They have done away with the ML300 tags--1300, and are going to add them to the all-ready not all sold every year general elk hunt. So said, it was confusing to alot of people..

It is not really that confusing at all. The DWR did away with the ML300 and made it an over the counter hunt. Next year the Any bull cap will be raised. Now you can decide what weapon you want to hunt with. It may add more ML elk hunters, but the success is low enough to add thousands of extra tags in the future.

I think UT DWR is headed in the right direction for hunter opportunity in elk hunting. More tags, more weapon choice, a working group that is looking into how to hunt elk without the high success rates (ie rifle in Nov). If you don't like it go to the RAC and Wildlife Board meeting and speak your mind. I was at both and saw 1 guy against the change and numerous guys for it.

Caution to what you say buddy. I stopped going cause fo there stupidy on making some of the decisions they have made. Cougar permits-not enough and now some one in the DWR going over what to do with the Wolfes now. Problem is they want more deer and do nothing about it. Have had plenty of chances to buy up land for the aniamals and now there are houses.[[Its all about money]] They took off some of the bigger buck areas such as [[4point or bigger]] Where as now you can see as many as 100-150 does and not even I Buck among them. There are alot of people who have spoke there mind, as to the elk population also. Mind you; there were only 1300-ML300 permits not thousands. One of these days before it gets to late I and others think that there should be a vote as to who runs the DWR, as to what changes they can make, as to estimating the count of this and that. And maybe as to M-Welch getting out of there things might change, especially in the Northern Region. As I can see you mention [[ie rifle]] the over counter is for bulls only Wake UP
As the ML300 which was a drawing for only 1300 permits statewide for either sex with a Muzzle loader During spike only Muzzle loader hunt in early Nov. Now there are to many elk taking over the deer areas, were as there were no ELK BEFORE..

As a former resident of the state, and the son of a man who was once a fisheries biologist for the Utah DWR (so I'm not out to totally bash the DWR here), let me agree with the fact that the hunting there generally sucks. The deer herd must be the most poorly managed in the west. Have you seen the published buck to doe ratios? UNREAL! Utah needs about three or four years of doe only hunting and then needs to implement point restrictions on deer taken. Simple as that! The habitat is certainly there if you are willing to work to get there, it is just a matter of the division and the hunters both having the courage of their convictions.

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek

I was born and raised in Utah. I lived there for 17 long years. Lived another 10 in Arizona. Now reside in Montana. Let's just say I thought Utah's hunting sucked while I lived there, but now that I live in Montana, I KNOW Utah's hunting sucks big time! Been here in MT. for almost 10 years and never once have I wished to return to Utah. The worst day here is better than the best day I ever had in Utah's mountains and that is not an exaggeration.

[ 12-02-2003, 02:20: Message edited by: Big Sky ]

I don't disagree with what has been posted for the most part. The general deer hunting in Utah isn't all that great. I've lived and hunted in New Mexico, Idaho, and Washington, and I don't think it is as bad as some of you would make it sound. Every state has it's issues. I don't agree with everything the DWR does, but I'm too lazy (too busy) to go to meetings to do anything about it. I suspect most Utah hunters are like I am. As long as I have a decent chance at taking an average animal and the tags don't cost a fortune, I'm not too terribly concerned.

I do believe, however, that the elk hunting in Utah is great, and that if one has the chance to draw a limited entry tag for any species, one's odds are good of taking a nice trophy.

Tom, can you explain your reply about Cache Valley? I'm not sure I follow?

Thanks.

MGC...

How's this going to work? Is muzzleloader season for elk going to be at a different time than the rifle hunt? Are we going to just be able to go in and buy a ML elk tag over the counter?

You can blame it all on me.... I just went out and bought a front-stuffer, because I thought the ML300 would be a cool hunt. It follows that they would immediately change the hunt.

Ive lived here since '61. In that time Ive watched deer herds gradually go from very good to shit. Every year our illustrious leaders report to the media what a good harvest it was and how well the herds are doing and every year it sounds more like a blatant lie.

It is all about money. And possibly a reluctance to admit that they dont know how to fix the problem. The people with lots of land have lobbied the DWR into their corner and they, the limited entry units, and other big game are the only ones getting any kind of sensible managment. The rest of the state has gone to hell in a handbasket.

