We have a lease in the Texas Hill Country near Mason, TX on the Llano River. My dad and I manage it for his company. It is 2,000 acres and is loaded with deer. We have seen fresh tracks several times over the last 2 months and have found one deer that we know was killed by it. We have found lots of other dead deer that were too far gone to say for sure, but we suspect it was the mountain lion. Does anybody have a good idea for how we can kill this bastard? The area is very rocky and hilly. Any suggestions?

You might try calling, they will sometimes respond to a varmit call. Other than that, I think you will be left with trying to pattern its movements and spend as much time as possible watching one or two particular locations. JMO

I have a place not far in Junction. Since most are nocturnal, what I would suggest is baiting with calf liver.

Well those suggestions so far sound well and good and one may just work, but realistically the real way to get a cat is to run it with dogs tree it and kill it. Everything else you are just hoping to get lucky. Predator call would be a second choice, baiting way down in third place as an extrreme long shot.

ES, my hunting partner has dogs and I'm sure he would love to tree that SOB!! Let me know...wapiti7

Trying to kill a lion just because he has killed a few deer of a lease that is "loaded" with deer is stupid. Why not let him clean out the herd a little bit? Ged rid of the old, sick, weak, dying, etc deer.

The place I hunt whitetail is also loaded with deer. There are also lions all over the place. Unless you have some sort of management program set up by a professional, I would say the lion is doing you a favor.

MG

I tend to agree with Madgoat.

Madgoat & iwzbeeman

Well see the thing is, he's not only killing the old, sick, weak, dying, etc... The deer we found that was still fresh was a very healthy 4 1/2 year old buck. And yes, we already have a very strict management plan in place. We pay quite a lot of money for this place and we would prefer not to have a mountain lion killing all our deer, I would really like to shoot the SOB!

Thanks for all the suggestions guys. The landowner's son-in-law hunts pigs with dogs all the time on this place and he says that he can't believe he's never got them on a mountain lion yet. About 12 years ago, he said that he was calling with a predator call at night and they heard a mountain lion scream. They clicked on the Q-Beam and there was the cat in some heavy brush about 100 yards away. It screamed one more time and ran off before he could get a shot. Ever since then, there has been 2 sightings of mountain lions and one was shot at but missed at about 400 yards.

It is a very popular misconsception that the Mountain Lions and Wolves and Bears "weed out" the old the sick and the crippled but that is horse shit. Any predator is an animal of opportunity and there are far more healthy animals out there than not and that is what they feed on. Anything that presents itself and don't think they wouldn't take a child or an adult human in the right circumstances either.
We've also been told that only old or weak or sick predators will prey on humans but all you have to do is open your eyes and we know that is untrue as well.
Get someone down there with lion dogs and tree and shoot that cat.

I think you should get some cyanide treated bait and spread it out all over the ranch, just sterilize it of all predators. Then you can push for the program to be spread throughout the country. Every large predator within 200 miles of a human, or a prey item a human might want to shoot, should be killed out. Then we can take the program to Africa, India, and Indonesia. All lions, think the Maisai don't have problems with lions?, tigers, cheetahs, leopards, Cape hunting dogs, wolves, bears, maybe even bobcats be gone. With the ever spread of humans they are bound to come into contact/confict with most all predators - so let's get going. Won't the world be a most wonderful place.

Anybody know of someone here in Texas that has lion dogs and how much they charge?

TPWD has collected mountain lion sighting and mortality data for the past 18 years. If you have a verifiable sighting or kill a mountain lion please contact your local biologist or game warden or call Texas Parks and Wildlife headquarters at 1-800-792-1112.

I do not believe that the state of Texas recognizes mountain lions as a game animal and I do believe that they are huntable 24/7 year round as a pest. Flip side of this is that mountain lions in a large remote area is probably one of the better methods of deer management as it helps keep the deer herd in check more so than you could ever do. Also, you may be able to tap into on some very exciting mountain lion hunting as a method to keep the cat population in check.

Trained dogs are probably the best method though they can be called in on a predator call and they have been caught and relocated using baited traps. As long as pets, livestock and children are not in danger; I'd consider letting them be.

