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Lots of opinions on high fences voiced over the years here at the ARF. My question is, what is the limit. For example where does a pigeon shoot fall in the ethical debate. How about sitting on a tank dam with a 22lr and shooting turtles??? Turkey shoot anyone? Do we have a pecking order of animal/trophy importance where we impose a set of beliefs for one species and not the next? Someone earlier brought up the point that using a grunt call was an attrachtant. Will you fish with bait? A lure is just artifical bait. It is supossed to be 115* here today, I need good heat of the day entertainment  .Please opine. Perry | ||
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I have been on a number of European tower shoots here in Georgia, where pheasants are released from a tower and shot by (typically) 25 shotgunners who rotate around the perimeter every 10 or so birds. You can't see the tower, and shooting is fast & furious. Usually about 60-70% are hit and retrieved, so it's not exactly a "sure thing." I thoroughly enjoy these shoots. Some years ago I posted about the tower shoots on AR and was flamed to a crisp. I also occasionally go quail hunting here in GA. It is virtually all put-and-take. Loss of habitat, farming methodolgy, and especially the proliferation of predators has all but eradicated wild quail covey hunting. There are a few places left, but very few, and none I could afford. There are many, many quail plantations in Georgia, and I bet not 5% of them are wild quail operations. So, does all that make me unethical? BTW, that's a rhetorical question that I have already answered to my satisfaction, but flame away, if you must. LTC, USA, RET Benefactor Life Member, NRA Member, SCI & DSC Proud son of Texas A&M, Class of 1969 "A man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for?" Robert Browning | |||
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Seems to me that the biggest crime the "anti fence" crowd says about shooting game in an enclosure is that someone called it a hunt. You called it a shoot. No problem there. I shoot pheasant all the time on a game farm. I sometimes call it pheasant hunting, but really its getting some exercise while buying expensive chicken in the off season. I've also at the same game farm, on a light day hunted scratch birds and its been as much work as hunting wild ones. Participated in one live pigeon shoot. Lost my arse in that one. Too many rich dudes with a bit more shotgun skill than me. Its entertainment, not hunting. I don't care. If its legal, and you enjoy it, go ahead. For the folks that get all worked up about some rich bugger who paid for his elk, so what? You know what you did to get yours and he knows what he did to get his. I find it rather amusing to hear all the guys who whine about the SCI trophy medals being bad, yet get upset about a guy "buying" a medal. If you don't care about inches, why do you care if someone buys them? As to the point of some animals being more "worthy" than others, it seems that's what folks here believe- note the number of fellows who get all PO'd about canned lion, but I bet almost all of them have shot farm reared birds at some point. | |||
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I think this is a great question perry. Makes one use his head for something other than a hat rack. The premise that some animals have different values as opposed to others comes to mind. The bragging about taking farm raised animals that are confined in some manner does also. So the discussion/brainstorming begins. I'm relatively new to these forums compared to many of you, so my first encounters with this dilema have been enthusiastic as I have strong feelings on the subject and I'm sure you've seen 'em. First, I do believe in varying value assigned to God's creatures. We happen to be one of them and I assign the highest value to Human life. My feelings during an unbelievably hot prarie dog shoot, pigeon shoot, or Argentina dove shoot are not the same as my feelings on big game. Shooting 100 prarie dogs and shooting 100 deer is not the same ethically speaking IMHO. PETA people would disagree. Secondly, taking big game in man-made confinement as opposed to taking the same big game that is wild and free ranging is not the same. Farm raised animals raised to be a target and product to be sold should not be bragged upon by the buyer. The process surrounding each activity are quite different. One is a hunt and the other does not qualify in my book. Taking an animal that is free to roam where it may is a feat no matter how easy one hunt is and how difficult others are. Luck is a major factor. So is doing your homework scouting. One is called "hunting" and the other should be called "shooting" like the difference between going "fishing" and going "catching". Canned bird hunts vrs. Canned big game enters into the "Value of the animal" category. I have empathy for both "targets". I truly feel sorry for a big game animal raised to be released and shot because I value big game more than birds. Isn't the sense of accomplishment a factor as well? Isn't there more accomplishment in a free range hunt than a canned one. Doesn't success on a free range hunt deserve bragging as opposed to almost a kind of shame for bragging about any canned hunt? Just a start.... | |||
