Does anyone know how low the velocity can be for a 7mm or a .308 NBT for reliable expansion on deer?

1600 and you'll be fine.

Mark D

1500 to 1600 is listed by the factory.. and one knows how they are conservative just to keep ahead of the lawyers etc....

The best way is to get out and test them into some waterjugs and into some green wood....

I think they will surprise you... especially if tested next to the all important Partition....

Of course if people got out and tested the low velocity expansion on a lot of bullets, I think they would be pleasantly surprised...

I know I sure have been....

cheers
seafire

bt's problems aren't with low velocity expansion, rather they have aproblem with high velocity explosion

butchloc has said about all you need to say about Ballistic Tips. Personally I think a premium bullet is almost always a better choice even if you loose a small amount of accuracy. To answer your question people tell me the BT opens easily way out there.

Mark

Butch and Mark Y-do you really think the answers you gave are the answers to his question?

Just curious.

Also am curious to what the 2 of you have for actual personal experience with this matter that you're commenting on?

Mark D

I tested the .95 grn bt in a .243 this morning. vel was 3290. I have heard they were accurate but not in my rifle I've never shot any game with them. But did do some penetration tests and there was little difference between them and standard bullets like the hornady 100 grn except for vel.

I've test 165gr/.308 down to 2000fps & would feel ok w/ them @ a bit less. I think 1500fps is optimistic for any significant expansion.

I'm hunting whitetails in the back five acres I have. I'm thinking of downloading some loads with SR 4759 to somewhere between 1800 and 2000 fps. Max range will be 100 yards, but I guess there are some spots it could go farther. That's why I was thinking of using BTs.

Mark D

I suppose those are fair questions. Obviosly from my own personal experience I think the BT is a really marginal bullet. I shot 3 caribou with the 180 BT in an '06 and I guess a half dozen TX whitetails taken with a 7STW and the 150 BT. Yes all the animals died because every shot was a broadside presentation. I only got one exit on all those lung shots. Tome that is not acceptable and indicates some very shallow penetration. I don't think a bullet that won't reach the vitals from most any angle is what I want to hunt with. If that buck of lifetime is walking away I want to be able to shoot him right up the butt if that is the shot that is presented.

My answer to the original question did not address fps as I thought JWK was really asking if the BT would open reliably at long range. I based that answer on my neighbors experience who is a guide, has personally killed over 40 elk and the last 12 with a BT. The BUT here is he is a long range shooter and routinely shoots beyond 400 yards. The BT on those occasions where he is able to make a very deliberate shot has worked for him. He has yet to try a bad angle close range shot with the BT.

You know everything posted here on AR at least to me is only based on individual opinions. My opinions are based on my own years of hunting. If somebody sees something in what I have written that interests them that's great. If not that's fine too. I'm no expert nor have I ever said that I was.

Regards,

Mark

Most people with generalized negative commentary on Ballistic Tips have little or no actual experience and are usually regurgitating bits and pieces of what they may or may not have heard.

Used properly and as the manufacturer recommends, they are one of the finest medium game bullets ever designed. I have used them since the beginning, and they have never let me down. When negative views do arise, they are often the result of someone trying to shoot a deer with a 70 grain, 6mm bullet or one of the .22 caliber offerings. THOSE ARE VARMINT BULLETS, pure and simple.

No, the BTs are not the best bullet for every situation. But for the cerebral hunter, they are one of the best-ever bullets for deer-sized game.

--

As to JWK's question: From personal testing, the 7mm BTs (120, 140 and 150 grain) can be counted on to expand down to around 1600-1625 fps while the .30 caliber offerings (125, 150 and 165 grain) open up with a velocity as low as 1585 fps.

Does the 1500-1600 holder for the larger caliber BTs like 338, 358, and 366? They are said to be tougher...

In my expierence and I have used them a lot in almost every caliber, They perform very well on deer from 1800-2700 Fps. I try to keep them at or below 2800 fps. They exit deer about 85 percent of the tome in this speed range. Use the heavier ones in each caliber for Big Game and the lightest ones for varmits. Good luck. I don't think there is a better bullet at any price for deer hunting. JMO.

I use the 150 BT in my 7 Mag at 3050 fps MV. The only exit wounds I have gotten on whitetails is with neck shots or straight broadside thru the lungs. Shoot a shoulder and the BT isn't gonna exit, but will put the deer down in a hurry. On feral hogs, since all I take are head shots, the BT works like a sledgehammer, and I do get exits on them--even killed two small shoats with one shot--in the eye, out the ear, in the eye and out the side of the head, at about 75 yds. So, yes the BT is a good medium game bullet, but not something I'd try a "Texas Heart Shot" with. And since we are talking about opinions, the THS isn't something I'd do to an animal unless it was already wounded and about to escape--first shot--never.

