I'd like some opinions here. My brother just got back from our taxidermist with his antelope and a SC deer. The antelope is one of the best mounts I've seen. Here's the problem I have though:

I took my antelope at the exact same time but a few months ago, the taxidermist called me and said that when he got the cape back from the tannery it had two white lines down each side of the neck where the hair was gone. Both of our capes were taken off the animals at the same time and cooled within 2 hours of the kill. The taxidermist even agreed that they were both in perfect condition.

According to the taxidermist, the cape was perfect when it went to the tannery, and the hairloss appears to be in a perfect line as though a fold mark.

Needless to say, I didn't get an antelope back because I'm "capeless." The taxidermist didn't offer to get me a new one and didn't mention anything other than ME getting a new one when I was out on my most recent trip early last month.

I did bring back yet another cape I got from a butcher, only to find out it had a bullet hole in the neck. So I don't want that one either.

I know crap happens and it was beyond the tax. control that the tannery screwed up my cape. BUT, I don't think it should be my responsibility to get yet another one at my expense. I think the tannery owes me a new perfect cape, equal to the one they screwed up. I'm on very good terms with my taxidermist and I'm not sure how to approach this, since I don't think the tannery will get me another cape.

My brother did retrieve my skull cap and prongs tonight, and I thought about sending them to WY to the same guy who has my antelope from this year. I can buy another cape from him for $20, but if he does the work, it's only $10 and he guarantees it will be a 15-16" cape that is flawless. PLUS, he is almost $100 cheaper, but it will cost $70 to crate and ship.

Thoughts?

Make a claim with the tannery.

A lot of tanneries have big disclaimers saying they are not responsible for damage..You could call them, but I would deal with the guy out here..Capes are easy to get, I didn't save either of the capes from my goats, or the mulie buck but My buddy always saves his and sells them though.

if he's worth putting on the wall,send him to wy.one's worth putting "on the wall" are a gift. sometimes they cost alittle more (blood sweat,tears,,,,,,,,,money)
in 10 more years and 10 more antelope you will point at him and say "thats the one i got w/ my brother",not "thats the one the tannery screwed up"

Hey Elkman, start saving your capes if it's not too much trouble, I'll buy them all, so long as they don't have bullet holes in the neck. Buck antelope that is, not Does.

Same with mulie.

The taxidermist should stand the cost of replacement. He uses that tannery and they screwed up. My taxidermist has it happen with my capes two times, and he replaced both capes. I will use no one else becuase of the way he stands behind all of his work. My son also lost a bison cape that this taxidermist had sent in, it was lost, my taxidermist mounted another head free of charge for him for the loss. Best way to deal with it, find another taxidermist and tell others.

You brought the cape to the taxidermist in perfect shape, you should expect it back in the same.

What happens to it in between is the responsibility of the taxidermist. While I understand that he didn't cause the problem, he should at a minimum be able to explain that he gave the tannery "holy hell" about their poor job. It should not be your responsibility to take it up with the tannery. I think that's just good business, but others may think differently.

In the end, he should have made you feel at least a little better about the situation, though if the tannery isn't willing to get you another hide then you're still short one hide.

I'm a great believer in "you get what you pay for", so if you trust your taxidermist to do his part I'd stick with him after blowing a little steam off about his handling of the situation.

Good luck.

Doc, the question is one of ethics, and I am sure there will be those who are going to be disappointed however it resolves. The outsiders opinion is that the taxidermist is who you entrusted your cape to, and he obviousily in turn entrusted it to the tannery. He should have resolved this issue with the tannery upon the capes return. He, the taxidermist, is the one to whom you must make a complaint. Though he may be fault or blameless, it remains his professional responsibility ne liability. As a small businessman he may well take the position that he only charges for the work he does, but that ethically would not resolve him from protecting your property by all means. Just an opinion, like anuses, we all have at least one!

I called the taxidermist tonight after I posted this. His wife answered as he is already in bed, sick.

I explained to her in a kind manner that I believe I have done my part in supplying 2 capes so far, even though the second one was a crap cape, I didn't know because it was frozen.

I told her to talk with her husband tomorrow about what to do as I feel it is now the responsibility of the tannery to get me a new cape in excellent condition. I was firm that I wanted a new cape and that I'm not going to supply it.

She agreed with me. I told her that if the tannery folks were decent, honest people, that they should gladly get me a new cape. I'll even give them the guy's name and number in WY and they can order it straight from him if they choose, heck it's only $20.

I was "laying down the foundation" so to speak towards the tannery even though the 'hidden' message included the taxidermist. If he will do the right thing and get me a new cape, I'll continue to use him. If he and the tannery will not, then I won't use them anymore and I'll tell them why.

