but not always necessary. once again, it is a good idea to adjust the percentages in your favor, and a premium bullet will do this for large or dangerous game.

ballistic tips by nosler and SST bullets by hornady are great for antelope and deer, but i personally do not trust them on elk-and larger-sized game. this does not mean that they don't work, it simply means that i don't know anything about their performance on large game. one thing is for sure, those b-tips with boattails will fly as fast and far and flat as the .308 will push them. for mule deer, this could give you the edge. for any b-tip style bullet i would suggest at least 165-grain and NOT 150's. a 150-grain b-tip MIGHT work fine, but under some conditions i believe that they are closer to varmint bullets, and when making meat it is best not to take the chance.

in case yuo are wondering about one bullet that would serve as an all-around bullet to cover any situation, there is none, but the closest thing to it for the .308 would probably be the 165-grain partition. you can load the nosler partition, or winchester makes this in factory ammo in their " supreme " line.

any questions, just ask; lots of people here willing to help. most of them know more than me, but these have been my observations. the last thing i will say is PRACTICE, PRACTICE PRACTICE!!!

[ 08-25-2003, 08:06: Message edited by: tasunkawitko ]

Very good thesis. With lots of good info. I have never owned a .308, always opting for 30-06's but your post certainly makes me want to run out and buy one. Perhaps Carmichaels, et al, remark of "you never make a mistake choosing a 30-06" should be expanded to include the .308.
I particularly liked your points about knowing exactly what your rifle will do and practice, practice, practice.

A friend of mine has killed 58 head of big game with his Win. mod.88.
27 Rams, the rest were moose and caribou. All with 150 grain bullets.

Daryl

John, you mean you still haven't filled out your citizenship application??

As good as your points are, and they are very valid, I believe you have only scratched the surface.
The .308 excells in two areas you haven't touched.
Because of it's excellent expansion ratio, it makes an excellent choice for a very user friendly short, light rifle. Cooper's Scout Rifle was not based on the round by accident.
The other area it really excells in is the long range rifle catagory. I got one of the best surprises of my life when I started playing with my 700 VSFS at longer ranges. I shot a nice 6 inch group under variable wind conditions at 540 yds. one day. Not bad. But, what really surprised me was when I took off the bipod and did it from a sitting position with a shooting sling.
Why ? Because the rifle encourages much shooting, or practice because of it's low recoil and long barrel life.
John Wooter's once wrote an excellent article once comparing the .308 to the '06 and the .270. He pointed out that the .308 has 14% less recoil in factory loads than the '06 while giving up only 8% of the '06's velocity. Not a bad bargin. It can also push a 130 gr. bullet to 3100 fps. like the .270. To do that, with a bullet of lessor SD/BC, one gives up a whole 9 yds. of Point Blank Range. Again, a good bargain. E

I�ve obtained astonishing killing power and accuracy with the following recipe: Alliant�s Reloder 15 powder and 170 grains flat point bullets (wich are intended for the 30-30). Try it, kills wild hogs like lightning.
Regards

Great info but you don't have to win me over, my first rifle was a model 88 Winchester in 308 Win. and i have taken everything from whitetail to Elk with it. I have since retired my 88 for a pre-64 model 70 featherweight in 308 win. This rifle belonged to my mentor and hunting companion that has now gone to the big Elk camp in the sky. The old rifle was bought in 1953 and still shoots 3 shot groups with all holes touching. Now don't take me wrong I like my 270 Win also but the 308's just have a sweet spot in my heart.

Agree w/all and man I wish I could get 27 ram tags!!! Started shooting the 7mm-08 this year and love it. I believe that the .308 case is the best ever made for big game and targets.