Has any one here shot the 250gr BT in the 9.3X62, if so what was the load and what was the results? I was thinkin of loading some up for a blackbear hunt this year. Max range would be 150 yards.. Maddog

Here is a link to the very best Bullet Test I've seen in the civilian world. It shows the expansion and retention characteristics of each bullet at various Impact Velocities in regards to other 30cal 180gr bullets. It is a HUGE chart, so it takes a bit of time to download.

The chart is still available for $15 from:
Mr. Gary Sciuchetti
14610 E. Bill Gulch Road
Mead, WA 99021
gsciuchetti@yahoo.com

www.seahook.com/bestbullet.jpg

quote:

Originally posted by MADDOG:
Has any one here shot the 250gr BT in the 9.3X62, if so what was the load and what was the results? I was thinkin of loading some up for a blackbear hunt this year. Max range would be 150 yards.. Maddog

Yes, I've used these quite a bit. I've had very good results with Re15, Varget, Re10x, and H414. Generally I use GM210M primers, but I have had better results with the CCI250s using H414. These bullets are noticeably tougher (that is they penetrate better) than the 232 Norma (bonded). The 270 speer might be an option as well for modest velocities at close to medium ranges. Some claim the 270 is too soft, but not in my experience...

9.3 Thanks for the reply <>< RL-15 seams to burn best in my 9.3X62... Would you care to share your BT loads that you shoot? Grains, vel,etc. Thanks Maddog

In my 308 Win, I got started hunting with NBT bullets when I discovered the amazing accuracy I could achieve with the 168 grain ones. Shooting seated on a short turkey hunting stool and using cross sticks, I can put them 'way out there and still know where they're going to go. I've shot a bunch of them. That said, if you push 'em pretty fast and if you hit a bone, they can fragment. A few years ago, with some of my fairly hot hand loads, I had one frag on a rib. If there is a problem with this bullet, that's it: it's a tad on the fragile side. I have never heard of one not expanding.

quote:

Here is a link to the very best Bullet Test I've seen in the civilian world. It shows the expansion and retention characteristics of each bullet at various Impact Velocities in regards to other 30cal 180gr bullets. It is a HUGE chart, so it takes a bit of time to download.

Be aware that this test was published in 1998 in handloader magazine making it at least 8 years old.The 180gr .308" ballistic tip sold today has a much thicker jacket than the one used in the test,so the ballistic tip results are meaningless when comparing current bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by MADDOG:
9.3 Thanks for the reply <>< RL-15 seams to burn best in my 9.3X62... Would you care to share your BT loads that you shoot? Grains, vel,etc. Thanks Maddog

With Re15 I'd start at about 53 gr. and work up from there. I've worked up to 58 grains in my rifles and had roughly MOA accuracy from them - not a max load (at least in my rifles).

The best accuracy has been with 55 gr. of Re 10x (hottish load) with a GM210 and 66 grains of H414 with CCI250s. Both will hold between 0.5 and 0.75 MOA (depending on the which rifle). Note that the 66 grains of H414 is WAY over the recommended charge in any load book I've read, but I've had no pressure signs. So start perhaps at 58-59 grains of H414 and work up from there.

Also, I seat my bullets long (usually the cann is a good 1/8" past the case mouth).

Sorry no velocities, my chrony took a dump on me a while back and I've yet to buy a replacement...

Anyway, the usual disclaimer applies about loading data: work up slowly...

REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE?........

I can attest to field performance on a 165 grain Ballistic tip in a 30/06 with an MV of 2250 fps...

It took a 650 lb cow elk in Montana, at a running broadside shot at 175 yds... shot just behind the shoulder...

It went 50 yds or so, and dropped....

Bullet put a fist size hole thru the first lung, cut the esophagus in half, turned the bottom half of the far lung into spaghetti, as well as the upper half of the liver and the bullet core was bulged on the far side hide....

The only reason that the load was being carried, is that a 16 yr old nephew forgot the ammo at home.. 150 miles away... and all he grabbed was some 4 yr old reloads... that I had made for him to teach him how to shoot the 30/06 when he was 12... so it was no hunt or use the ammo that we had available....

Fate proved the load is very effective... if it can take a 650lb cow elk at a dead run.. and do that kind of damage.. it can easily take any deer, any where, at any weight any deer ever got to be.....

And the largest weight deer ever taken was 425 lbs on the hoof, and was shot in Stearns County Minnesota.... and was taken with a lever action rifle.. believed to be a 30.30 or a 32 Win Special....

And a ballistic tip is easily superior to any round that would have been shot in a lever action back in the days that that deer was taken...

good luck..
cheers
seafire

JWK,

Easy expansion is the BT's forte. You will be hard pressed to find anything better for that purpose short of a Varmint bullet.