Even some of the best and most enthusastic hunters Ive known have become frusterated to the point of hanging their guns up and forgetting about it. As long as the people keep buying permits, the big money tags will continue to get DWR's attention and the general season areas will get continued negligence.

Our deer herds need winter range, protection from highways and the entire hunt shut down for about two years to regain its population and some good bucks. Then the permit distribution process needs to be revamped. I understand that they may implement micro units this year in an attempt to do just that. They say that "it will give hunters a chance to hunt in some good areas that are underhunted". What a bunch of BS..! All they are doing is forcing limits on the best areas, which is fine. But they should admit it and be accountable.

Let me elaborate on my point which was concerning the ML300 elk hunt in Utah.

The success rate for the ML300 for bulls is so low that harvest of bulls does not impact the herd. Therefore, removing the NEED to draw a tag allows anyone desiring to hunt branch antlered bulls with a muzzleloader to buy a tag and not have to wait to draw. There will no doubt be an increase in any bull permits in 2005 to allow for the hopefull increase in ML intrests. And the hunt will still be in Nov.

AS for other topics in this thread.....
-The Utah Legislature took the funding that the DWR was using to buy winter range away from the DWR in the early '90s. How many Planning Commision and City meetings have you guys been to protesting the development of these ranges?? My guess is NONE! Get off your butts and go oppose the development of these lands.

JohntheGreek-
Our deer herd is 150,000 animals below the Carrying Capacity of the range and YOU want to have Doe only hunts to improve buck:doe ratios?.? I hope you keep your managment practices in AZ.

-The deer herd isn't hurting because of Buckoe ratios. There are substatial bucks to breed the population of doe(s). Most of Utah's units are at the management level for postseason Bucks.

-Mule deer herds across the country are doing poorly. Herds are down every where. Wyoming's deer herd is a pittance of what it used to be just 5 years ago. Montana's buck:doe ratios suck on public lands. Nevada cut tags by 30%.

-We are in a horrible, historical drought. Range conditions are beyond poor in much of the state. This has negativly impacted Utah's deer herd.

Utah's general season hunts are pretty good. I have killed branch antlered bulls on Utah's Gen rifle elk hunt 5 years running. (One 320 class 6x6) I have had the opportunity to shoot 5-20 mature 3 1/2+ yr old bucks each year since 1994. I even passed on a 180" 4x4 this year. All on public land. Moves are being made to allow for more opportunity to hunt Utah's Awesome LTD elk units. Go out and look at some of the deer you could have shot that are now on the winter range.

I like Utah, and it can be better. Just gotta stop bitching on the internet and get invovled.

[ 12-03-2003, 03:38: Message edited by: MGC ]

MGC,

I used to like Utah, not anymore. Particularly the Wasatch front. The greedy politicians who wanted to bring in the masses and boost tax revenues have ruined the quality of life here in more ways than I care to mention. They wanted Utah to become an extension of California and they have become very successfull about it.

You are right about Utah not being the only state with wildlife managment problems, but other neighboring states have done a LOT better job of it for a long time. I have a mule deer article done by John Jobson where he singled out Utah for its questionable managment practices and deteriorating deer herds that was written back in 1977..! Only recently have they began to take this problem seriously, and their efforts still fall way short. The decline continues.

There is one particular place I used to hunt that has become an absoloute travesty. I hunted there recently, perhaps harder than I have ever done before, only to find one doe and two fawns and that area used to fill hundreds of tags every year. Had I hunted like that in years gone by I would have seen several herds and taken my pick of bucks. Your going to have to tell someone else how well the deer herds are doing because I know better. And the last time I got involved with Utahs legislation in any way was when I cast my vote against light rail and you know what happend with that. Do you really think you have a prayer trying to stop development with people like Earl Holding pushing the buttons? If so then I wish you luck, your gonna need it. As for me, I'll just keep bitching on the internet for now and keep working toward a better life, somewhere else..