Deke.

hey, everyone -

i appreciate all the replies - i was starting to think that i was the only one left who thought of the .308 as a good rifle for hunting!

eremicus - thanks for expanding on what i had to say. my ballistics experience is quite limited, but as you said, it looks like the .308 gives a lot more than can be taken away from her. if you don't mind, i might add (in paraphrase) your reply to my own copy of what i am increasingly thinking of "the .308 manifesto!" it is good information, from a point of view i hadn't considered before....

thanks again to everyone....

ron

It was !!!!!forty!!!!!!!! years ago that I bought my first wife a nice little Remington carbine in 308. It would handle anything I threw at it, load wise, and shine while doing it. You best not be down range within several hundred yards of my first wife when she was really mad at you, she was a great shot with that carbine. I always thought the round and rifle outperformed my expectations by a good bit. When we divorced, she took it with her, darn her (just kidding, kiddo). I had a twin in 243, and another in 6MM, but they were not quite the performer the 308 was. Beyond that, it was just FUN to shoot. But, of course, I just had to have 8MM OR MORE!!!

My first shooting experience was a match grade M1A, and a bipod, e2 stocked M14.

Both shot under an inch, at 100 yards, ALL DAY long, with open combat sites.
The M-14 ate me for lunch, full auto. Even with 3 round bursts, it would rise big time.

That said, your comments make me want to go out today and buy another M1A.

I believe the round is pretty near perfect. While not quite as good with heavy bullets as a 30-06, it kicks less enough to feel comfortable with a 10 pound rifle, and a steel butt pad.

I think it's pretty much perfect for case capacity to bullet weight, and speed, not slightly overbore, which I would say about the 30-06.

With ball ammo, it's deadly accurate, and, for the intended game, drops em like nothing else used. Ammo is cheap, and the guns plain shoot.
And, most important, you can practice all day long with it. Not 20 rounds a day, like my real favorite, the 375 H&H.

GREAT ROUND.

gs

This plus this
is a match made in heaven.

[ 08-28-2003, 07:12: Message edited by: Orion 1 ]

My old .308 is still my go-to rifle. I've got lots of choices from a BAR in 270 to a Dumoulin in 338 winmag, with 7x57, '06, 300 winmag and 8x57 in the middle. But still, every hunt I go on I carry the Ruger 77RSI (tang safety) as my backup. I only shoot 150 gr. loads in it, for deer and antelope, it never fails and I can find ammo anywhere if needed.

Orion1:
You are right that is a match made in heaven.

My first centerfire rifle was a 243. After shooting two boxes of ammo through, I decided I wanted a 30 cal. So I traded that rifle on a 788 chambered for the 308. That was 32 years ago, I still have that rifle. It is now getting ready to be rebarreled for the third time. I have shot everything from crows, to coyotes, to deer, hogs, and one 900# Angus steer that got out and the neighbor couldn't catch him. I caught him with two 180 gr. PSP Corelokt's at 90 yards, and various other critters, I have shot in long range competition (F class) with it. That rifle will be passed down to my grandson when he is old enough with a fresh barrel on it.......after I am done shooting it!

Shoot Safe, Shoot Straight.....RiverRat

308 Win? Grossly overrated! Anything that it can do, can be done better by any number of other cartridges. And I couldn't live without one, just because it can do almost anything.

I use it as a comparison to every other gun I use and I will always have at least one in the safe.

Savage,

I applied for a job in Alaska and another in The Yukon this year hoping for either. Alas, NEITHER panned out!

Best,

JohnTheGreek

Another great thing about the 308 is that you can neck it up or down and you only end up with another caliber almost perfectly suited to its intended purpose. Come to think about it, if a man had just the factory offerings based on the little 308 case then throw in a 416 _ _ _ _ (fill in the blanks) he would pretty much be ready for anything that walks, crawls, or slithers his way

glock23carry:

You are using the wrong powders for the bullet weights. For following bullet weights use one the following not necessarily in the order listed;

125 gr. Win. 748, IMR 3031

150 gr. bullets: N540, IMR 4064, or Varget

165 gr. bullets: IMR 4064,RL 15, or N550

Primers: Federal 210 or 210M
CCI BR2
WLR

If your 308 wont shoot with one of the those powders with the bullet weights listed that rifle has an issue that needs looked at. And remember primers can make a big difference.

