Well I know there are many "experts" on this forum that declare that it could not be done - but I did it!
On a 7 day Mule Deer Hunt (just concluded yesterday!) I cleanly harvested a LARGE Mule Deer Buck with one well placed Nosler Ballistic Tip from my Remington 700 Sendero in caliber 270 Winchester!
The 130 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip struck the Mule Deer low in the neck (frontal shot) and ruined the heart/lungs. The BIG Mule Deer Buck dropped and died in its tracks!
The recovered bullet was "mushroomed" to an amazing degree - but the core had seperated and the new weight was 61 grains.
The bullet "mushroomed" (folded back) to a diameter of .688" at the widest point!!!
That is more than doubling in size!
The shot was 140 yards (lasered later) and the very large Deer was walking toward and then standing directly facing me, in a Juniper and Mountain Mahogany thicket.
I knew that that this Buck could and would disappear in another instant and I decided to go through the lower neck to strike the Heart/lung area with this bullet.
This Buck had such a huge body and was so heavy that my partner and I decided to cut the Buck in half and use my frieghter pack frame to pack it over the broken and steep coulee country this Buck lived in to the nearest track we could get the rig to!
The taxidermist aged the buck at 5 1/2 years old and its my heaviest horned Mulie to date!
I was sure thankful to the Hunting Gods for that harvest and that chance at the heavy Buck! In the previous several days I had seen two Bucks at least as trophy worthy as this one but they had both bolted so quickly all I could do was use the binocs to judge them and then they were gone!
This offhand shot is the longest off hand shot I have made on Big Game in decades and I was sure thankful for the mass of the Sendero and steady sight picture provided me for this quick shot! The Butler Creek "elastic type" sling also aided my shot!
Some weeks back, another "expert" from Pennsylvania took umbrage with my use and advocacy of "heavy" Rifles for Big Game Hunting! Well I am sure and sure to the point of certainty that my shot had a MUCH higher rate of success with the heavy Varmint type Sendero Model 700 than it would have with a "light-weight" Big Game Rifle!
How can I be so sure you ask - my Hunting partner had his new Kimber "Montana" light Rifle in 300 WSM along! I later set myself up at the exact spot I had shot the Mulie from with his Rifle and sling set up! That "light" Rifle could not provide me with ANYWHERE NEAR as steady a sight picture as my "heavy" Rifle did! I alternated back and forth from light to heavy three or four times and every time the dry-fire drill told me the more massive Rifle was MUCH steadier to "trigger off" at the chosen aim point!!
I even went so far as to use my friends other Rifle (his back up Rifle - a Colt Ultra-light Model in 300 Win. Mag.) to continue my "test". Once back to camp and with the Deer now hanging I dug out my firends "lightweight" Colt and Lasered off 140 yards to an impromptu aiming point. The Rifles were alternated and AGAIN (as I was certain would be the case!) the more massive Rifle provided a MUCH steadier field of view and aiming point at this range offhand!
In additional contararience, to other "experts" on this forum, my somewhat un-orthodox scope choice on the Sendero proved (ONCE AGAIN!) that "experts" are not always right!
I was using one of my tried and true Leupold 8.5x25x40mm's on this Sendero!
It worked splendidly!
Its eye relief, power and clarity have helped me take many Deer and many Antelope with this combo in the last 4 (now) seasons for these species! Different "experts" have all questioned and decried the eye relief, power, repeatability and clarity of the Leupolds - among other "alleged" short comings!
One forum "expert" this past summer even decried my use of that Leupold because "the reticle would change color and turn blue if pointed in any directional quadrant that contained bright sunlight"! Well the sun was out low in the sky and blazing there at 3,200' elevation and NO detrimental "color changes" entered the scene that day there on the high plains!
As a philosophy of mine I fully endorse the policy of using what works for you! But when folks go beyond that and make sweeping declarations that I know to be false - am I being a bad sport by pointing that out?
My Hunting partner on this trip is a tried and true Magnum lover! He uses Magnums for Deer! I don't argue with him but last year his 300 Winchester Magnum spoke four times to bring one mature Mule Deer to earth at what I guessed to be 300 yards. I made no mention of his "policy" or performance but if HE would have implied my 270 or its Nosler Ballistic Tips (he uses Leupold scopes by the way) were not up to snuff in some way I would have defended them from first hand experience and other observations I have made! Again - I do not believe my rebuttals (defense against) to outrageously negative claims to be unsporting of me in the least. I do not like to see people misled.
So, with my suspect "heavy" and inferior Remington 700 Rifle and my looked down upon "Nosler bullets" and my inferior "Leupold" scope I just two days ago killed ANOTHER head of Big Game (and maybe my best ever Mule Deer ever) with one shot!
Long live Nosler!
Long live Remington!
Long live Leupold!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