Most taxidermists out here buy capes from every one that has one to sell, they pay 1/2 the cost of the license in cash, or full license cost for credit. Then when you have an animal to mount you can apply your cape credit or credits.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:
... If he will do the right thing and get me a new cape, I'll continue to use him. If he and the tannery will not, then I won't use them anymore ...

Hey Doc, Darn shame about the minor issue with the Cape, but that is just the way it goes at times.

Perhaps he could make a European Style Mount if you saved the entire skull. Then you could look at it as you get my age and laugh about what happened to the original Cape.

Nothing at all wrong with getting it the way you want it. But it just can't be the same "without" the original Cape.

I disagree here. If the cape was in good condition when it was brought in it will most likely come back from the tannery in good condition. If for any reason there is a problem with the tannery the Taxidermist should not be held responsible. Hell for $20.00 I would just get another one and have the Taxidermist tan it himself. I have had over 50 mounts done with my taxidermist and never had a problem, but then again I know when I brought my capes in that they were in great condition. Also my taxidermist tans a lot of his own hides except African, exotic, bear and real big animals.

Just remember shit happens.

if i had a nickel for every cape that the tannery screwed up I could retire. Good luck getting anything out of them, they have a book full of excuses that's just about a big and the governments.

Doc, I'd ship the skull cap to WY and have the guy that's doing your other buck do it. Sounds like you'll be at around the same price and you'll have two mounts of equal quality.

Good Luck

Reloader

Reloader, I'm leaning that way strongly. The guy in WY does excellent work as well. I will wait til tonight and see what my guy in Indiana says.

Doc, if this is a tannery your taxidermist regularly uses then I think he could and should straighten the matter out for you.

They would be more apt to make things right if they thought they were to jeoperdise a loyal customer. Besides, you left the cape in his care, correct?

Good luck with the tannery. Nothing will happen as you are not the customer of the tannery. If you taxidermist won't make it right, go to the other guy in Wyoming. There are hundreds of good taxidermists out there. However, they do not make a lot of money for the hours they work, so you get what you pay for.

Good luck.

erict, I'm with you; should be between the taxidermist and the tanner with the hunter out of the loop. It's so typical of the overwhelming majority of people in business these days to pass the buck and not accept any responsibility for mistakes made; I own a construction company that has been around for 50 years, due in large part to our reputation for standing behind our work. Everyone makes mistakes both personal and business, but it's how we react to them that separates us. If something goes wrong with a customer and you make it right, immediately and with no questions asked, you'll have a customer for life guaranteed....

Regards,
Craig Nolan

I tend to agree with Craig. The problem should be delt with by the Taxidermist and the tannery. IMO the taxidermist is dropping the ball on this one. I'll also second the "customer service" comment made by Craig

However, as noted above, if the tannery has a "disclaimer" or whatever you call it, they have a legal (though maybe not legitimate) excuse for ruining the cape. Good luck.

You,ve been screwed, my friend. All you can do now, is lidigate. Just remember the hunt, and go on to future hunts. Just pass by this prick,advertise your experiance, and go on to more hunts.
I've been fucked a time or two in Montana on taxidermy, but will always remember the hunt....Thats what counts. Good Hunting

Guess you're right. I just spoke with the taxidermist and to make a long story short, the tannery will not get me a new cape. The taxidermist didn't offer to get one either, so I told him I will no longer bring him business, and I told him why.

I spoke with 3 other taxidermists today and all 3 stated that in this situation, they'd replace the cape at their cost.

So, He still has a mulie, an elk, and my black bear, but those are the last animals he'll see from me.

Having owned a full time taxidermy shop for several years I guess I'll jump in here . . . but I'm not sure it will be well received.

As a general rule tanneries will not replace capes unless the sender (usually a taxidermist) is a VERY good customer whom they don't want to lose, or it is VERY obvious that it was the tannery's screwup (i.e. many holes cut in it that are obviously from the shaving wheel). They make sure their customers know up front that they are not responsible for the final condition of the hides.

In their defense, a hide is an organic thing that can be affected by many factors that can't be easily seen. For instance, if "Bubba" puts a dead deer in his pickup truck and drives it over three counties to show everybody for three days before taking it to the taxidermist, the cape may seem OK when the taxidermist gets it but when the tannery chemicals go into it the hair can slip. Any taxidermist who has worked on them will tell you that pronghorn are one of the worst animals to slip hair - even when everything is done correctly.

Or, the animal could have been sick (even not apparently) which can cause hair slippage. Or, the hunter (or "knowledgeable" outfitter) could have improperly salted the hide in the field - or even used the wrong salt. Iodized salt can affect the ph level of the tanning chemicals. And, yes, even the taxidermist could have done something wrong to cause the slippage. Nevertheless, the tannery will usually not replace a hide. (I lost an entire shipment of African hides by choosing to send them to Kwiktan in Jo'berg to be tanned instead of sending them to the US as salted hides. The tanning was horrible and the capes were unusable. They are still piled in the corner of my workshop because I can't yet throw them out!)