MGC I don't know where you are seeing all these great deer cause during the rifle hunt I am not seeing um. I have hunted utah 3 deer hunts and they go as follows, first hunt was '01 went out to red cloud loop area in the unitas outside vernal, must have seen 150+ does we had 12 people in our hunting group and not one of us in our whole group even so 1 buck that is right one damn buck. out of all the camps around us at least a dozen or more camps only saw 2 spikes killed, where are the wonderful buck to doe ratios??? '02 hunt was monroe mountain, saw lots of does missed a shot on a nice 3 point and later just a bit too late or I could have shot a spike later that day. after that no more bucks sighted, '03 hunt monroe mountain I did the dedicated hunter program and saw 2-2 point bucks during the ML hunt both running with does. came back to same area for the rifle hunt, saw one really small 2 point and I bagged him, but that was the only buck seen on the hole hunt. So as it stands now the red cloud loop area is dismal buck to do ratio and the monroe area from my experience is about 1-40 buck to do ratio, I agree with JTG we need some big time doe hunting, Maybe if there where less does the ones left would be much healtier and be more likly to have twins and more healthy deer, also I agree that the deer hunt needs to be closed for about 2 years. I do see some big deer in this state but they are on private areas where there is no hunting.

MGC-- pull youre head out of youre ass . The Ml300 was a draw for either sex with muzzle 1300 permits state wide- You could go and buy over the counter muzzle loader elk permits, or even a rifle elk permit. Like mentioned above about the deer buck to doe ratios -you must have wet dreams at nite also. What the hells the drought got to do with it?? Either that or a bad winter kill no bucks to make it either way, still lose. DRW has upped fee's for this and that and nothing has been done with that money as promised- not the state, officals in charge in the DWR. Like I said talk about deer again, this has been the same as every year since they took the 4 point or better off --100-50- does easy, but this year just 1 mile north of there, sage brush- we jumped another 30in one bunch and 40 in another no horns.That DAYS total# was 220 and 3'd day of the hunt. Had let 2 german shepard's with ear lenght 2 points go by me and some else pops them. REAL GOOD HUNT I Have went to the meetings for so long, and even farm owners that want to get rid of few does in there winter wheat fields as we brought up the subject so many here and there and if you got a doe permit, you did not get a buck tag. Still No. Money Money Money==Kiss my behind==MGC, and have another wet one for us. PS since you seem to know so much, what in the hell ever happened to the hunting hike for Pheasant Habitat??? Another un TOLD..

[ 12-03-2003, 09:34: Message edited by: 4bambam ]

Thank you Tom, I live in Cache Valley, and I see your point. It's happening all over the West though, not just Utah, not just Cache Valley. Watching big bucks chase does on the bench above Logan is one of my favorite winter activites. There's still quite a few of them around.

Holy shit 4bambam, take a breath now and again. PUNCTUATION - maybe you've heard of it. When was the last time you bought an over the counter ML elk tag in UT? Seems to me like it's been a draw tag for a while now. (I could be wrong, and often am).

MGC- your response seems well thought out, and makes sense to me. My experience mirrors yours. I have no problem connecting in Utah on public land, elk or deer. I would say that I am willing to work harder than most hunters I've seen, and I'm sure that is a big factor in my success.

Maybe some of you Utah-haters should move to, say, Montana. Anyone checked the average wage there lately? Or maybe Nevada, I hear elk tags grow on trees there. Or Texas perhaps, where there is public land as far as the eye can see.

I take the good with the bad, fill my tags, shoot my limits, and enjoy living in a state where I can do so.

Your milage may vary.

I also hunted the Red Cloud loop area but in '02. My experience was similar to Cummins cowboy. What a disappointment! On the best (worst) day we'd see two or three 4 wheelers literally herding groups of 20 or 30 does. And they call that hunting? We saw one little forked horn and one little 3 pointer killed.

Needless to say, I was disappointed in my Utah deer hunt and most likely will not buy another tag there unless it is for a limited entry area.

Still love Utah.

4BamBam- You are representative of the average Utah sportsman who complains to everyone, yet does nothing to improve the situation. I'll answer any question you have for me, as long as you try to be civil.

-You could buy a Spike Only ML tag, now you can go buy an ANY BULL ML tag and not wait 3 years to draw the tag. Then old ML300 was statewide, but you had to abide by antler restrictions. I can see that you may be frustrated by the fact that the tag is no longer "Either-Sex", which to some may be a drawback. But I personally think it is better that I can now go buy a tag to Hunt Mature bulls with my ML rather than wait to draw a tag.