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Perry, It is hotter than a pot of collards here. I consider myself truly blessed w/ the opportunities I have had to hunt. I've hunted South Texas water holes for doves and ducks and shot ALOT of both. I went to Argentina w/ 2 buddies and shot more dove than ever b/4. Are these hunts? Well, the dove hunting in Tx certainly is and sometimes you don't shoot anything. Argentina, well that's more of a shoot. Both are fun, but they are different. As for big game, my thoughts are somewhat different. I killed an elk on a 10,000 acre high fenced ranch. Was it a hunt? Absolutely. I regularly hunt a 1,000 acre "ranch" that is high fenced. Is it a hunt? Every time. I have game cam photos of deer than have never been seen by human eyes. The brush is so think you can't crawl through it in multiple places. Do the animals get to free range ? I think so, contrary to what B & C says. We use feeders. So what ? Just b/c it's high fenced does not mean it's not hunting. As for truly canned hunts where big game is released so chicago big wig can shot it, not hunting and not my cup of tea. I could never get any joy or satisfaction in that case and would never participate in it and it does tell me something a/b a person that then brags a/b the animal he/she shot. Similar situation in the field dog world. I run retrievers in field dog events. I train my own dogs and run them myself. Any titles we receive are due to the hard work we(me and my dogs) put in. Others have pro trainers train and run their dogs and then brag a/b the fact that they have a titled dog. If that floats their boat, so be it, but I don't look at it the same way and could never get any joy or satisfaction from it. | |||
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I look at big game and small game differently, I think. Maybe its because Whitetail deer are not rare anywhere, but some small game is rare in some places. I have no access to wild pheasant or quail here in PA, so its game farm or nothing. Lately, I have gotten more satisfaction from raising my own chickens and trap shooting, so the game farm is out. I don't especially like catching stocked trout either, but there are few wild trout in my part of the state. I don't keep any trout anyway. Jason | |||
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About 10 years ago I had a vendor who had a 1500 acre high fenced ranch. There were a lot of exotics on the ranch and some good Whitetails. We were having lunch one day and he said that he had found a "exotic game marketer" that he could call up and request any kind of exotic, the guy would bring it in a trailer, release it and we could hunt it until we found and shot it. Since I was doing quite a bit of business with him, he asked me what I would like to shoot. It took me about 10 seconds to say a "Black Angus"! It took him about 10 seconds to get a red face and get pissed off. Now I would have gladly shot one of his trophy Whitetail in the 150+ class and been proud to do it. 1500 heavily brushed acres is enough to thoroughly hide quite a few trophy Whitetails. There were 2 bucks that were seen before and after the season but never during. 3 times there was a buck with a drop tine that was photographed with a night-time game cam. It was on 3 different game cams and only once on each, never twice with the same camera. Then he disappeared. A Whitetail is a home body and can be thoroughly "natural" on small acreage even though without fences he may roam considerable distances. OTOH Elk can travel miles overnight to hit a fresh field and I would never hunt a confined Elk on less than ~50,000 acres or so. Antelope have a home range but can run tremendous distances but live in open country so they need a lot of acres so I would put a personal limit of around 40,000 acres or so. Mule deer would depend upon the terrain, West Texas rolling hills 25,000 acres, mountainous timbered Colorado a ranch of 5,000 acres might do. Now this is fenced in limited egress acres and an initial approximation of where I would begin to feel that I would have a larger advantage than without fencing. Birds? Don't really care for some reason. And I will fish with live shrimp but not live croakers, go figure! Sorry for rambling but perry said he was just looking for discussion and hypotheticals. ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