A friend of mine just shot a large mule deer with BT's as well. He had similar results. It was a 115 gr 257 bullet at 3150 fps. He shot the deer at 25 yards. It dropped at the shot. The bullet left a 2" entrance hole, and a .257 exit hole. I can only assume that it broke up inside the chest cavity and only the base exited.

VARMINTGUY!!!!!

WHERE ARE YOUR PICTURES!!!!??????

Yeah, no kidding....where are the pics!!??

Nice work VG!

IV

Hey VG, Congratulations on the fine Deer.

It sounds similar to some of the Remingtons I have. And that is indeed a nice scope, but the Objective Lens(40mm) is a bit small for my use.

Doesn't matter though, cause it obviously worked well for you.

I don't see anything wrong with a Ballistic Tip out of a .270 for mule deer because they're built heavier right from the get-go than say a 40gr .224 BT. I wouldn't try to bust through heavy bone with one, but a frontal or broadside shot into the boiler room shouldn't be a problem.

Now let's see some pictures of that bad boy!

Can't argue with your results but I don't need any heavy barreled rifle for the shot you took and a 4x is more scope than necessary for that short of a shot. As to your bullet choice 2 days ago I made a similar shot on a 9 point whitetail though I intentionally shot for the spine starting in the neck and the bullet traveled down the spine and out the shoulder blade on a deer almost facing me from downhill at 125 yards. I am glad I was shooting a Speer 180 grtain Mag tip out of my 30-06. I got excellent penetration and minor meat damage.

Who is it that thinks they are the EXPERT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????????????????????????????

Alas: My camera equipment is the old kind - a Nikon 35mm. The prints are due back tomorrow if the stagecoach is not held up!

Sakoluver: I have ENOUGH expertise to know that I have been using, successfully mind YOU - this set-up for several seasons now! And it seems on the edge of bizzarro world that there are so many cyber-world experts out there (on this forum and others!) who have declared that what I have done with my set-up is next to impossible!
Maybe the irony of that escaped your reading of my post?
By the way Sakoluver I seem to recall some years back the folks at Sako offering heavy barrel Rifles in Big Game calibers - do you remember any such offerings? Or is your area of expertise only in making snide, unsubstantive and immature statements?

Rickt300: I have been searching my Hunting memory banks and simply can not come up with the exact last time I took or made an off hand shot at Big Game!
The last off hand shot that I know for sure that I took was in 1975ish when I shot a huge Black Bear that was coming out of his hole in the ground (this occurred in northern Alberta where the Bears have no mountains to den in and they dig straight down in the ground and make a burrow - this behavior was unbeknowst to me as I investigated this "hole"!). This "offhand" shot was less than 5 feet!
Anyway I always use a rest or support of some kind! A tree, my large day pack or my ever present Harris bi-pods or what ever! Theres always something helping me support my Big Game Rifles - I have not even tried shooting at the range "off hand" in many years and that is an obvious shortcoming of mine! I will do some more off hand shooting practice by next Big Game season for sure!
I will get those prints and try to scan one or have the local drugstore send my negatives off and get the prints put on one of them "new fangled" discs for show and tell here!
Long live Nosler!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VarmintGuy, I eagerly await your photos. Please scan them asap!!!

I posted my mulie and Adam's, AND his brother's.

VarmintGuy,
I also took a good side buck with an "unorthodox" bullet, a 150 gr SST out of my tried and true .308 (had a thread on it in the Reloading room). While it is more of of a sporter model, I would not hesitate to use a heavier barreled rifle.

