Has anyone had any success using 240-300gn bullets at subsonic velocities, for shooting deer?. If so I would love to know how you got on. I'm looking at building a suppressed rifle for shooting deer in the bush (close range) Suppressed hunting rifles are legal here in New Zealand.

Thanks

Yes on subsonic, no on deer. I have two thoughts on the matter, one being that shot placement will be of great significance, and that you might consider using a soft alloy, 1:20 or softer. You may or may not be able to do that with your gun w/o leading, and if not try paper patching if it is compatible with the suppressor.

The latter is where I have some experience using 300 gr dead soft paper patch, both high velocity and low. Expansion will occur due to the alloy even at low velocities, accuracy fell off a bit for me however as below the 700 fps I think obturation suffered. The pic below came from a .44 mag/300 gr PP load with an impact velocity in the range of 1500 fps on a hog. Penetration was about 22-23" thru shoulder, ribs, spine and was recovered under the skin on the offside ham.

6x45fan, I have used the .44 Mag in a Blackhawk at ranges from 15 to 75 yards....kills em dead! No problem. Used the .44 Mag in a Win.94 on 250 to 300# hogs...like one old timer said.." You can eat right up to the hole". Thats very true, the bullet just goes right on through with no damage to the surrounding area. Pigs were at 100 to 125 yards. Hope this helps, smoker

A few seasons back I took a whitetail doe with a .429 240 gr SWC @ 875 fps (4 inch M629 Mtn Gun @ ~30 yards). She staggered around for a few moments after a double lung hit and fell over.

I can attest to a 444 slug, loaded to 1000 fps dropping a good sized deer at 75 yds... the bullet was a 300 grain XTP hornady...

XTPs are designed to open at some fairly low velocities and really penetrate like crazy!

Seafire

You mean a .429" bullet?

Thanks everyone,
I know where I may be able to get my hands on a Ruger 44 lever that has been suppressed, and borrow it for a while. A mate of mine used it once, but commented that he was disapointed with the penetration..... Perhaps his loads were a touch slow, or he was using too light a bullet?. Anyway, I'll see how it goes.

Good hunting

quote:

Originally posted by fgulla:
Seafire

You mean a .429" bullet?

Yup, .429 bore... but out of a 444 Marlin...

Gidday 6x45fan,

Best advise I can give on this is give Robbie Tiffen a ring at Canterbury Gun Works. He is a specialist in suppressing rifles.

I think he would try and talk you into something a little more grunty than a 44 mag (It is only a pistol round).

He has been trying to get me to get my model7 in 260 suppressed as it is a nice short rifle that lends itself to being made a little longer.

I can attest to the effectiveness of his work as a guy in the Rod and Gun club had his Ruger 77 in 223 suppressed. It didn't shoot worth a damn until Robbie got a hold of it. It now shoots moa and sounds like 22.

Unless you already have the 44mag talk to Robbie first.

Another purported advantage is that if you miss an animal the here the supersonic crack of the bullet and the thump of the miss behind them and tend to run toward you and not away as is normal. I can't confirm this personally but I have reports from those who have suppressed rifles.

Happy Hunting

Hamish

quote:

Originally posted by 6x45fan:
...he was disapointed with the penetration..... Perhaps his loads were a touch slow, or he was using too light a bullet?. ...

Hey 6x45fan, It could be due to either things you mentioned, or it could be that the Bullet Design he used was a quick expanding type. If it was a quick expanding design, then a lower velocity would actually help it penetrate deeper.

But, it is better to just use the proper Design in the beginning. A nice Flat Nose or Keith style design on a Hard Cast Gas Checked bullet is extremely difficult to beat if you want an Exit. The Flat Nose transfers a lot of the Kinetic Energy along it's path through the Game, resulting in a lot of internal damage.

If you want the bullet to remain inside the Game, then a Hollow Point (quick expanding) design in the 180gr, 200gr or 240gr weights driven at top velocity will create rapid Bullet expansion and a HUGE Energy transfer that can knock them in the dirt if placed in a shoulder. Just keep the muzzle velocity below about 1100fps and you will be subsonic.

But, if it is fired from a revolver, there will be plenty of noise irregardless of the velocity. Used in a rifle, the 44Mag is an excellent and very efficient Deer cartridge when the proper Bullet is used.

Good hunting and clean 1-shot kills.