Usually, a taxidermist will take the same position as the tannery and not guarantee the tanning. On my work orders this was clearly stated and I took the time to explain it to the client before they signed the dotted line. Rarely did anything go wrong with the cape but when it did, I would try to help the client as much as I could. If it were a local deer cape that I could easily replace I would replace it without charge. If, however, it was a cape that was expensive to replace, such as from a 300+lb Canada whitetail (and I'm in Texas), I would usually help the client replace it at my cost.

Over doing business for several years I never had an issue with the occasional hide being bad. I believe it was because I communicated the situation prior to taking the job and made sure that the client understood everything fully.

Also from the business point of view, I would be less likely to try to help a client if they were a complete a$$%&)e about the issue. Doc, from your posts, I don't see you fitting that criteria.

I hope everything works out for you! Good luck!

JDs

I was very kind to my taxidermist and his spouse on the phone. I just thought that when I told him I could get another cape at a cost of $20, he'd offer to cover that since he's done over $8000 in work for me, not including the 30+ other game animals he's received from my referrals in the last year.

Doc,

It often pays to be straight forward rather than beat around the bush.

Did you come right out in plain talk and say something such as, "I can get a replacement cape for $20, so how's about taking that amount off of my final bill and you can keep my future business?"

Also, is that an already tanned hide for $20 or one that will have that additional expense tacked on? I'm guessing the latter, and if so, that is another thing to litigate with the taxidermist if he brings it up.

Curious: Had you frozen the hide that was ruined before you gave it to the taxidermist?

BTW, bullet holes are a non-issue if your taxideremist is good. Mine just returned a friend's tahr from NZ to me so he can pick it up at my house when he comes to Phx from SLC. He had literally shot the entire right eye and everything around it away, which left a gaping hole. And when the tahr fell off a rocky cliff, a big chunk of nose and flesh were gouged out. Neither of the two is visible, even on close inspection.

Troy -- my friend who owns the tahr -- was here last week (flying) and stopped by to see the tahr and his red stag. He had been very concerned about using the shot-up tahr cape but was elated at the results. -TONY

quote:

Originally posted by Outdoor Writer:

Did you come right out in plain talk and say something such as, "I can get a replacement cape for $20, so how's about taking that amount off of my final bill and you can keep my future business?"

No. But I did make it clear that I've done my part by supplying two capes already, and that I still wanted the antelope mounted and I shouldn't have to bear the expense of another cape.

quote:

Also, is that an already tanned hide for $20 or one that will have that additional expense tacked on? I'm guessing the latter, and if so, that is another thing to litigate with the taxidermist if he brings it up.

Definitely not. That is the bare bones price on the cape itself. A good tanned hide would cost around $150. However, if I get the cape, frozen/green, the cost of tanning is roughly $40.

quote:

Curious: Had you frozen the hide that was ruined before you gave it to the taxidermist?

The cape was removed from the animal within 35 minutes of it dropping to the shot. The butcher removed the cape from the skull, rolled the cape and froze it. The same has occurred with my other antelope, and the ones my brother and friend shot and those were all mounted without incident.

quote:

BTW, bullet holes are a non-issue if your taxideremist is good. -TONY

I respectfully disagree. They CAN be an issue depending on species, type of hair, and location of bullet hole, size of exit/entrance holes, etc. Especially on antelope. The guy I've been using has, like many, won many competitions in Springfield, Ill. I'm very choosy regarding who does my work. I've seen some very good "attempts" to cover bullet holes but to me they were still noticeable.

But you are correct regarding some instances where holes can be hidden. My experience with antelope is that their hair is just to fragile.

Regardless, I've already decided to send the skull cap and prongs to WY and let the guy out there do it. My cost will be $10 for the cape since he's doing the mount, $495 for shoulder mount, plus $70 to crate and ship. Plus he stated that he'd bump it up with my 2006 goat he already has and get them done at the same time.

We spoke last evening, and I'm sending him the prongs/cap Monday. I already told him I'd like it to fit on the Research Manikin by Mike Frazier, the "Heavy Face-Oregon" style. That is a cape that is 8" eye to nose, and 16" neck. He said he can do that easily.

Doc,

Sounds as if you have it all worked out. Good show. -TONY

I got on here a little late in this discussion, but I see several problems at hand in the discussion.

I've been a taxidermist for over 48 years now and I'm currently on the board of the National Taxidermy Association (not that it means anything because we have our own fair amount of jerks there as well, just as a explanation) What I see here, sadly, is a failure to communicate.

Doc, it seems you're well versed from a laymans standpoint at least. You know the form you want and you are wise enough to admit that some "shots" can't be repaired. If you want to set me or any other taxidermist off, the only thing you need to say is "Oh well, a good taxidermist can fix it." Now why would MY abilities be brought into question by YOUR lack of ability to do the job right to begin with?