GaryVA

We haven't seen it, the group that had the lease saw it. This is our first year to have the lease. Well, the landowner does run cattle on it. I'm sorry, but we're not going to let it be. If anyone sees it, it WILL be shot and we will report it to the biologist. Yes, Mountain Lions may be hunted in Texas any day of the year without any permits or tags and there is no limit. All you need is a hunting license.

MG cats and yotes will decimate a herd killing off all of the fawns.Too many fairy tales have been dropped about the sick,weak and injured being the food source of the predators it's all BS.All predators need to be controlled prime example of idiots meddling in game mgt is the ban in Calif on hunting mtn lions, our deer herds are rapidly disappearing along with big horn sheep.

You might try to get in touch with Los Cazadores Dogo Kennels. Seem like I saw a while back that he was trying to put together a pack of cat hounds (not Dogos).

What an ego!!!!!!!!!! "We don't want him killing all our deer".

Son, you don't own any deer. Nobody does unless they are in a secure pen. The lion is doing what comes natural to him. If he takes a buck instead of an old doe, well that's just nature. A lion is not going to have any appeciative impact on a well managed deer herd. A lot of the major ranches in Texas, and elsewhere, have killed off all the predators and artificially increased the numbers of deer by feeding and now have to do culling operations to keep the herds balanced. Nature has let the good old predator/prey thing go on for millions of years and it seems to work pretty good. The mountain lions in this country have been feeding on deer for a hell of a lot longer than we hunters have.

Having the lion there will make your deer herd stronger in the long run. Natural predadation is an important part of the wild world. By wanting to run out and kill the lion for doing what nature intended it to do so you can have "your" deer is one of the biggest reasons the anti's have a problem with hunting.

Now mind you, I'm not against hunting the lion. My family has hunted and killed many of them over the years. I just think they should be hunted in the proper mind set. They are an incredible animal and should be hunted with reverence, not just because they take some deer off a place that is "loaded with deer". The lion could care less how much you and your family have invested.

Lions hunt to fill their stomach. I'd like to see you try to eat the antlers off the dead buck you found. You hunt for enjoyment. If you didn't, you wouldn't care about the dead 4 1/2 year old buck, you'd care about the loss of meat and I don't see any mention of that.

The lion hunts to survive and feed it's young. Big difference! My 2 cents worth.

Mac

Good post Mac. I disagree with the notion some folks have that lions don't kill the weak or sick. There are a lot of things that can be wrong with a deer, and just because his/her leg isn't broken or is emaciated doesn't mean that there isn't something wrong with a deer that looks otherwise "healthy". The other thing is, just because you find a dead deer on your place doesn't mean it was preyed upon. And unless you have the background to be able to confirm a lion kill, vs a coyote kill, vs a bobcat kill vs disease, parasites or what not (which I am sure these guys don't have) it could have been any number of things. Heck, EHD can kill up to 60% of a deer herd damn near over night, and you don't hear a damn thing about it from folks. Maybe all those deaths get blamed on coyotes? Bring one lousy lion into the picture (who on average will kill one deer every 7-9 days) and folks freak out. I'm sure in Texas, more deer are killed in traffic accidents that are ever eaten by cats.

Truth of the matter, if the whitetail habitat on this 2000 acres is in good shape, predation from predators will have a minimal impact on the deer herd.

MG

Sent a PM. For those who may be deprived of spending enough time in the mountains to deserve an opinion, it is not uncommon for lions to kill trophy class bull elk and deer of all varieties. The "only the sick and weak" position is incorrect.

B Sanders

I guess if you spend a lot of time in the mountains, then you should know that the rigors of the rut for both bull elk and buck deer put their body in VERY poor shape going into the winter.

Doesn't this put them at risk since they are worn down, full of puncture holes, etc, as well as not having the 17 hours per day like the does and fawns to, which is devoted to putting on fat reserves for the winter? I categorize them in the "weak" as well.

MG

All predators are opportunists they'll try to take down anything they see w/o discriminating between animal or human.

The decision is yours. I hope you weigh some of the responses here. If you want to remove the lion, then post here:
http://www.predatormastersforums.com/ubbthreads/postlist.php?Cat=0&Board=19

There are plenty of folks there that will do it for a chance at lion using calls.