-If you don't know what the drought has to do with poor deer herds than maybe there is no hope to "educate" you further....but I'll try. Drought conditions make the range have poor food value, which in turn causes the Doe to have fawns of low birth weight, which in turn causes Higher fawn death, which in turn causes lower overall populations, which inturn means that there are less bucks to see and thus shoot at.

-Sounds to me like you are hunting in Piss-Poor areas. 220 doe and 3 two points. Sounds like you are road hunting a little too low on the mountain. The bucks are there for that herd, especially if you are seeing doe. Sounds like you know how to hunt doe, you just don't know how to hunt bucks.

-As for the pheasant hunt you have hit a nerve. I like to hunt pheasants, but it seems that most fields were I used to hunt them are now growing Housing developements. Which you did nothing to try to stop. (PS-I did kill my limit this year in UT on Public land, within 45 min. Just like the past 10 years.)

_Red Cloud Loop. HAHAHAHAHHAHA. Why would anyone spend the time and money to hunt such an accessible area???? I know of people who hunt there and have success, but they get away from the roads. Red Cloud Loop does not represent the rest of the state...hhahahahahhahaha If you can see a 4 wheeler, chances are good you will not see mature deer.

WesternHtr- The deer herd from the '60s to now is horrible, but it is that way in every state. Utah does suck with the population increase and developement, but that is not the Fault of the DWR. It is the politicain's fault.

-Utah is now the poster child for How To Manage Elk.

-Too many hunters only go hunting 1 week in the year and have no idea of what happens for the other 358 days. I used to hunt the Deep Creeks. It was awesome until the winter of 1993. They had early snow, then it melted a little, then it froze soild. A sheet of ice over the whole area. 90% of the deer herd died!! People returned there the next year to hunt and found NOTHING. Then they proceeded to blame the DWR.

I am not a DWR emplyoee, just a regular Joe who spends time in the OUtdoors of this state and many others. Utah hunting isn't perfect, but it is better than many of the other states in which I hunt. I had a great morning yesterday, as I watched 5 175"+ (1- 8x4) bucks on the winter range that came off public lands that were open to anyone with a Central tag. I saw over 25 bucks total plus 100 doe in the 15 minutes I spent looking. Nice to not have to just dream about deer......

Kilmer- Well said.

If any of you guys want to talk to me, I'll give you my phone number in a Private message.

MGC,

To expand on your point . . . with published buck/doe ratios hovering around 1/15 or 1/20 (or worse ), just how long do you think it would take to reach the capacity you desire? MAYBE two or three years (if that) if the weather cooperates? As you said, this is not so much a hunting issue as a drought issue. That particular problem is out of the hands of biologists (though permits in general may need to be reduced to compensate for higher fawn mortality etc.) and is not nearly as important in the long run as the screwy ratios. Yes, limited doe only hunting for a few years followed by point restrictions on bucks would make Utah a premier mule deer hunting venue.

JMHO,

JohnTheGreek

Kilmer I sense some sarcasm in your words in regarding to Utah sucking. Think whatever you want but I doubt you have had many days like this in Utah. Like I said I sure don't miss the place and in comparison "YES UTAH DOES SUCK!"

My first pheasant hunt here after leaving Utah. I didn't even have my plates changed over yet as you can see in the photo.


I don't hunt birds much preferring to spend my time chasing big game. However I got the urge a couple years ago and decided to combine a little bird hunting with filling some doe tags. I didn't even fantasize about days like this in Utah.


Just last week the urge hit again so a pard and I went for a stroll and in half a day of hunting this is how we did. Now if you think I'm just bragging you are right, but not about what I can do but about how much better other states are than Utah. Oh and by the way the deer hunting here is better than the bird hunting


If Utah hunting doesn't suck it sure has a lot of similarities to sucking.

MGC== you said central utah, I was talking Northern Utah, 2 different places. And as far as the drought,Its been like that here for the last 5yrs. And I was stating bad winters that we have had, has not helped with the drought being meant as one of the same for the deer. And for you New Member==Kilmer, if you read the topic I started, [[ not all ready sold permits ]], which after the draw, which they are never all drawn, then there sold, the Permits the over counter, Muzzle and General elk permits. You mentioned= Above the bench==which means above the deer fence or on the face of the mountains. Above all the houses which the DRW could have bought. ==Some parcels in North Logan, and could of had all the lower bench below the deer fence, from Logan River to Providence. Which was probably when you were in Diapers or maybe not even thought of back then. Just AS TOM P said-- all homes now. I was just like TOM P, Above River Heights, below Dry Cayon, little shooting range and in the winter it was a Winter Haven for the Deer. 100 to some times 200 all winter and plenty of grass..