Back on point, the prong. Doc, as you said, speedgoats are some of the worst nightmares in handling to begin with. You can pull a bald spot on a LIVE pronghorn so you can imagine what a dead one can do. Secondly, every professional taxidermist I know has a disclaimer on his or her contract stating that we are NOT responsible for what happens to a hide during tanning. (That's pretty definitive.) Not only that, all the GOOD tanneries out there ALSO have the same disclaimer.

A live animal donates a "green hide". You have no idea how many times I've heard over the years, "Well, me and my guide did it right. You must've done something to make that happen." Horsecrap.

There are so many variables in dealing with a raw hide that most hunters haven't a clue. Blood inside the hide on the skin side or meat left there will spoil very very quickly and when it does, the hair is GOING to fall out. Now I know you had to transport that hide from point 'A' to the taxidermist. How can you guarantee that it didn't happen when you weren't watching?

Up until about 10 years ago, NO TANNERY would accept pronghorn capes. The reason was what you've experienced. From the salting/shipping aspect before the tannery rehydrated it and began to pickle it, too many variables were in play for them to put up with the customer gripes. To this day, I don't send prongs out to be commercially tanned but rather do them with a shop tan myself because of that. Being on the east coast, you can imagine I just can't go down to the state forest and shoot a replacement when the hide "slips".

Doc, you're also under a BIG misconception about tanning. You stated that you got a green hide for $20. That's exceptional as the cheapest I've found run me $100 to $150. Then when I have it, I still have to flesh, turn, and salt the hide. I consider my time part of the costs here now, remember? THEN I ship it to a tannery, but carriers are also picky. Many won't take hides and those who do want them shipped expediously. On top of that cost, I have to pay insurance (remember the state land story?). Then it gets to the tannery and your price of $40 is about right. HOWEVER, that again, doesn't include the shipping and insurance they charge me for in returning the hide. I'm out another $100 when it's all said and done.

I guess I also don't know why you have a goat out west and brought this one back. If you brought it back to a qualified taxidermist, the $20 you're quibbling over on "principle" was spent in shipping and after return shipping and crating, your principles cost you a fair bit. You state that your current taxidermist had done over $8000 worth of work for you. Now this becomes my NEXT gripe about hunters.

Taxidermy is a labor intensive, exceptionally low return job regardless of what you may think. You drop off a dead deer with slug holes, cut ears and "nicked" hides from skinning. It takes between 20 and 30 hours to convert that glob of hair and hide into something that looks as if it can breathe. Few if any of you ever appreciate that time spent making YOUR mount look good so you can brag about it to your friends. So let's see how much money he'd have "made" off your pronghorn. The Mike Fraiser form is going to run you $32, good Tohickon eyes; $25, earliners;$6, hide paste; $5, Critter Clay; $2, septum;$5 for a cheap one $15 for a good one; hanger;$2, and assortied paints, staples, and conditioners for the hide; $5 PLUS SHIPPING; $20. He's not spent $182 on a pice that he's charging you (hopefully) $450+. So now you subtract JUST SUPPLIES (forget about the overhead of his building, freezers, fleshers, and lights) he's grossed $268. Divide that by the 20 hours minimum he has in your mount and you see he's making a whopping $13.40 an hour. What do YOU make an hour in your job? Realistically, he could work at McDonalds flipping burgers and make that much with overtime, he'd get paid just like clockwork, and never have to replace any hamburger patty he dropped on the floor accidentally.

Yet you want to make an issue over $20. If you get a clogged drain and your plumber comes out, he makes $100 just to come out and $50 and hour OR ANY INCREMENT THEREOF to do a job that takes him 10 minutes. Say he's done $8,000 worth of plumbing work for you and you get a clogged drain. Would you expect HIM to come out for nothing? (You might expect it, but I'd bet the farm he won't.)

So for $20, you not only lost a taxidermist, you actually lost a friend who had looked out for your better interests even if you didn't appreciate it (how much have you "tipped" him over the years). You also invested money in someone out of your state. I probably DID have an extra antelope or two since he lives there, but what did your outfitter cost? If you didn't use an outfitter, what did your NON-resident license and tag hit you up for? I hope your decision was worth the $20.

Doc-quit whining....the way I see it is that you just need to go antelope hunting again next year to get yourself another cape.

Shit happens, not worth losing a good taxidermist over. Heck, I try to give my taxidermist every antelope cape I can since I know how difficult it is to keep one. He appreciates it (since a lot of folks bring him in shitty capes to start with that no taxidermist could fix) and I usually get my work back within a couple of months.

MG

I agree with you on that George. Some guys just don't understand what really goes on once the animal is dropped off. Maybe they think a taxidermy fairy snaps his little fingers and the mount is done.