Just make sure you are talking about a single lion and not a mother with cubs.

quote:

Originally posted by MAC:

By wanting to run out and kill the lion for doing what nature intended it to do so you can have "your" deer is one of the biggest reasons the anti's have a problem with hunting.


Mac

What kind of logic is this? Why should anyone have to justify their hunting to an anti-hunter? Are you saying that only animals that are not acting as nature intended should be hunted? Hunters are the conservationists. It is up to us to be good stewards of all our natural resources, and we should do it because it is right, not because we want to placate some anti-hunter.

Thank you Lhook7.

Mac

I guess we can agree to disagree. I hate to bust your bubble but, yes, they are OUR deer. I'm sure if you ask some of the other proud Texans on this board, most will agree that these deer are OURS. If they live on your property and you spend thousands feeding them and caring for them, they are YOURS. We feed 1 1/2 tons of supplemental feed per week. We would not be doing this if they weren't OURS.

quote:

hate to bust your bubble but, yes, they are OUR deer.

I don't mind bursting your bubble by pointing out that wildlife is a publically owned resource regardless of your personal feelings.

If during deer season one of 'your' bucks hops the fence to an adjoining property and is shot by someone else you have no legal recourse bacause the law doesn't recognize your 'ownership'.

I never said they were MY deer. I said they were OUR deer. Some people say the state of Texas owns the deer. Well, who owns the state of Texas? That's right, us. It all depends on how you look at it. But, I think we can all agree that if it wasn't for us, the hunters and sportsmen, wildlife would be in the shitter. Lhook7 hit the nail on the head:

quote:

Hunters are the conservationists. It is up to us to be good stewards of all our natural resources

That's why I would like to shoot the mountain lion. But I'm sure someone else has another reason I shouldn't. Here we go!

If you want to raise deer, I'd shoot the damn lion. He/she will kill around 50 deer per year. It may eliminate a few of the sick/lame lazy deer, but it will also kill anything it can catch.
Of course, if you want to be "politically correct", and have a "diverse" mixture of animals, you won't shoot him.

To hell with all the "politically correct" BS ! I don't really care what a few odd balls on this forum say, if I see it, lead is gonna fly! To be honest, I think one lion in our area could pretty easily kill more than 50 deer per year, maybe closer to 75. Our deer population is estimated at 600-700 deer on 2,000 acres of unfenced land! This cat doesn't have to go far to get a meal. I'm surprised we haven't found him dead somewhere because he popped from eating so much.

If they need to put out 78 tons of supplemental feed per year for the deer they got, they are trying to raise way too many deer for what this place can support. They are feeding an extra 61 deer per year (7# per day per deer) that would otherwise not be alive due to habitat concerns. A cleaning job by a cat is the best thing for this place.

If I was wanting to grow some antlers, I would let him thin the deer out. Heck, if you figure they have 500 deer on that 2000 acres, they would need to shoot at least 210 deer a year just to keep up with recruitment (based upon 70% fawn survival rate which I'm sure Texas could do). The 50 or so that the cat will take is a drop in the bucket! Besides that lions are territorial and their home ranges (in good habitat) ar quite large. If this cat had a 20 square mile piece of ground that it utilized, and it would require a lot more than that 2000 acre worm farm to sustain this cat, in all likely hood you would only lose 10-15 deer.

It sounds to me that you found a dead buck, and this deal became personal. To you, these ARE YOUR DEER...which they aren't, but since you're feeding them and have vested a bunch of $$ in this deal I can easily see how you feel this way. I love all the finger pointing at this cat by some folks, but all that lion is doing is being a cat, what has been hard wired in their brain for eons. They are not killing deer to spite you, or to piss you off. They are doing what they need to survive. You can't beat on your chest and claim to be a "conservationsit" if you don't realize that lions (even though folks may not like them) have an intrinsic value and a place in ecosystems. Folks have been fed so much BS about lions (you've got a better chance of being struck by lightning twice, that have an encounter with a cat) people are afraid for no good reason. In my mind, that is all that is going on.