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I've never shot a beef cow and called it hunting, we call it butchering. So If I see corals, and the critters can be rounded up and put in those corrals, then it's not hunting, it butchering. But it may enable some additional people to enjoy one aspect of our sport, and it may take some of the pressure off the wild game. I have no problems with, and actually support pen raised bird hunting. If you live near Denver, and want to hunt pheasant, you basically have 4 choices. Join an expensive club, drive to the Kansas boarder, hope you have some luck opening day (because after that most of the birds will be gone) or enjoy a canned hunt. Canned birds are not trophe's, but they taste good, and do take some of the pressure off the wild birds. Untimatly I believe we as hunters need to look at it through the prisim of what is good for the sport. Does it make more folks want to come join us on wild hunts, or does it just provide PETA an opportunity to bash us in the press. | |||
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There is no real comparison between a wild cockbird and a pen-raised. There is no comparison between a wild bull elk and a pen raised bull elk. There is no comparison between a mature, wild mule deer and a pen raised mule deer. There is no comparison between a wild African Lion and pen raised lion. I have shot enough pen raised birds to know that it is just a shoot. Sure it is a little fun and nice to see the dogs work, but we arn't heading home and posting photos on the net- bragging up our limit of tame, no tail-feathered cock birds. Now a whitetail on a high fenced ranch is not my cup of tea, but I am ok with it if the ranch is a true ranch and not some put and shoot ranch. I'll never hunt one, just because it isn't my style. I guess it comes down to one's own experience. I have ridden my own horses 30 miles into the back country. I have hunted bull elk out of a tent. I have walked miles of Kansas prairie hunting mature whitetails and spent time chasing whitetails in the swamps of Alabama and the cedars of west Texas. I have shot mature mule deer at almost 13,000'. I hunt mature animals where they were born, raised, and spent their entire lives. In their territory. It does not mean I am better than another, just that I can not see the need to kill an animal (non-bird) that is not in its own environment. I do rub shoulders with non-hunters and it seems 99% of the time they are ok with hunting as long as it is fair chase and the animals are used. It seems that the bulk of non-hunter skepticism which I hear is generated by high-fenced problems and the "fuzzy" aspect, ie wolves, cats, etc. Now put me on a waterhole in the desert and give me a couple boxes of shells when the doves are thick..... I'd love to hit Argentina and shoot a 100 birds in a morning and then go see the sites for the rest of the day. | |||
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Someone paid more for him, obviously, silly. ______________________ Hunting: I'd kill to participate. | |||
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The sad part is we have far too many people trying to ram their so called "ethics" down others throats. It really should make no difference how one hunts, as long as he is not breaking any laws. What I do find objectionable is the fact that some animals shot in small compounds are put into the record books, and claimed as "hunting trophies". | |||
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Dear Perry: I have hunted on and off here in Pennsylania and a bit in Colorado for 35 years. My interest is in hunting. The trophy size, etc. at present is irrelevant to me, but that may change after I finally go hunting in Africa. I don't know. My only experience with "pen raised" game, are Pennsylvania Game Commission released pheasants. They are stupid, don't know to roost in trees, and are great fodder for coyotes and other predators. I don't really hunt pheasants anymore in Pennsylania. If someone wants to go to a large or small game ranch with fences, and shoot a specific head of game for a trophy collection, hey, its free enterprise. Just don't ask me to go along, and call it hunting. Although I am a fanatic about tools, firearms and ammunition in this case, its the hunting that turns me on, not the shooting. Thats been the case since I started this adventure in 1975. Sincerely, Chris Bemis | |||
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If this statement is in reference to my posts on the subject matter, I'm not ramming my ethics down anyone's throat. I also don't feel that the pro-shooting confined farm raised animals crowd are trying to ram their ethics down my throat either. Just putting my opinion of the pitiful activity here in words for lively debate! | |||
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Every season I go out to the back yard and hunt a cow or a pig. I do pretty well, too. Sand Creek November 29 1864 | |||