Shoot Safe, Shoot Straight.......RiverRat

[ 08-29-2003, 07:41: Message edited by: RiverRat ]

While I normally used 165gr. bullets in the 308, once I wanted a 150gr. hunting bullet that would hit the same place as military ball in paramilitary semi-autos so I could plink and hunt with the same sight settings. I had a bunch of Nosler Solid Base 150gr. bullets on hand.
The load that worked the best was 42gr. of IMR 3031. I killed several deer with this load and it worked real good. Pick the 150grain bullet of your choice, start at 40gr. and work up.

The best thing about the .308 Win for me, is the $79.95 (plus tax) Ishapore I bought that shoots it. Took off the hardware and cut the stock off with a hacksaw, and I have a terrific little shooter. Iron sights, to boot, that shoot point of aim with the green box 150gr. soft points I buy from Wal-Mart.

Talk about your cheap bastard hunting rifle.

I just finished my first bubba-ized VZ-24. I put a Lother-Walters and chambered it in a 308. I love my magnums, but this is turning out to be a fun rifle to shoot. Thanks for the posts.

Tasunkawitko

Could you further explain which bullets you used on which game, especially elk. How did the 180's perform vs. the 165's? Do you have any photo's of recovered bullets or did they all exit?

nitpicking, cj? you are the last person i would have expected that from! perhaps you are not the paragon of ethical behaviour that you want everyone to think you are.

to answer the question, however, i have used 150-grain pills on many deer and one antelope with complete, pass-through success, and have never lost an animal. i made the mistake of taking a shot at a running doe once in high school. she took two shots, and i will never shoot at running game again. for your information, both were complete pass-throughs.

for the 165-grain, i dropped a very large mulie doe in 2001 with a shot that was high above the shoulders. she dropped, but needed a finishing shot. the bullet, while passing through completely, was much more devastating than i would have expected. i am sure that this was because the shot was a much closer shot than i had ever taken and the pill was still going quite fast.

i have never hunted elk, so i have no personal experience in that arena. i can only go by first-hand accounts and what i read. and all of that information has been vey positive. ditto for the 180-grain pill, which i have used a bit in target shooting with excellent accuracy, but never while hunting game.

nice try, but you really must quit following me around and stalking me. people are going to start thinking you have a crush on me! i suggest that if you want to give me a hard time, you do it through PM or email rather than dirtying this board with your personal vendettas. saeed has a good thing here, and i absolutely refuse to play your game which will detract from his hard work.

(edited for grammar, to add the information about 180-grain bullets and to suggest that cj pm me if he wants continue his soap opera)

[ 08-30-2003, 21:58: Message edited by: tasunkawitko ]

Guess I'll jump in here. I've used a .308 of one kind or another since I bought my first one in, IIRC, 1973. I moved from hunting grounds close to sea level to anout 2,000" MSL to hunting grounds in the 7,500 to 9,500' MSL range. Tha 9.5 pound Springfield 03 in 30-06 got to be a bit too heavy to pack around in the higher elevations. Got a good deal on a Remington 660 and after giving it a decent looking Mannlicher style stock, I was good to go. had some doubts about the .308 until I took the first deer with it. Load was a stiff charge of H-335 and the 150 gr. Sierra spitzer flat base. Years later, I went to the 165 gr. Speer Hot-Core and I haven't looked back. The 1560 gr. bullet wrecked too much eating meat to suit me. I have made my two longest shots on deer with the .308. One, with the 150 gr. Sierra was at 427 paces, witnessed. The other, 250 yards laser measured with the 165 gr. Speer. Most of the time, I never recovered a bullet, but I did get one of the Speers. The bullet hit the deer, which was uphill facing me at the 250 yards mentioned. Bullet angled up, hit the spine, breaking ing, angled off and cut three ribs, then continued on coming to a stop against a back leg bone, breaking it. Bullet retained 65 percent of it's original weight. I surely cannot imagine better performance than that from any bullet.
Is the .308 a hunting rifle? Hell yes!
Paul B.

Man, this is getting to be a long threead! To put everything in the proper perspective, it is up the shooter to accurately place his/her round in the right spot to anchor whatever game being shot. Col. Jeff Cooper has whacked numerous four legged critters to fill a landfill. Even though he is famous for his influence in the 376 Steyer, he is definitely wedded to his 308 Scout. His daughters have taken game from moose to either eland or kudu with the round.