As my father reminds me, when he was in the Army he had to get used to carring a M1 Garrand every where but the head. A 9 lb rifle is not that bad.

Congrats again!

I too have the same view with heavy rifles. I hunt deer/elk with a Rem M700 VS, 26in barrel in .308 in Idaho. Shoots good with 165gr Speer Hot Core. And I have had Ballistic Tips work just fine, puts meat in the freezer just as good as others...But yes, heavy rifles help "me" shoot better/steadier...

Doc: I saw your photos and they are impressive!
The stagecoach just arrived in Dillon, Montana and I have the old time photos in my possession now - I will get on the scanning detail ASAP!
Right now I am double deep in remounting scopes on two Big Game Rifles.
Both went BO mid season here. I have them both done now all but the bore sighting. Both Rifles have BOSS features or muzzle brakes. One is a Browning A-Bolt in 7mm Remington Magnum with the BOSS and the other is a beautiful Weatherby Fibermark(?) in 338/378 Weatherby Magnum. I am right now bore sighting them the "old fashioned way" by simply clamping them in a "X" type sandbag and aiming the bore at the white rock across the valley and aligning the crosshairs! One of the scopes is a Shepherd type and boy is that weird trying to align the bore and the double set of crosshairs and circles in that one.
Once done I promised to drive them over to the neighbors tonight (52 miles each way) and I am waiting for another hour so the whole delivery trip will be done in prime Big Game and bird viewing time!
Whiplash: It just stands to reason that the human body when trying to get its muscles, joints, bones, flesh and nerves to hold steady and yet squeeze a trigger will be better off with more mass in a Rifle as the above named weak points will embark less movement to a heavy object as compared to a light one!
Will work on pics tomorrow!
NEJack: I will look up your thread later tonight as well. Watch out for twisters my man and congrats on your Buck!
More later
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VarmintGuy:

You need to trade off that puny 270 and get a 300 Win Mag like I use. Just Kidding Congrats on the Mulie I sure wish we had them where I hunt.

My usual Wyoming rifle is a heavy sporter 270 that weighs around 9 pouns loaded and it's weight takes a toll after a days pushing timber but it does shoot well offhand or not. Since I live in Texas and get a lot of hunting in here I use a lot of different rifles. My "doe" rifle is a heavy barreled 22-250 loaded with 60 grain Hornady bullets. This rifle gets carried to the stand and left there until the doe tags are exhausted. Practically all the hog hunting is done with lighter rifles like my 308 or 45-70 which are shot generally off hand at night. When practising (plinking at the river) we almost always shoot offhand because you learn a lot more about how trigger control and follow thru affect your bullets path. The bench is just for sighting in and load testing.

quote:

By the way Sakoluver I seem to recall some years back the folks at Sako offering heavy barrel Rifles in Big Game calibers - do you remember any such offerings? Or is your area of expertise only in making snide, unsubstantive and immature statements

You should know VG. You are the EXPERT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

sakoluver: Then its settled - your area of expertise is only in immature and snide remarks!
Thought so.
Thanks for the valuable contributions.
LOL!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Rickt300: I just tonight ate some filet mignon of Whitetail doe that was killed with a 223!
That wonderful venison is I think the best I have ever eaten - and I, have eaten a lot of venison!
My friend harvested this one about 12 days ago before the rut was starting here. Today we scouted a huge area looking for a mature Whitetail Buck for his eldest daughter to Hunt after she got out of high school.
We had two dandies "located" on land he could Hunt. Unfortunately I could not stay for the Hunt as I had to get by the butcher shop before it closed to retrieve my recently killed Mule Deer Buck.
Nothing beats crop fed Whitetail doe venison!
I think I will have some more Whitetail venison tomorrow night as well!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

no pictures yet? may I ask what the hold up is?