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I believe the difference is the degree of game interaction with humans, size of the enclosed facility, and how it is advertised. If you go with the EXPECTATION of shooting a mature animal, then you are shooting. If you go with the idea that enough hard work on you and your guide's part might get you within range of a wild animal, you are hunting. If you depend on technology to stack the deck in your favor... The analogy of driving down the freeway comes to mind. Speed Limit is 75mph. Do you feel justified "only" driving 80 as opposed to driving 100mph? Or 150? You are breaking the law if you are going 76. As far as legal VS ethical... That's pretty easy. Are you proud to post the detail of your game-harvesting time, or embarrassed? Never shot anything over bait but some coyotes. That was lambing season and it was depredation. Rich DRSS | |||
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While Saeed and I don't agree on everything we are on the same page here. Kinda like the world record elk post here that has been deleeted. If it is legal I will use it and won’t apologize. Your ethics.....well, they are yours not mine. ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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Yes! It is very sad! | |||
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"sad" is exactly right..... but in regards to describing this pathetic activity some call "hunting" posting stories and pictures proudly. Pitiful and pathetic! | |||
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The hunting vs shooting analogy is a good one. I hunt hogs often. I mainly hunt them with a bow. We also shoot them about 3 times a year out of a helo for eradication...not hunting, but tons of fun. Put and take big game is not my style but if someone else wants it more power to them. To me that seems more like shooting. I do a lot of youth hunts with first timers and it is all spot and stalk on a 23,000 acre, low fenced ranch. The guy that sponsors the hunts has a game ranch with zero cover. It is about a 1500 acre park. He asked if I would come to his place and help with hunts and I told him I would not because I felt that is not the way to introduce kids to hunting. He needs animals shot for population control but it is just that, shooting. Shooting turtles in a pond...too much fun! Good explanations on ya'lls thoughts guys. Perry | |||
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And just to clarify, my buddy that has the 1500 acre game park does not consider it hunting. He is also the guy I hunt nilgai with on 90,000 acres, low fenced. he understands fair chase. Perry | |||
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I have my own land to hunt now. Before I bought this land, I used to hunt it and the surrounding land. It seemed I was constantly running into hunters who had wounded and lost a deer. These local guys are known as "woodchucks", tree workers. They also frequently steal stuff, deal drugs, and rip people off. They would always tell me about how they would stay up all night drinking and playing poker then hunt all day. Nothing illegal about that. I could always hear them hunting, blam blam blam blam. Their phiosophy is that if they shoot at a deer they stand a chance of hitting it. So any shot is worth taking, doesn't matter if it is a good shot or not. Nothing illegal about that. Every year I find dead deer in my woods that were wounded on other property. Nothing illegal about that. Sometimes we have to chase down the wounded deer to finish them off. A jaw shot off, gut shots, legs broken. Nothing illegal. Sand Creek November 29 1864 | |||
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Now there's an example of shooters in a free range situation. I have seen more of that in my years than 'real' hunting. I've watched people shoot at deer and never get off their butt to even see if they hit it or try tracking. I have plans to shoot a mgt red stag for my freezer in October. Yep, fenced situation, it's a shoot but meat in my freezer. No opportunity for deer on my property in VT. I like venison. I raise my own chicken and pork and yes, slaughter and butcher them myself. ~Ann   | |||
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Yep, never ceases to amaze me. There is a large percentage of humans who will do whatever they can get away with. What controls them is force and laws. I was in a gunshop the other day. The locals were were looking at the vast number of .22 mag rifles and .22 mag ammo in the store and talking about how great a .22 mag is for shooting deer during squirrel season. The said they had to do that because the deer season is so very short. Let me say that again. Season is short because there are so few deer. Humans response, poach more deer. If it wasn't for the existing laws, they would actually exterminate the deer.