.

if you are gonna build a rifle for sub sonic supressed hunting I would suggest a 45 cal the best one I have made was a belted mag "7mm 338 458 300wm" cut off 1.5" 16 in bbl with 500 gr soft point 458 bullets ran about 1050 fps headspaced on the belt and fit in a standard 308 mark 10 mauser with very few modifications the number of bullet powder combo available to you is better plus an additional 200 grains of bullet weight over the 44 settles the velocity deficiency nicely the ctg is called 458 barnes 1.5 I like the 1.75 in case better but im a little different

Back in my Elmer Keith phase, I did it the way nordseta did - hardcast 240-gr. SWC from a 4" Smith at low velocity. The range was greater, but revolver bullets tend to lose less velocity than you'd think, even if they don't have that much to start with. I got a complete pass-through on a small whitetail with a broadside shot.

There is also the issue of the supersonic crack as Hamish mentioned. I know from unfortunate experience that subsonic bullets from a suppressed weapon make a swishing noise as they pass, not a crack. A sudden crack will scare anything. The swish only scares things that know what it is. In any case, it sounds like Hamish has the guy you need to talk to.

ALF, I think the SWC's primary benefit is their flat nose. Jacketed bullets tend to be erratic at low velocity. Often they behave like solids, especially if a hollow point cavity clogs with hair or hide. So it's not the amount of energy, but the rate and mechanism of transfer.


Okie John

.

Ya want a thumper in a short package, google up the 458 Neveske...

cheers
seafire

It has, of course, long been noted that flat point solids do more tissue damage than round nose solids. The latter are reported to seemingly nudge aside tissue instead of crushing it. (Given the speeds involved, I find this surprising, but that is what is reported.) Apparently the flat nose creates pressures high enough to crush tissue over a greater portion of its diameter.

When a soft nose expands, one ends up with something like a round nose, albeit with a much larger diameter. This in turn increases the section over which tissue is crushed, but it also increases the speed at which tissue not crushed is pushed aside. Pushing tissue aside seems to usually be a waste of energy, unless the velocity is so high that the elasticity of the tissue is overcome, ie. the tissue tears.

By not wasting energy pushing aside elastic tissue, the FN solids appear to do a respectable job of wounding while maintaining deep penetration.

At least that how I'd summarize what I've read on the subject...

My wife and I have shot close to 16 deer with 44 Mag S&W handguns and cast bullets. These deer ranged in weight from 80 to 160 lbs. The last 10 of these animals were shot with 280 grain LNFP bullets with initial velocities of 1240 fps (her 8 3/8" barrel) and 1125 fps ( my 6" barrel). None of these animals have traveled over 50 yards after the shot with the last 4 that I shot taking only a couple of steps or dropping at the shot. My last few were shoulder shot but not spinal hits, all were within 75 yards.
As my MV were close to subsonic, I believe your results would be the same with your suppressed round. These were hardcast bullets and none were recovered as all were complete pass throughs.

Well, I gotta say that regardless of bullet construction if you are restricting yourself to a low, subsonic velocity the heavier you make the bullet the better.

USUALLY heavy bullets compromise velocity, but in this case you have a "speed limit", so there is no reason to not make the bullet as heavy as can be stabilized in the firearm being used.

AllanD

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
Well, I gotta say that regardless of bullet construction if you are restricting yourself to a low, subsonic velocity the heavier you make the bullet the better.

USUALLY heavy bullets compromise velocity, but in this case you have a "speed limit", so there is no reason to not make the bullet as heavy as can be stabilized in the firearm being used.

AllanD

There is wisdom here. Just be extra cautious working up the reduced loads. Bullets have been known to NOT exit the muzzle on reduced loads.

Make sure the barrel is clear after every shot.

quote:

Originally posted by TheBigGuy:

quote:

Originally posted by Allan DeGroot:
Well, I gotta say that regardless of bullet construction if you are restricting yourself to a low, subsonic velocity the heavier you make the bullet the better.

USUALLY heavy bullets compromise velocity, but in this case you have a "speed limit", so there is no reason to not make the bullet as heavy as can be stabilized in the firearm being used.

AllanD

There is wisdom here. Just be extra cautious working up the reduced loads. Bullets have been known to NOT exit the muzzle on reduced loads.

Make sure the barrel is clear after every shot.

Yeah, well I'll leave the arguement about bullet shape and construction to others in this case, but with a self exposed "speed limit" of 1050fps or so the heavier bullet will penetrate better.

If the bullet expands the heavier one will STILL penetrate better.

as for "reduced" loads? shouldn't be an issue with any type of non-jacketed slugs and faster propellants.