I know from watching taxidermy get done, that I sure as hell would not want that job.

Doc, if you have a good taxidermist and he has turned out good work, why bitch about $20.00.

Well, I go away hunting for a couple of days and now I'm called a whiner and one who is bitching.

First George, I appreciate your post, you make some good points, but honestly, you didn't tell me anything I didn't already know. And I have absolutely no misconceptions whatsoever with regards to all of the costs involved in tanning.

You probably pay so much for antelope hides because you are in Delaware. I've been receiving taxidermy catalogs for over 10 years now, Van Dyke, Jonas, Research, McKenzie (who now owns Buckeye, Tom Powell Supply, Rayline, Precision, etc.), Joe Coombs, (and yes, years ago I even requested the dreaded Dan Chase catalog-but that was before I knew what a turd he was), and I know exactly what all the materials cost, etc. And I also know exactly what the tannery charges for tanning. FWIW, my tax. charges $525 for an antelope.

If you want the name and number for the taxidermist in WY, PM and I'll be glad to give it to you, maybe you can work out getting capes at a better rate.

Plus, not that you could have known, but the guy I've been using does taxidermy as a "second" job, moreso for hobby, not for the income, and, because he's an artist, like you, and he enjoys it...so he's not in it for the $$...so your whole bit about working flipping burgers is a wash, and not applicable in this case.

You bringing up what a taxidermist earns isn't even part of this equation, let alone, no concern of mine whatsoever. I can't worry about the incomes of all those I do business with, and frankly, if they have a fee, and I pay it, I could care less if they earn $1/hour or $1000/hr. They are the ones that set their fee. If they don't feel like they make enough profit, then that is their failure as a business person. If the market doesn't pay what they think they should earn, then they need to find another business, otherwise, just be satisfied with the profits earned.

As far as me mentioning just how much I've paid this guy in work over the years, it might be a sore spot or get under your skin but honestly that is a very important point to the consumer. If taxidermists don't like to hear that then I say tough crap, go ahead and let it be a GRIPE. That's reality. And it is a wide spread fact of life when it comes to loyalty, that any given service has value, both to the consumer and the merchant, and USUALLY, those 2 values are not equal--the consumer always wants the service or goods for LESS that what the merchant is selling them for. When I spend what I consider a large sum of money at any one location, in a very short time span, then I consider it a factor in my "business relationship." It's MY money, and if I want to bring up just how much I've paid someone because he does exceptional work, and I appreciate his work, then I will. Are we to believe that in all of your years, you've never once thought to yourself, just how much money you've paid for a service or services to a merchant and didn't feel somewhat like you should be appreciated in return to some degree? Especially for referrals? I don't know about you but where I come from, loyal consumers are rewarded for referrals and long term business. For example, I just found another taxidermist who has impressed the heck out of me. His policy is $25 per referral. I think that is nice, and whether he offered it or not, I'd still use him.

You brought up a plumber's service call. I cannot argue that but I have one similar. We paid for a 5 year extended warranty on our furnace. BUT, in order to keep that warranty, every November, we are to call the company and have them inspect the unit, at our cost of a service fee of $75. I referred 9 neighbors and friends to this company in the first 2 years. For my referrals, they waived the last 3 service fees. They didn't have to but the did. And, I didn't ask them to. THAT IS SMART BUSINESS.

Repeat customers, loyal customers, good referring customers, deserve a break now and then. One auto dealer I've purchased from here takes off an additional $100 for each new car you buy and gives you the same for a referral. Another dealer gives free oil changes for the duration of your manufacturers warranty for loyalty/repeat customer. I could go on but I'm sure you get it.

Your argument about just how labor intensive taxidermy is and how much money is earned in profit doesn't really phase me. You chose it, as did all those who do it, so, after a year or so of apprenticeship or the like, you knew what you were getting into. My appreciation is shown GREATLY from multiple referrals equating to thousands in profit. If that isn't a tip, I don't know what is. So I'm going to spin your quote:

quote:

you actually lost a friend who had looked out for your better interests even if you didn't appreciate it

I'd say I was certainly looking out for his better interests too since he's gained so much business from me. And he's lost a friend and one of the best customers he's ever had (his words).

You were bold enough to specifically ask me what I make an hour. That isn't your business, and it was quite rude to even ask. But, it's more than a taxidermist, and for the 10+ years I've kept my nose in the books and in labratories, I think I've earned what I make.

Let me explain my trip to you. I do not pay an outfitter. My nonres trip cost my roughly $600-700 (tag, gas, meals, lodge). The reason I left this last antelope in Wy is because when we dropped off the animal to the butcher, he turned out to be a taxidermist also, and had multiple goats for display. He did exceptional work, so we left this years antelope there. It has always been a hassle to bring them back anyway.