Not exactly, "expert". I've killed a few head of game too with ballistic tips, a few with partitions, I basically like Nosler bullets.
My Sako's are all the older "medium weight" barrels too. I do have a couple or three light weights, they shoot pretty well too.
All your tests prove is that YOU can't hold a light rifle as steady as that cross tie Sendero. Doesn't mean nobody else can't.
Fact of the matter, if an "expert" wants to try hard enough to do something they probably can, even if it's not the smartest thing to do.
If you didn't come off so abrasively in your posts I wouldn't have been baited into posting.
I agree with Allen Day. Have a nice day.

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGuy:
Well I know there are many "experts" on this forum that declare that it could not be done - but I did it!"

Did anyone really say it couldn't be done? If you would like to share the links for those threads, I'd be intersted to read them.

"but the core had seperated and the new weight was 61 grains."

Less than 50% weight retention, is this a good thing?

"One forum "expert" this past summer even decried my use of that Leupold because "the reticle would change color and turn blue if pointed in any directional quadrant that contained bright sunlight"!"

Blue? Maybe bronze. Again I'd love to see that link. As you now though, Leupold reticles will change color as light enters the scope from the rear but many other scopes have this condition as well.

"But when folks go beyond that and make sweeping declarations that I know to be false - am I being a bad sport by pointing that out?"

In a word, YES!! "I know to be false" How? You weren't there. You didn't see what happened. You didn't make the shot. You didn't follow the blood trail that dwindles down to nothing. The point is, you didn't have that experience, and are you so proud as to believe that only your experience counts? That only your experience is valid. It sure sounds that way; you savagely rip those who don't agree with you as inexperienced or ignorant, yet YOU WEREN"T THERE. You don't even know the man. But he can't be right because his experience doesn't fit with your's.

Perhaps you really do need more experience. The more experience I get, the more I find that NOTHING works everytime. But, some tools are better than others. That's why many of us are here, to find out what works best. If you are so proud that don't want the knowledge of others, you will repeat their mistakes.

"Again - I do not believe my rebuttals (defense against) to outrageously negative claims to be unsporting of me in the least. I do not like to see people misled."

People can be and many times will be misled if they listen to only one viewpoint, even your's. The Hebrew King Soloman said "Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety." That's good advise.


"So, with my suspect "heavy" and inferior Remington 700 Rifle and my looked down upon "Nosler bullets" and my inferior "Leupold" scope I just two days ago killed ANOTHER head of Big Game (and maybe my best ever Mule Deer ever) with one shot!"VarmintGuy

I'm glad for your nice deer. The fact of the matter however is that the equipment had very little to do with the success of this shot. The same shot could have been made very nicely with a $79 SKS with a $39 Chinese 4X scope on a saddle mount firing steel cased Russian hollowpoint "hunting style" ammo. Heck if you wanted to step up a bit, why not a Mossberg 500 20ga. slug gun with see through mounts and a $29 blister packed Tasco.

In this case it was all about the nut behind the bolt making a good shot. Congrats.



Gabe

Doc: My 5x7's are alive and well in my possession and I ordered several 9x12's yesterday. The stage should be back with them tomorrow. I will take the negatives to the livery stable and see if they can send them off to have them put on a disc!
I just got back from the butcher shop with the Deer flesh and stopped by my taxidermists shop and brought the horns home!
I am hosting a gang of Hunters here next Monday night for the Monday Night Football Game and show and tell. There will be 7 Hunters in from Washington, Minnesota, Iowa and the far reaches of Montana for a taco, burrito, nacho's and beer fest! The lies... I mean Hunting stories will flow like a mountain stream that day!
My round trip to the butcher and the taxidermist covered 120 miles and the Whitetails are simply mad with rut here (5,200' and lower)!
At high noon today I saw a 140 class Whitetail Buck in the middle of a huge cultivated field chasing a single doe - no cover for 300 yards in any direction!
I will post some pics ASAP!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Sakoluver: I disagree with you immensely! The reason off-hand high power shooters (among many other Rifle competitors!) use heavy Rifles is because of and to take advantage of their mass!
Mass effects everyone the same!
I contend that the accuracy of two Rifles being equal, virtually EVERYONE would shoot the heavier Rifle more accurately under field conditions than a lighter one!
Why do you think I use the heavy Rifle? Its because it is more accurate under field conditions! Sorry if that abrades your thinking but so be it if it does!
Prove me and my contention wrong if you can but you would also have to prove the current laws of physics wrong also!
Pretty big chore even for an expert!
For your information YES the Sako folks did in fact make several heavy barrel Rifles in Big Game calibers in the past for those interested in using "railroad ties" to Hunt or long range shoot with.
I will keep an eye out for the internet "abrasive police" police in the future to be able not to abrade anyones feelings!
NOT! LOL!
Your job, Sakoluver, is to research and find out which Big Game calibers the Sako folks provided heavy barrelled Rifles in! Just something for you to engage in that WOULD be mature AND constructive!
Good luck.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

quote:

Your job, Sakoluver, is to research and find out which Big Game calibers the Sako folks provided heavy barrelled Rifles in! Just something for you to engage in that WOULD be mature AND constructive!

And your job is to be jerk and your very expert at that.

I like NBTs as well - work great for me, including many elk with 180 NBTs shot at high velocity. Critters drop in their tracks!

I also use heavy barreled customs guns - they shoot more consistently and are easier to hold off-hand.

Sakoluver: With each useless and devoid of substance posting you make you prove my point. You are simply snide and bereft of the capability to make mature communications.I would say you are expert at that and that alone.
Why don't you turn over a new leaf?
Dig deep little man, I am sure you can figure out something adult like to add here!
Come on I dare you!
Make a mature and intelligent utterance!
You can do it!
Think positive.
LOL!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I was going to give you the on a job well done with your deer, but after reading several of your posts, I'm giving you a .

Your bullshit is so deep, I would have to chain my truck up just to get out of Montana!

MG

Madgoat: Your lame excuse for a posting didn't even get real a rise out of me or make me grin even.
Didn't your parents teach you no manners down there in Wyoming?
And if you have the over rated opinion of yourself that others MUST cater to your version of whats what then think again and maybe you won't have to buy such a large hat next time you go to the store!
He-he!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

quote:

Originally posted by VarmintGuy:
Madgoat: Your lame excuse for a posting didn't even get real a rise out of me or make me grin even.
Didn't your parents teach you no manners down there in Wyoming?

Wow, a fine example of a back woods education. Was the fourth grade TOO hard for you??
I can't rag on Montana...it is not THEIR fault a troll like yourself decided to pack up ma, pa, and the banjo and move there from where ever it is you're from.
You just don't like anyone pointing out the fact that your ego is larger than Big Sky country!

Go back to stomping on baby chicks you freak.

MG

Still waiting on pictures.

Oh Goody...

Another contest...

$bob$

yes VG pics!!! tikka makes a varmint model in 270 win, it tips the scales around 8#'s I wouldn't mind a little extra weight just not brick like weight of rifles over 10#'s thats why the tikka varmint sounds kewl to me

VG, I guess you have no intentions of posting pictures.

Varmint guy...I too have been in the same dismal boat as you. I actually shot a 6'6" black bear with......get this a



303 british

He dropped in his tracks and moved no more, I think it was death by "headache" as he had a 303 sized hole in his head.