Sand Creek November 29 1864 | |||
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Even worse are the people who like to shoot and just take aim willy-nilley and use NO BACKSTOP and wonder how their bullet ends up killing an innocent person sitting at their dinner table. Or, the idiots who 'sound shoot' so they can get their deer or turkey because they are owed one and end up shooting someone elses or their own kid, friend, dad etc. Yeah, happens all the time here in VT. Sickening. The very reason my own paltry 17 acres of mountain side are posted.... ~Ann | |||
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That is exactly how I feel. I hunted cow eland with my double rifle in south Texas, on a fenced hunt. I would not call it "canned", but it was fenced. It was a hard hunt, done on foot. It was a harder hunt than some "wild" hunts I have done... But it was fun, I had a great time, and I got to take the Eland meat to my freezer. If it had been the World record Bull Eland, it would have still been shot on a fenced hunt, not for the record book IMHO. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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One of the local hunters did something that is not illegal. But I consider it unethical. And he gut shot another hunter in the process. Everybody sat with the wounded hunter and waited for the ambulance as he bled out. He died. The shooter hunted the next season, he still does nothing illegal.Good for him. Sand Creek November 29 1864 | |||
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There is a "Neglegent Hunting Law" in the Carolinas that "my" NRA helped get enacted. If anyone shoots someone while Hunting - the shooter goes to jail. Good for the NRA and good for the Carolinas! | |||
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It would be nice if hunters just didn't do things that are unethical,dangerous, and stupid. But the fact is that laws are needed to control these people. You would think that grown ups with guns wouldn't need a special law to prevent them from accidentally killing innocent people. But I think I have dragged this thread far enough off topic, so I'll give it a rest. Sand Creek November 29 1864 | |||
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I have thought about this Ethics thing a lot,,in all veins of activity.First,I don't think one man can/should tell another what HIS ethics must/should be,that is for that man himself to decide,legalities aside for sake of disccussion.(spl)I have personal knowlege of two men,,one who would never shoot anything with any rifle less powerfull than his '06,nor any but passing birds with a 3" 12.He is a regular workin' class guy,,who spends about $500.00 a year on his hunting around home in the Texas hill country.He holds strictly to His ethics of fair chase sport hunting/shooting,,as defined by others.We both know the next man,,easily in his 80's,but very spry and lively,but desperately poor,,by OTHER peoples definition,,yet he never seems in need of anything.He too lives in the hill country,not far from the other guy.He has a good well with a windmill,a 2 acre stocktank with fish in it,and a oat patch of a little more than an acre,next to the tank,,his stone house sits acoss on the other side of the tank.because he cannot prove who he is,he could not get any kind of assitance,nor would he if he could,,he takes care of himself,,livin' off the land and what he makes off a few angora goats,,those are HIS ethics,,asking nothin' of anyone and makin' sure that nothin' HE does harms his neighbors,HIS ethics.Now the first man thinks this 2nd man is a crimminal because he neither knows or cares about anyone elses Idea of what His ethics ought to be,,and shoots birds on the ground at waters edge,,baits fish to the surface with a handfull of grasshoppers,then shoots them with his ancent 2 1/2 " 410 singleshot,and shoots deer year round in his oat patch or at water,with a singleshot Hornet,,his only huntin' guns.He has a 2nd generation Colt single action in .32/20,,but that is only what he got it for,,protection against crimminals.All the law dogs of whatever stripe know of him and look out for him,,as do his neighbors.All say he is a stellar individual,,and he is,,but guy #1 wants to push HIS idea of what ethics are onto #2. Want to have/join a group,,you can require/submit to,,any code of ethics you wish to have/accept.In other words,if you cannot prove that I am infringing on you/yours,,leave me alone. I only HUNT for SPORT what I will use,,whatever that may be,,but I will SHOOT vermin and such wether I can/will use it or not. and MY ethics are different depending on which I am engaged in at the time. Safety is a whole other matter. Intentional-unintentional neg./carelessness should never be tolerated,,and punishment at which ever level appropriate must fit the circcumstances.(spl) As to the issue of SPORT/FAIR CHASE hunting,,I find it is alot like music in church,,I am there for the same reason as everyone else,,so we must GENERALLY think the same way in that vein,,but I like older hymns and some traditional songs,,the newer stuff not at all,,and sing or not as the music dictates,,but would never quit the church if they didn't stop playin' the newer stuff,,nor have I the right to tell them to,,but that is MY ethic,,and SPORT/FAIR CHASE hunting is the same.If we call ourselves that type of hunter,we accept what the larger membership of this BROTHERHOOD of like mind hunters deem as ETHICAL,,,but NEVER by force,,IT MUST BE VOLUNTARY(spl).  NEVER THE LEAST DEGREE OF LIBERTY IN EXCHANGE FOR THE GREATEST DEGREE OF SECURITY | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting American Big Game Hunting "contained" hunt ethical limit...pigeon shoot
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