I made an issue over $20, that is correct. But you haven't been in my shoes either. I made great efforts, as always, to get my hide taken care of. AND THEN, had to get a second one that turned out to be a bust. I guess you could say that my taxidermist is making an issue of $20 too, since he didn't offer to cover it. See, that goes both ways now doesn't it? Did you fail to realize that?

I'm sure that there's a possiblity that you've had "issues" over small amounts of money based on principle as well. If not, then you'd be the first I've ever known of that didn't.

Moreover, like I already posted, I spoke with 3 of YOUR peers that said in THIS case, they'd supply a new cape. SO, not all of you guys think alike.

I know there are no guarantees when it comes to these animal skins, and I appreciate the disclaimers. But is it me, or have none of you ever been giving a break for being a loyal, good referring consumer before???

quote:

I hope your decision was worth the $20.

It was, and I have absolutely no regrets. The guy I've been using is now taking roughly 2 years for turn around (just found out)....yes he's very good, but since this is not his primary job, he cannot get work turned around within 12-18 months any longer. I'm not patient enough to wait 2 years for a mount. The 70 mile drive one way, the lengthy turn around, and now this recent cape issue has driven me to move on and find another, which I've done.

And again, that cape issue goes both ways. I hope my taxidermist feels like his lack of offering the $20 was worth losing my business, and all future referrals. You make it look like a one sided story, but in fact, that little $20 dollar decision was made by 2 people, not one. I'm very comfortable with my decision, I hope he is. You know, it costs money to make money now and then.

I honestly appreciate your position as a taxidermist in this case and I certainly see your points as valid and they have merit, but in my situation, I simply disagree with the argument. I can tell you this, if I was the taxidermist in this case and I knew I'd be losing a very good customer, I'd cover that cape cost in a heart beat. If you ask me, this guy has made an incredibly poor decision, and has shown extremely poor judgement IMO.

If I'm labeled as one who is simply bitching or whining, that's fine. To each his own. I started the thread just to get anyone's thoughts, good or bad. Seems to me like that piddly $20 would have been a very small sacrifice to the taxidermist. Maybe he doesn't appreciate my business or referrals.

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:
I agree with you on that George. Some guys just don't understand what really goes on once the animal is dropped off.

This group you refer to does not include me. I've known what the entire procedure is from skinning to finished mount. Learned about 11 years ago, from fox to elk. Dry paste to wet tan.

Doc, I'm glad your back from hunting, but, damn, you should've taken that burr from under your saddle.

You're talking apples and oranges on this one and the only reason I posted to begin with is that the knowledge you DO possess is dangerous. You've passed it along in the vein that it's gospel and the first thing those NOT as educated as you about taxidermy are going to do is get themselves in trouble.

You continue to mention how much you spent with this "hobbiest" while still defending your position of treating him like a second class citizen. Nearly 90% of taxidermists(according to a poll conducted by NSSF) are "part timers" or "hobbiests". As you know (and can see by some of the mounts posted here) they come in all shapes, sizes and talent levels. John Lager of Colorado is a "hobbiest" but he's won the NTA Best All Around Taxidermist 7 years, 6 of them in a row before he was excluded for being on the NTA Board. Again, you speak apples and oranges.

You mention one thing that really made me bristle. You talk down about "your" taxidermist but still left your mount with a guy who has to do butcher work to augment his taxidermy business. Most of the taxidermists I know don't have enough time to do the work they have and they damned sure don't want the extra hassle of cutting and packing meat. In our business, that's sort of like combining a bait shop with a restaurant to most of us.

I wouldn't want ANY hunter to feel forced into using ANYONE he or she didn't have faith in. (Referring back to the pictures here, did you notice that NO ONE said that their taxidermist didn't do 'beautiful' work? Definitely, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.)

So what we have here is a terminal failure for either of us to change our opinions of the actions of the other. In my shop, I charge what (as you quite succinctly described) charge what I consider a fair price for work preformed. I have a disclaimer prominently posted on my price list that states: TANNING/RUG WORK Tanning and rug work are done by commercial businesses outside the shop. "ALL TANNING IS DONE AT THE OWNER'S RISK (in red bold letters)." My prices don't include plaques, panels or dioramas and certainly not replacement hides. And I'm confident enough and arrogant enough that if you told me you were taking your business elsewhere, I'd have given you some phone numbers. Most reputable taxidermists have a one year backlog and there's always someone else waiting at the door to get in as you leave. Taxidermy is a dying art simply because the regular guys out there think that we're backwoods bumpkins who'll give in to haggling. For some reason they think they can spend $3000 on an outfitter for an elk hunt but the TAXIDERMIST is ripping them off when he asks $900 to mount his trophy. Even the car dealers have stopped the practice and I hope the taxidermists wise up to it pretty soon themselves. WalMart doesn't care if you spend $10,000 there, because if you come back, a bottle of water will still cost you a buck.