This year will mark my 40th season using .308s. I have hunted with this caliber in California, Oregon, Washington, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming and Colorado and managed to kill a few critters along the way. With the way that I approach elk and deer hunting, the .308 has always got the job done for me. CP.

I think I'll stick with the .300 Win. Mag. It'll do all that the .308 Winchester will do plus whole lot more, making it considerably more versatile as a hunting cartridge.

AD

The .308 usually lives in the shadow of it's larger brother, but it is a friendly, easy-to-load-for cartridge that performs well out to the distances most of us have any business shooting game.

There are oodles and gobs of mid-speed powders that work well, and load of good bullets to choose from.

I've killed deer with Big Green factory 150's, 125 Barnes-X's, and 180 Nosler B-Tips. The RP 150 is a bit soft for my taste - it worked great on a broadside lung shot, but it expands so rapidly I don't know if it would penetrate sufficiently on bone or at a bad angle. The 125 Barnes-X bullets (no longer made in this weight) were perfect on the 4 animals I killed with them. They opened rapidly and penetrated deep.

The one animal I took with the B-Tip is the largest buck I've ever seen in the woods and he is looking at me from the wall right this minute.
The bullet jellied the entire left shoulder before wrecking the lungs. Even at .308 speeds it was a bit soft for me. In a single-shot handgun at around 2100 fps or so, it might be a dandy.

I suspect that the 165 Speer flat base, Hornady flat base, and Sierra HP (the hunting HP, not the match bullet) are all great choices for deer in the "standard" category for the .308.

BigIron

From coyotes to mulies the 308 get's the nod from me.

I have a Model 7 Stainless Synthetic that push's 150gr Partitions at 2750fps with 48.5gr of Rx 15 and CCI primers.

The last 8 whitetails I killed with it dropped in their tracks and 7 of those were running. The 150gr 30 cal. Nosler Partiion is perfect for whitetail.

It enters with a caliber sized hole, and is not "distracted" by muscle, cartilage, or bone. It penetrates to and wrecks the vitals and then it exits cleanly with a silver dollar sized hole leaving the whitetail quite dead right were he was when I pulled the trigger....

After killing 63 whitetails, 5 elk, and 3 mulies (many with other cartridges) I've decided that the 308 is the perfect whitetail deer harvester and will suffice for mulies and elk in a pinch (180gr Partition) but I'd rather use my 375H&H for elk and 300WSM for big mulies in case "raking" shots are needed.

For coyotes and other "varmints" it shoots the 125gr Speer TNT and "makes little ones out of big ones" quite nicely but don't expect to "harvest the fur"....

$bob$

allen,
If I remember correctly, you were putting together a .308 for your wife about a year ago or so. How did it turn out?

John, I decided to change gears, scrap the .308 project, and create an elegant 7X57 on a VZ24 action for her. It'll suite her style a whole lot better, I think, but we're a long way from getting that one done. That's fine for the time being, since with two very active teenagers with one getting ready to start college, my wife doesn't have time to hunt right now. If something changes and she can sneak away for a short deer hunt or something, she can always use my .270.

AD

I only recently bought a 308 after nearly 50 years of shooting, a Sako L-57, which I customized. It's an excellent round, seems to have power beyond its raw numbers, very versatile.

Well, it's 38 years and still killing strong. My love affair with the .308 started early on, and hasn't deminished one i ota. Moose to prarie dogs with lots of others thrown in have been more than adequately taken with proper bullet selection and placement. More than 200 head of Big Game and unkown thousands of rounds at targets, a .308 has made this easy. I say to anyone who favors the long actions, "When was the last time you short stroked the action in the heat of passion?" That alone is reason enough to shoot shorty. With a 165 grain premium bullet and a properly developed handload, nothing is impossible. While I have owned and shot everything from a .17 AI Hornet to a .460 Wea Mag, still it's the .308 which I return to most often.