Frankly I have nothing against hunting a lion (I've hunted them myself), but if you are truly trying to grow some big deer and manage your deer (I would love to talk to your biostitute about this) the lion isn't even making a dent in deer numbers, but instead doing you a favor.

Just my two cents...

MG

Not to cast stones but only to be ethical by brushing up on my mountain lion knowledge and to better understand the political climate in regards to mountain lions and ranchers in Texas;

I only researched Texas sources:

As to the lion:

Home range can vary from 10 to 370 square miles and a lion kills one deer every 9 to 14 days. (Information compiled from U.S. Department of Agriculture, Wildlife Services, San Antonio, Texas, and Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks, Helena, Montana)

As to the rancher:

Take, for example, the rancher in Jeff Davis County. He usually takes 80 paid deer hunters on his property every year. If those 80 hunters were non-resident hunters, they would generate $16,000 in license fees alone to the state of Texas. (Texas non-resident deer hunting fee figured at $200) However, that's the tip of the iceberg in regards to the benefits. What about the food, gas, lodging, equipment, guide fees, etc.? If all those factors are figured in, the lost economic benefit is $112,000. (Information collected in interviews with Texas Guides and Outfitters. The average guide fee or hunt for deer is $1,000. Most non-resident hunters travel an average of two days to reach their hunting destination. Thus $200 is conservatively estimated for travel expenses - gas, meals and lodging. $200(license fee) + $1000 (all expense paid hunt fee) + $200 (travel expense) = $1,400. $1,400 x 80 (hunters) = $112,000.)

A conservative estimate of what a deer is worth (in Texas) as a production commodity (i.e. non-resident hunting) is $1,400. Let's be even more conservative and say a harvestable deer is worth $1,000. That would mean, taking the estimate of one deer per lion every two weeks, one lion could consume up to $26,000 dollars of deer (if those deer were harvested by non-resident hunters) every year! (Information compiled from T. R. Mader, Research Director of Abundant Wildlife Society of North America).

As to Texas Parks and Wildlife:

In Texas, the Mountain Lion is found throughout the Trans-Pecos, as well as the brushlands of south Texas and portions of the Hill Country. Sighting and kill reports indicate that Mountain Lions now occur in more counties than they did 10 years ago and appear to be expanding their range into central Texas. (Information compiled from Texas Parks and Wildlife Department).

This is a good read on the subject:

http://www.biggamehunt.net/sections/Mountain_Lion/Big_C...e_Back_11040212.html

As I said before, don't discount your opportunity to hunt these cats as a means to keep them in check. But I don't particularly like the notion of eradicating them as a means of gmae management.

good luck

Madgoat,

We don't put out 78 tons of supplemental feed per year to keep the deer alive. We do this to keep them extra healthy (we feed a mixture of 40% Corn, 40% Protein Pellets, 20% Milo) and to attract more deer to our hunting areas. Luckily we don't have to pay for all this. The lease and all other expenses are paid for by my dad's company and we manage it. We are aware that we have a few too many deer. This is the first year for us to have this place and we plan on taking 150-200 does this year to thin out the population. So, we don't need the lion's help, we can take care of it. I don't know how big the buck we found dead was because it was just after he shed his antlers, but I'd prefer not to be walking around in the brush one day and find a beatiful 150" buck dead from the damn mountian lion. Also, just so you know, fawn survival is nowhere near 70% in the majority of Texas because of the abundance of Coyotes. In fact in our area, the average fawn MORTALITY is 60-80% depending on the year and how much rain we've gotten (which determines the amount of thick brush available for does to hide their fawns in). We are actually members of an association where there is a $150 bounty on Coyotes.

GaryVA,

Thanks for the objective info. Actually the numbers are way more staggering than you so conservatively mentioned. The out-of-state license fee is now $300 and there's no way in hell you'll find a trophy whitetail hunt in Texas for $1,000 including all meals, lodging, guide, etc... I would say a conservative price would be $2500-$3000. Plug in those figures and you'll get a much higher value. However, it's not entirely accurate because a lion won't just be eating trophy bucks (fortunately). So, I would cut that figure in half for a rough estimate.