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Originally posted by Doc:

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:
I agree with you on that George. Some guys just don't understand what really goes on once the animal is dropped off.

This group you refer to does not include me. I've known what the entire procedure is from skinning to finished mount. Learned about 11 years ago, from fox to elk. Dry paste to wet tan.

Doc, my statement was a blanket statement, it was not intended or directed at you personally.

George, outstanding post! Thanks for taking the time.

Dealing with customers is often very tricky for me. I've given a lot of work away just to make sure a customer didn't go off bad-mouthing my work when he really had no reason to, but wasn't smart enough to know it. I think this thread is a great example of why I do that once in a while. Of course, next time those folks call me I'm "too busy" to take their work. I need to learn how to tell when they come into the shop whether or not to take their business.

quote:

Originally posted by george roof:
You continue to mention how much you spent with this "hobbiest" while still defending your position of treating him like a second class citizen.

Whoa Wo Wo, wait a minute. I NEVER treat anyone EVER like a second class citizen. I don't know where you got that. I have nothing but respect for the taxidermist I use. I don't have any burrs under any saddle. My replies weren't done or elicited in such a tone. If it came across that way, I apologize.

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You mention one thing that really made me bristle. You talk down about "your" taxidermist but still left your mount with a guy who has to do butcher work to augment his taxidermy business.

Who says he HAS to do butcher work to augment his taxidermy business? I don't know any details of his circumstances and I don't think it's fair for you or me to judge that. What I do know is he has a 10 month turn around, is a full time taxidermist outside of the WY hunting season, and does excellent work. He just closed his butchering shop Friday.

Yes, I referred to the guy I've been using as "my taxidermist" as a figure of speech. Like, "would you like to visit my church?" I know lots of people who still attend a church while out of their home town. Is that some form of betrayal?

I left the antelope in WY this year because I didn't want an increased risk of anything happening to it's hide. What's wrong with that?

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So what we have here is a terminal failure for either of us to change our opinions of the actions of the other.

I do not want you to change your opinion. I already posted that I appreciate your position on this matter. Stated so about the disclaimers also. I just disagree with it in THIS instance. That's all. I wan't trying to change your mind. I'm also not stating that every time a cape is messed up from kill to return from tannery that the taxidermist is responsible. If that was the case, you'd never make good money.

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In my shop, I charge what (as you quite succinctly described) charge what I consider a fair price for work preformed.

Then why did you bother posting all of the details as to just how little taxidermists seem to make? If you believe it to be a fair fee, and your customers are in agreement, I do not recognize why it was ever brought up.

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I have a disclaimer prominently posted on my price list that states: TANNING/RUG WORK Tanning and rug work are done by commercial businesses outside the shop. "ALL TANNING IS DONE AT THE OWNER'S RISK (in red bold letters)."

That's good. In the shop I've been using, there's no such signs.

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And I'm confident enough and arrogant enough that if you told me you were taking your business elsewhere, I'd have given you some phone numbers.

That is good. I prefer confindent, arrogant taxidermists. They typically turn out the best work. You are the type I look for.

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Taxidermy is a dying art simply because the regular guys out there think that we're backwoods bumpkins who'll give in to haggling. For some reason they think they can spend $3000 on an outfitter for an elk hunt but the TAXIDERMIST is ripping them off when he asks $900 to mount his trophy.

Not me. I do not fall into that group at all. In fact, let me tell you just what I think of you guys and your profession. I appreciate it to such a degree, that I've offered for 3 guys to go to Joe Meder's 1 week class which cost around $1500. Plus, I would pay for their hotel, and meals. In return, they'd do 4 deer, or similar, shoulder mounts for me free of labor charge, I'd still buy the manikins, eyes, clay, etc. To date, not one has taken me up on it. And one was my brother-in-law.

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Up until about 10 years ago, NO TANNERY would accept pronghorn capes

That is not true.

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Even the car dealers have stopped the practice.

Stopped what? Price haggling? Not true. Only certain manufacturers, like Scion, sell cars at MSRP. This is a division of Toyota, and the marketing dept. decided they needed a car in which there would be no haggling, thus, you have the xA, xB, and tC.

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WalMart doesn't care if you spend $10,000 there, because if you come back, a bottle of water will still cost you a buck.

This is more of an apples to oranges comparison. Wal Mart is a multi Billion dollar corporation, with millions of consumers.

WalMart is not some small business, usually a sole proprietor, who, IMO, should be concerned about keeping one of his best customers happy.