the chef

Madgoat: I am still waiting for an answer to my question!
Didn't your parents teach you any manners?
Its all well and good for you to blather on but I ask for your substance in this matter and all you produce is immature drivel!
Think my ego's to big? How about yourn?
Add something or go play with yourself in the corner like the other ill raised children.
You can't even defend your own actions madgoat - don't try and take on any manly duties like defending a state you don't even live in. Montana is doing just fine without you and needs no defending especially from the ill tempered likes of yourself.
And by the way 64% of the folks living in Montana were not born here (as per the 2,005 interim census!). If the complaint you have is I was born somewhere other than Montana - again I simply point out your silliness and lack of substance.
Apparently you are satisfied with not being able to add anything to an adult conversation?
Give it a try sometime - make your parents proud for a change!
Long live Montana!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I was just over to one of my Hunting partners homes to share photos with (you know the Kodak kind!). He moved to Montana from Utah four years ago. Once here he wanted me to advise him on a good comination Antelope and Coyote Rifle. He had a Weatherby 300 Magnum for Elk and Deer Hunting.
I suggested he buy a Remington Varminter in caliber 243 Winchester! Well he has been thrilled with the Remington 700 VLS in 243 that we bought new from Shedhorn Sports of Ennis, Montana.
Not only did we get him his first Antelope with the "heavy" Rifle but he has killed a nifty Mt. Goat with it along with Coyote and numerous Deer! He has killed 4 Deer already this year with the heavy Varminter and has one more tag to notch!
I asked him why he packs the heavy Rifle - his reply "because I shoot it so well"!
I was with Ron last fall when he killed a dandy 5x6 (not counting the eyeguards!) Mule Deer with this heavy Rifle. His judicious use of a bi-pod and good Nosler bullets in his 243 brought this nifty 3 1/2 year old Mulie to bag - with one shot! Several days ago he shot a rutting Whitetail Buck at relatively long range (300 yards he guesstimated). This Whitetail is going to the same taxidermist that full body mounted his Mt. Goat last year and that did his 5x6 Muley! Anyway the Whitetail Buck was herding his doe out in the middle of a wheat stubble field and Ron got as close as he could get and again - one shot one Buck!
Ron had some trouble this spring while Hunting spring Bear here in Montana though. He was using his 300 Weatherby and came across a Black Bear uphill from him and feeding on green grass shoots. The Bear was only 100 yards away and Ron missed a single shot he took at the "large" Bear with his sporter style 300 Weatherby Magnum. I later helped him recheck the area for blood - none found! Now here is a guy plinking Coyotes, Antelope, Mt. Goat and about 8 Deer with his new, heavy Rifle yet he misses, CLEANLY, a slow walking relatively close "large" Black Bear at 100 yards!
Anyone else see the lesson in this?

Calgarychef!: My good friend Mark just got back from northern Alberta where he and two Hunting companions harvested three Bull Moose in a week of Hunting.
My favorite Alberta Hunting story is this one! I came down with Ghiardeah (sp?) about 3 days into a 6 day Moose Hunt in far norther Alberta. Off we (the guide and my partner) go in the morning with all toilet paper I can carry and the Hunting camp could spare to Hunt Moose. About 4 hours into our ramblings on the level ground the guide stops us and informs us we are lost! The sky is dreadfully overcast with no sense of where the sun is, was or was headed to! The dense alder forest left us no idea where the river was (which ran a particular direction and would aid us finding our way to camp) and we were so far north that compass's didn't work well. We were in a fix.
And I had the incessant diarheah! Well the guide had a plan! We would make a small fire and stay still and warm until late afternoon when the Swans would start showing up in the gray sky! He contended that the Swans would only be flying from north to south and we would scramble for the river once we ascertained north and south!
I was sick with worry and from weakness due to the "Beaver fever"
I was just miserable all afternoon until I heard the first Swans calling! Sure enough the guide got himself oriented and we scrambled for the river as best we could - following the directions given by the unkonwing Swans. We made the river just before it got dark! We heard the shots from the others in camp an hour or two after full dark and those were wonderful sounds as our penlights were all now dimming as we stumbled along beside the river!
Anyway we were late for dinner but did not have to spend the night in "the bush" as you Canadians call it!
Thanks to the Swans.
Long live Alberta!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I have no dog in this fight but I kind of look at it this way.

To me it matters little of where I was born. I really didn't have much of choice in that matter do I? Now I do have a choice of wear I live.

Pounding on someone because of where they were born is akin to pounding on someone because of the color of skin they were born with.

Either way you/I/we have no choice in such matters other that where we choose to live and how we choose to live.

Just a rambling thought or so.

Make it your best day

Mark D

Answers to your question?

Let's see this deer VG. You have been beating your chest for the last week about this big buck you shot with a NBT, where is the darn thing? Does it exist only in your mind? Frankly, I don't give a ratt's ass what you shot, or what you shot it with (hell, grizzly bears have been killed by .22LR), but since you were the one to start this self driven chest beating post to prove all the "non-believers in the ballistic tip" wrong, let's see some photos.

And as far as your statistics are concerned, did you know that 87% of all statistics are 76% inaccurate in 100% of the information that they provide?

Go back to writing your manifesto!

MG