Look, enough with the damn politics. I started this thread to try and find an effective way to kill this mountain lion and now we're just going in circles about how much deer are worth in Texas and some sissy reasons we should just leave the lion alone. I guess I'll just try some calling with the Johnny Stewart and keep my eyes peeled when I'm out on the ranch and if I see it, I'll shoot it. If I don't see it, I guess I won't. Either way, somebody's gonna be pissed and somebody's gonna be happy.

I guess there is no sense in arguing with ignorance. Sissy reason for leaving the lion alone? Go back to high school...

Good luck with your deer herd. As for the lion, I would put my money on him doing just fine. If you value wildlife in dollar signs, I have a good idea what kind of hunter you are.

MG

Madgoat:

I guess the wolves of Montana, Idaho etc. are also just weeding out the sick animals and keeping the herds in perfect order. What would you suggest Eland Slayer do if he was raising cattle, turn the other cheek?
How do you feel about coyotes? Live and let live there also?

Eland Slayer:

I hope you spend some time with the local game biologist. If you have 500 to 700 deer on 2000 acres, you only have 3 to 4 acres per deer. According to the TPWD, the deer carrying capacity in the Hill Country is 10 to 20 acres per deer. If you really have over 500 deer (wonder what type of population survey was done) you are running way too many deer on the place. As to supplemental feeding, TPWD says "supplemental feeding should not be used to increase carrying capacity. Maintaining excess deer negatively impacts perferred deer plants, accelerates range deterioration and promotes disease."

Here is a good place to start:
http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/publications/pwdpubs/media/pwd_rp_w7000_0828.pdf

Not passing judgement, but if you want to be a "good steward and conservationist" I sure hope you will get in touch with the local biologist and let him help you manage your place.

As to the lion, not sure it would be financially worthwile to spend the $$ to hire someone to take him. But if I saw one on my place (not likely that you'd ever see one) I'd take him out, just like coyotes and hogs...realizing that we'll never remove all the hogs, or 'yotes or lions...

Good luck with your new venture...sounds like it will be a lot of fun...

This issue is not unique to Texas, Montana and Idaho but is world wide. As a wildlife/game management issue it is better known to wildlife biologists as the "Maximum Sustained Yield" principle or "MSY". It works this way -- natural predators are managed (i.e. killed off) in order to allow more ungulates, such as deer, to survive while habitat manipulation increases their food supply and prompts the females maximum reproduction potential. This could be eradicating the lions in Texas, eradicating the wolves in Montana or eradicating the bears in Alaska (which by the way is being argued w/ the same passions now), etc., etc, etc. This model of game management is mostly driven by an increasing commercial demand for selling and hunting live wild ungulates and their products. Many hunters have issues with this game management model such as ethics, public perception of hunting, ownership of wildlife resources, ecological stewardship, and commercialization and domestication of wild animals.

As far as killing off the predators (lions in your case) w/ this game management model: methods used are trapping, cyanide guns (M-44's), strychnine, compound 1080, hunting, aerial gunning, antifertility agents, dogs, electric fencing, chemical repellents, and scare devices.

I do not prefer your method of management as I believe that the long term results will not be worth your short term commercial goals. I do prefer the more traditional "Sustained Yield" model to provide a natural range of habitat diversity maintaining the integrity of natural processes. This includes balancing management of predator-prey (whether the predator is cats in Texas or bears in Alaska and whether the prey is deer in Texas or moose in Alaska). I'm of the opinion that the long term results of this model is far superior to yours. There is nothing sissy about any of this, just different views of stewardship and management based on practice and science.

Them damn predators don't just kill the sick and weak. I've seen wolves kill a 150 inch whitetail that would have dressed over 200 probably and suspect lions are the same.