Like I said, we both made a decision, and to my knowledge, there's no ill will, especially on my part. I still think of the guy as a friend. And I'm sure he's got 10 good customers waiting to bring him business. I won't be missed I'm sure.

quote:

Originally posted by Toomany Tools:
Dealing with customers is often very tricky for me. I've given a lot of work away just to make sure a customer didn't go off bad-mouthing my work when he really had no reason to, but wasn't smart enough to know it. I think this thread is a great example of why I do that once in a while. Of course, next time those folks call me I'm "too busy" to take their work. I need to learn how to tell when they come into the shop whether or not to take their business.

Why on earth would you give away work if there was no reason to?

Ask them some very specific questions.

What are their expectations on the mount? Would they like a standard, commercial grade mount or more along the lines of a competition mount? Explain the differences. What kind of turn around time do they expect? If it is a deer, are they getting it mounted "only to look at the rack?" If so, they probably could care less about the quality of the work. How do they want the ears? Do they understand the different poses, sneak, semi-sneak, upright, pedestal, etc.? Are they picky? Do they know what the variable tear ducts should look like? Do they know the difference between a sculpted nictitating membrane and one offered in a supply catalog? Do they want a nasal septum? If so, how detailed? Something simple like a cut piece of milk carton inserted and painted pink, or do they want veins and arteries? Do they know the difference between bondo in the ears or earliners? Do you have mounts displayed for viewing so they can see if they like your work?

Honestly, it's really difficult to weed out what might be a potential problem customer. If they call your shop and the first question is "what do you charge for...." Then that is a person who is concerned about money and not quality.

My questions are

"How long have you been doing this?"
"Have you had any professional training?"
"Have you entered any mounts in any shows?"
"Do you use dry paste or do you tan the hides?"
"Do you have any work that I may view?"
"Do you have any manikin preferences, Jonus, McKenzie, Research?"
"What do you charge for a competition quality mount and what is the turn around time on it?"

I have a friend in Columbus that uses a taxidermist near there. He is satisfied with the work. I personally wouldn't hang it on my wall. The taxidermist used too much clay to sculp the upper brow and eyelid, didn't do a good job of sculpting the ear butts, used bondo in the ears, didn't paint them, and from the heat, there is moderate hairloss in the ears.

When I re-read my post I realized I'd exagerated a bit, unintentionally. I haven't given away "a lot" of work, but I have given away some. You ask "why on earth" I'd do that? Well, say I'd been you're taxidermist instead and I'd given away to you a $20 cape you wouldn't be asking the whole world about my business pratices and I might have just kept you as a customer. You say you've done a lot of business with him in the past so I'd see the $20 as an investment in future business.

Being right isn't always the most important thing and of course what is "right" depends on your perspective.

Doc,
You seem like a standup guy and I almost feel as if I'm shooting the messenger in replying to you.

Taxidermy, as YOU know, is labor intensive with little hope of making a fortune simply because it is, at best, a "cottage" industry. The only difference between us and undertakers is that the undertakers have a union where they all charge the same price, prey on our sympathies, and don't budge on their profit margin. Taxidermists would charge less any day just to take a customer away from the "guy across town". It's a mindset that I and some others have worked a lifetime to eliminate. (It ain't working yet, either. LOL).

The guy with the butcher shop and the taxidermy shop together IS something I know about, and -trust me- if he's butchering, he's rubbing nickles to make dimes. I honestly don't know how any "one man" operation can survive, solely on taxidermy income. The market simply won't bear the strain of premium pricing for the reason I gave you above. Taxidermists are their own worst enemies. If we catered to customers like you who knew what they wanted and insisted on premium work for honest wages, they'd get rid of the window shoppers they get saturated with. If I had a dime for every guy who screamed when I quote him a price over the phone, I'd be rich. The guy who own the local CBS TV outlet here brought a duck in last year. I told him $225. He said, "MAN, I recall when I only paid $25 for a duck." I told him I remembered when I did them for $10, there wasn't any TV stations locally, and gas was 15 cents a gallon, but those days were history. He got the message.

I liked the questions you asked and I wish more people would do that. I would caution you a bit on your last one. Contrary to what anyone tells you, they don't do "competition" work on commercial mounts. A quality competition piece is going to have from 100 to 400 hours put into it. In that time, I can mount a couple dozen pieces, so I don't make that part of my advertising. No one gets "expedited" service. I can't be bought and paying me a couple hundred bucks over what I ask isn't going to get your mount back quicker. First in- first out. My less well heeled customers actually spend more than the well off guys in that they probably gave up a night out on the town to pay me. From spending my share on the bottom of the food chain, I can appreciate that more than some.

quote:

Originally posted by Toomany Tools:
Being right isn't always the most important thing and of course what is "right" depends on your perspective.

Well, I don't believe there is a "right" or "wrong" here. I'm not trying to be either. My position on this scenario is simply my opinion on how people treat each other. I have done my best to treat others how I like to be treated. You and George have written some very cogent words, however, I don't think it was too much to ask for a little help on this third go around on the goat cape.