At those velocities it will probably come out looking like something out of a North Fork add.

I have shot whitetail with my .300 mag useing 165 and 180 grain BT's for 15 years with no problems. Shots have been from 50 yards to 350+ Most shots have been broadside but a few of the longer ones have been lest than perfect forward quartering where the bullet entered the neck in front of the shoulder and destroyed the insides dropping the animals in their tracks. The first was 165 grain and it was in the off side hide behind the shoulder. The second was a 180 and I never found it. I also took one buck with 125's out of a .308 but it was a spine shot. I am sold on BT's

Nosler Ballistic Tip bullets; seems like folks either love them, or hate them. We used to get on a permit to legally spotlight deer for a twelve year period, and I have nothing but praise for them, at least 150 grain BT's fired at 7mm Remington Magnum velocities. On at least 350 head of deer, all sizes, from 20 yards out to 350 yards, we have had reliable kills, with good shot placement.Accurate shot placement is the Nosler strong point, and in my experience, Nosler bullets are consistently accurate. Shots closer than 30 yards are too close, and bullets blow up......killing, but with extensive meat damage. If you think you might get a close up shot, use the Nosler partition.

Best regards, Jim

quote:

And the largest weight deer ever taken was 425 lbs on the hoof, and was shot in Stearns County Minnesota.... and was taken with a lever action rifle.. believed to be a 30.30 or a 32 Win Special....

I suggest that you go to the following link and you will find a record of a much heavier deer.


http://mikehanback.blogs.com/bigbuckzone/2006/04/whats_your_heav.html

Montana record for mulie is 453 lbs. Try the accubonds. They shoot like a bt but I can't tell you how well they hold together because they've gone all the way through anything I've hit with them.

I drove a 140 gr Accubond out of my 270WSM end to end through a big Muley last season. It started by breaking his back hip (yes, it was the dreaded Texas heart shot). Bullet stopped in the loose tissue in his throat. Not much in the way of secondary wound channels. Bullet held together great. Accurate as hell.

I second for considering this bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by JWK:
I'm hunting whitetails in the back five acres I have. I'm thinking of downloading some loads with SR 4759 to somewhere between 1800 and 2000 fps. Max range will be 100 yards, but I guess there are some spots it could go farther. That's why I was thinking of using BTs.

I use BTs in 6mm rem (90gr 3,200fps), 6.5x55 (100gr 3,000fps) and 30-06 (165gr 2,800fps) i absolutely love them shooting about 160 of them a year at live deer that die shortly afterwards. My trailing dog is fat and greatly under used...

I have also used them in 7x57 (120gr at 3,000fps)but found the 7mm 120s too soft for 3,000fps giving too large exit wounds on our small deer. I recovered one from a white tail sized fallow buck at 300yards. No shoulder was hit, the bullet was very well expanded (and seperated) on the far side under the skin and had produced a good wound channel. Impact velocity was 2,350fps according to quickTARGET. I also failed to get an exit from a much smaller deer quartering away at 200yards. Impact velocity was 2,550fps.

This is the one BT I haven't absolutely loved - due to it's too great expansion. I think that makes it perfect for your intended use but I would keep it nearer to 2,200fps at the muzzle.

I really like SR4759 for lower recoil/noise hunting loads.

From what I have seen the performance of a Ballistic Tip is about the same as other cup and core bullets that are the same diameter, weight and MV wise.

I am using Accubonds when ever I can now. Why not?

I use NBTs almost exclusively - 120gr 6.5, 140gr 7mm, 115gr 25, 200gr 338, 225gr 358, and 260gr 375. I have never had a failure at distances from 40-400 yds, and I use near max published loads for the above mentioned calibers. True they do considerable damage, even at 400 yds, but I never have to chase any critters. This important because I don't have a tracking dog. Lou

quote:

The 180gr .308" ballistic tip sold today has a much thicker jacket than the one used in the test,so the ballistic tip results are meaningless when comparing current bullets.

They do have pretty thick jackets. If you grind them down for a side profile, they have a jacket almost identical to that of an accubond except not bonded.

JWK,

I've tried them down to around 2400 or a little less and they opened fine.

Shot the 180s into some oak trees at around 2400 or so which would sort of simulate a 300 Mag hit out there a piece. I will tell you they will shoot through a 6" oak sapling w/ a nickle sized exit and bury into the ground.

Good Luck

Reloader

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Mark D

If that buck of lifetime is walking away I want to be able to shoot him right up the butt if that is the shot that is presented.

Regards,

Mark

Nice to see that even our outfitters are willing to shoot animals in the ass as long as they get their trophy. I guess that goes for their paying clients as well.