4bambam, I hunted Northern Utah this year also and saw over 20 mature bucks in 3 days on a Public land. 30 min hike from the road. I can't say I "passed on them", because none were within bow range, but all would have been within rifle range.

I agree that Utah is going downhill with the developement, but there is nothing the DWR can do about it. And that does SUCK. It will take Utahns who are willing to speak out to protect some of the remaining critical habitat.

Western or JohnTG:
___Would one of you guys please explain to me WHY killing the doe population would benefit the OVERALL health of Utah's deer herd?????? I guess I am a slow learner, but here is why I think you guys are dead wrong.

Facts: -Utah estimates their Carrying Capacity at 425,000 deer. Utah's current deer population is estimated at 280,000. There is room for 145,000 more deer or a 50% increase above what we have at this time. It takes doe to produce the population increase. So you guys want to kill the doe population, even though the biologists want 100,000 more doe.

-Lets say you have 1 buck and 100 doe on range that can support 200 head of deer, and you want 10 bucks per 100 doe. The solution is not to shoot 90 doe to get the 1:10 ratio. The solution is to cut harvest so the WHOLE population grows. More doe means more fawns, means more bucks, means any dumby can get his deer.

-Buck to doe ratios are NOT 1:100. They stand between 13-56:100, depending on the unit. A meger 5:100 gets all the doe breed.

Big Sky, when you inviting me up to shoot some of those birds??? I think I'll pass on shooting that mulie doe, whitetail doe maybe, but a mulie doe... not much more than pulling the trigger. Looks like you have some private ground to access. Don't worry, the Californians are coming there next and Montana will be like Utah in 10 years. Well, except you guys will still have those willow horned mulies.

Kilmer-You joined AR forums 1 day later than 4bambam and you are the "New Member". hahahaha

MGC you mean like these willow horned bucks killed up here this year?



Or maybe this one from a few years ago?


Yup a bunch of willow-horned dinks.

If there is so much carrying compacity for animals, then why are you guys in the same breath complaining about urban development.

Big Sky- Yep those are the willow horns I'm talking about. (I wish sarcasm came off better through these forums.) Sweet deer and pheasant pics. I really think Montana is a great place and I would love to hunt there again. (Just this time I need a place to hunt that is a little more out-of-the-way) (I would love to get a mulie cape off one of your big bodied deer for my customer's mulie this year- 28" wide, 25 1/2" tall (measuring from the skull plate straight up), 4x5, with 7 1/4" bases and holds mass all the way up. 200" of bone. (he ruined the cape))

CumminsCowboy- Many of the urban areas have the best herds, ie. Wasatch Front from Ogden to Santaquin. But the more developement means the future of many herds will be permanently effected in a negative manner. The fragmentation of range through fencing and roads is a major problem with the developement. The rural area's deer herds are way down and can handle a huge population increase on may units.

I didn't take those deer. They were taken by Montanan's I know.

Here's my take. Utah does not manage for general season hunting. Management could care less what the herds are like in the open units. The focus is on the limited entry units. If one is lucky enough to draw one of these tags it can be the hunt of a lifetime. However, you must resign to hunting sub-par units for the balance of seasons between the draws. For instance, I saw 13 bulls in 4.5 days while hunting for a cow and 5 of these would have been near 300" with some much more. I have done quite a bit of work on Deseret Land and Livestock and can tell you that there are indeed some monster animals there. But, price and drawings keep the pressure low.

So, that's how I see UT. When comparing limited entry units in UT to any other place in any state they compare quite well. But, the general season hunts don't compare as favorable to some other states.

I've only been here going on three years, so I'm still hoping to find a 'honey-hole' for general season. Beings that I am a move-in I have to voice this. Many in UT that I've met are convinced that the growing population is due in large part to move-ins like me. I find this funny, as I've never been anywhere in the US where the avg. family size (qualitative data) is as large as it is here. You have eight kids that have eight kids... That has a much bigger effect on population than my wife, my 2 dogs, and me moving in.