And for a supressed arm you want to use the fastest propellant that will achieve the desired velocity, this helps assure a "quick burn" and reduces what (without the supressor)
be "muzzle blast" which is what supressors supress....

Faster propellants will complete their entire burn cycle very early in the process.

forget about Alliant2400, IMR4227 and H110
think propellants like Unique, Herco
and mabey BlueDot

If nothing else these propellants will greatly reduce the tendency to "foul" the supressor as compared to slower "magnum" propellants.

AllanD

6X45Fan,

I've shot hogs w/ cast .429 flat noses. They do ok as long as they are soft. A semi jacketed HP is a good choice. Deer are very easy to penetrate and a soft expander at the low velocities your speaking of will give you more internal damage than a flat nose IMO.

Good Luck

Reloader

As satisfactory as a .429 300 @ 1050 will prove have you given any thought to wider (.452-.510) and heavier (325-500 gr) bullets at the same speed? Have you given any thought to trying the 300 Whisper (aka 308/221) or 338 Whisper (338/7mm BR) or are you committed to pistol bullets?

I had thought of the Whisper line of cartridges, but I believe that they are not particularly good killers due to the fact the bullets won't expand, and their low frontal area. They have amazing ballistic performance, but I would like to reliably kill deer as quietly as possible. I have deteriorating hearing already, and I'm only 27!. I would have built something like a suppressed 44mag etc, but am loath lo spend lots of cash on a project that may not work.....

quote:

I had thought of the Whisper line of cartridges, but I believe that they are not particularly good killers due to the fact the bullets won't expand, and their low frontal area.

If I understand the Whisper concept the heavy Matchkings are stable in flight but tumble immediately on contact with "denser media". A 240 gr .308 or 300 gr .338 going sideways has gewgobs of "frontal" area. And at ~1000 fps they'll have the same punch you hope to deliver with pistol bullets of similar weight. The slippery Matchkings surrender velocity at such a miserly rate performance ought to be pretty consistent regardless the range to target. No, I'm not a shill for SSK, but I'd like to play with a Whisper one of these days. Until then I think you ought to try one.

Anyway, you're right, a heavy flatnose pistol bullet is a sure thing. But what about wider pistol bullets? Nothing a 43 can do that a 45 can't do better...

Have to agree with you on wider bullets. I bought one of the very early two-cylinder Ruger single actions in .45 Colt/.45acp. My .45 Colt load consists of a Keith-style 260 grain semi-wadcutter at close to 1100 fps. So far, its killed hogs, a wild goat, and a number of both whitetail and mule deer. If I were going to silence a rifle in this caliber, I'd go to the 300 grain swc.

quote:

Originally posted by 6x45fan:
I had thought of the Whisper line of cartridges, but I believe that they are not particularly good killers due to the fact the bullets won't expand, and their low frontal area. They have amazing ballistic performance, but I would like to reliably kill deer as quietly as possible. I have deteriorating hearing already, and I'm only 27!. I would have built something like a suppressed 44mag etc, but am loath lo spend lots of cash on a project that may not work.....

Well first off well done for attempting to protect your hearing. I have allways worne electronic muffs or plugs but despite the fact my hearing is better than average for my 42year old age I am increasingly bothered by tinnitus.

This has forced me to go the moderated route. My hunting style will not allow the use of heavy subsonic bullets but the crack is not a huge issue for your ears.

My advice would be to moderate a standard short action round such as 308 etc and use a PES custom moderator. This is stainless sleeves over the barrel and has a custom set up that maximises performance and minimises bulk. That said you are looking at 1.5lb extra weight and 6" of extra length. The short action helps and cutting down to 20" makes a huge difference.

My remington 700 stainless 243 with Mcmillan and 19" barrel with PES mod weighs 8.75lbs has an overall length 1" longer than standard and balances about an inch in front of the front action screw. It is a usable quieter tool that with electronic plug helps protect my ears.

If you can afford it and have an action a 6PPC or 6BR (or wildcat variant) will be quite a lot quieter or allow a smaller moderator.

Gidday Guys,

Try this www.guunworks.co.nz then click on suppressors.

Robbie does great work and his prices are right there. They are not expensive. I would think think that if you wacked one on a 308 or a 8x57 303 or other cheap rifle you would have something alot more practical for deer than a 44mag (although they are a lot of fun).


You should be able to do it for around $600 - 700 with an old 303 and have something a lot more versatile. Just a thought.

Happy Hunting

Hamish