Madgoat,

I in no way, shape or form value wildlife in dollar signs. I think you may have misunderstood where I am coming from. We don't get any money for hunting on this place. It is only a place for us to entertain clients and hunt ourselves. I'd also appreciate it if you wouldn't judge what kind of hunter I am.

olarmy,

Yes, we are working very closely with our biologist. The TPWD recommended carrying capacity is only an average and the whitetail habitat on our place is WAY above average. The majority of the Hill Country has lots of rocky hills with little grass and is absolutely overrun with cedar (which is completely useless to Whitetail except for cover). We probably only have 100 cedars on the entire 2,000 acres (Thank God). Luckily, we have over a mile of frontage on the Llano River, which flows year round. We have an abundance of "South Texas" type brush with lots of legumes (beans, peas, etc...) and forbes. We also have live oaks, post oaks, mesquite, persimmons, elm trees, and other stuff. We have great diversity of whitetail food. We also have very good grass. In fact, our grass is so good that you can easily see 50-75 cottontail rabbits on your way to a stand about an hour before daylight. And they are fat and happy. Yes, we really do have well over 500 deer on the place (probably closer to 700). It is not uncommon to see 100-200 deer every day if you're driving around on the ranch. We're going to handle the mountain lion just as you said. We're not going to spend the money to hire someone, but if any of us see him, we'll shoot him. In addition to all the deer, we also have hundred of hogs. We are trying to really take a lot of hogs this year to leave more food for the deer. Yotes, Bobcats, and Red Fox all get shot as well.

Eland Slayer!
A question and a comment.

How have you come up with the population estimate of 500 to 700 deer?

Comment!
The often heard statement that predators take the weak and the sick is a not what the research data has shown nor what any predator/prey biologist will tell you happens. Predators take the most vulnerable animal that they test.. At any point in time any member of the herd could be the most vulnerable. The selected animal may be vulnerable for a whole host of reasons. It may result from a perfecetly healthy deer walking under a tree that the lion happens to be sitting in. Possibly the aninmal is behind a bush with his head down eating and another deer standing next to it is standing head up and alert. The saying that the predator takes the weak and the sick comes from the fact that weak or sick deer are less alert and less able to run effectively from a predator than healthy deer. Therefore the odds are that a weak or sick deer will be taken before a healthy deer, is generally correct. No responsable wildlife biologist would ever say that predators "only" take the weak or the sick.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by LJS:
Madgoat:

I guess the wolves of Montana, Idaho etc. are also just weeding out the sick animals and keeping the herds in perfect order. What would you suggest Eland Slayer do if he was raising cattle, turn the other cheek?
How do you feel about coyotes? Live and let live there also?

For one I have never stated that predators ONLY take out the weak or the sick. However, more often than not (and I've seen this with wolves killing elk) they will focus on that animal that may have a slight gimp, a little gaunt, or does not appear as healthy as the rest of the group. Like I have stated earlier, there is a lot more that can be going on with an animal internally that we cannot see, but predators have the ability to interpret.

As for coyote control, killing off offending animals that have been killing livestock is appropriate. Large scale predator is a total waste of time in my book. If you took the hundred of MILLIONS of dollars the US taxpayers have put towards controling predators, and put it into some sort of incentive program for landowers or habitat enhancement on public lands there would be no need for predator control anyhow. This is based upon:
1. Predators like coyotes are density dependent.
2. Studies have shown coyotes litter sizes flucutate with the level of control, that is, the more control pressure put on the animals the larger the litter size, the less pressure the smaller.
3. CRP analogy....how hard is is for a fox to find a pheasant nesting along a ditch when the field is mowed to 1' off either side of the water? Pretty easy. Now put a 40 yard buffer on each side of the ditch and see how efficient the fox is. Not very.

If all you "anti-predator" chest beaters truly want to save your precious deer, why not lower the speed limit to 20 mph to keep cars from hitting them? You lose way more deer to car accidents than you ever do coyotes, wolves or lions. Too bad your indifference towards something which does serve a purpose in nature is over run by your stupidity.

MG

Please excuse my "stupidity" but I have read that litter size of predators is primarily dictated by the availability of prey.
I think I see the logic to your position. When the wolves in your neck of the woods have wiped out the deer and elk, they will effectively wipe themselves out. Net result fewer elk thus fewer wolves.
I think the reason this is a point of contention is how a lease holder who spends a great deal of money views the game on his lease. They are the same as livestock to the leaseholder thus protecting them from 2 or 4 legged poachers is important.
I apologize to Eland Slayer for this tangent. All he wanted was help getting a problem solved.