Just returned from a short hunting trip to Montana for elk. My hunting buddy shot a decent 4x5 bull w/ his 30-06 @ just 75 yards in the timber. The bull presented a perfect broadside & he placed the 180gr factory silver tip in the ribcage. the bull spun & went about 20yds before piling up. He took a bit if time to expire & when we started skinning I noticed no exit wound. There was quite a bit of blood @ the impact site but little for the 20yds or so that he covered.
While skinning I found what was left of the bullet, a very small section of the base. The post mortem showed both lungs shredded & a rib broken on entry. IF this bullet hits a shoulder or was a 1/4ing shot I think a badly wounded bull has to be tracked. What do you guys think? I have always been a fan of premium bullets for big game even in non-magnums for the very situation that occured, a close range, tough target. I think his choice of the 30-06 is fine, but I think he may be switching to NPs for future hunts. Good hunting!

Fred,

What you describe is typical of the Silver Tip. I have hunted with a 375 H&H using ST in Africa a long time ago. Sometimes they worked, and sometimes they did not.

After than hunt, I promised to never use any of the normal SP bullets for my hunting.

Since then, I have used the Barnes X, Trophy Bonded Bear Claws and the Jensen bullets. They all performed very reliably. My personal favorite is the Barnes X.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

I'll second Saeed's comments on the Silvertips. Most shooters either love them or hate them.

For Elk size critters, stick with "Premium" bullets. You may need the penetration someday.

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May I be half the man my dog thinks I am.

Yes, Silvertips these days are about the consistency of modeling clay...

Another case for the premium bullet...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Was it the old winchester silvertip? Or the newer, combined technologies (nosler and winchester) ballistic silver tip?

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God Bless and Shoot Straight

444 has a good question. But either way, those bullets aren't designed (IMHO) for anything weighing more than 300 pounds. Had the same thing (complete blow-up) happen with a 130-grain Speer Grand Slam years ago on a mule deer buck. Hit it in the shoulder at 50 yards and it turned into tiny pieces.

Stick with the good bullets. I like Nosler Partitions and Winchester Fail-Safes.

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"shoot 'em if you got 'em!"

Fred,

Sorry I missed you......waited for a call from Friday afternoon through the weekend. Even sorrier that you didn't get a shot at a bull. I had my elk rack in the back of the Tahoe all weekend, hoping you'd call.

I have absolutely given up on standards, at least for ELK, in any of the under thirty calibers, and especially if there is very much velocity involved. The extra cost for even a Nosler partition is pretty minimal , just can't see why anyone would use a bullet not up to the task.

I used some old Silvertips in a .270 once and nearly lost a deer that was hit well, but the bullet blew up on the shoulder joint. I chalked it up to luck and never gave it any thought. Never even thought of using them on elk.

Hope you draw next year Fred! FN

I thought silver tips were for whitetails and small mulies. Thin skinned stuff. While I like the extra confidence that using premium bullets gives me, I can think of a whole bunch of "standard" bullets I would use before I would use a silver tip on an elk.

I remember hearing/reading that the "classic" Silvertip has undergone a few changes since its introduction decades back. Apparently, it's not the tough cookie that it once was.

A testament to this is the fact that a lot of guy's my Grandfather's age, who haven't really kept up with technology, will say "Be sure to use a Silvertip" whenever large/tough game is mentioned. Like most good things, some "expert" eventually saw a need to change the Silvertip "for the better." And we all know how beneficial that can be.

RSY

The single bullet, is the cheapest thing you will invest in the hunt. How much have you invested up untill the shot? Rifle, scope, traveling expenses, time, whatever. And, it all comes down to sending one bullet downrange. When you do send that bullet, its all out of your hands except the perfomance of that bullet. You just sit, watch, and hope you've chosen it well.

I, for one, will always start at "the top" and work down when it comes to the premiums. Instead of "the bottom" and working up as they fail along the way. I think this is the single, most important investment you can make in your hunt. People talking about cheaper bullets, because they are cheaper to buy, only will keep watching them blow up on the near shoulder until they've hopefully had enough.

Sorry I got wound up!!??

Good huntin, djd.

As I suspected from the guys who have hunted a lot. I have always used the premiums for my big game hunting & always will. I just hope my buddy has become a convert! The silvertip was the older version, very soft!
RSY, you may have a point, Roy is pushing his mid 60's & has been a deer hunter most of his life. This was his 1st bull elk & I hope he has learned from the experience. It just reafirmed my own thoughts.
Frank, wish I could have gotten away, but time was very short. The bull's rack is great though.

ALthough I agree with most everyone on the Nosler partition (or maybe another premium) I have to ask a serious question in this instance: Exactly when, during the demise of this particular animal, did the bullet fail? Think about it!

Lack of blood trail (especially after only 20 yards) indicates nothing. I've shot lots of animals that left no blood trail and went 100 yards. Shot a big doe last year with a 75 grain Muzzy broadhead...went completely through and hit both lungs high up in the chest. She left no blood trail for the first 50 yards. Then as her lungs filled up with blood she began spraying it out her nose like a spray bottle...it was everywhere. But not a drop came from her entrance and massive exit wounds... She piled up around 80 yards down the trail.

Jeff S, my point on the bullet failing, is that on a good shot that should have provided complete penetration, the bullet fragmented so badly that we could only find about 15-20gr of it. If the bull turned either way at the moment of the shot, I'm sure their would have been a badly wounded elk.
This is why I always hunt w/ prem. bullets on ALL big game and encourage others to do so. It's just an insurance policy if something goes a bit wrong. The cost can't really be an issue if you are already spending 100's of dollars to hunt out of state. Even if you shoot 500rds a year in practice & shoot your premiums, thats only an extra $250/yr. Most of us don't shoot our hunting rifles 500 times each / year and you can usually get standard bullets to shoot close to POA for practice.

Fred, I understand what you are saying. But I have to disagree with you in this particular instance--the bullet didn't fail!
An animal that piles up in 20 yards means the bullet worked wonderfully! Would it have failed on a shoulder...maybe. Then again I know people on this board who will be happy to tell you how their premium bullets "fail"...
Heck, 500 grains shoots his elk with "pre-expanded" .450 caliber bullets and still has problems...
The "magic bullet" that performs perfectly under all conditions doesn't exist. Frankly, I'd be elated if all my shots went as well as your friend's elk hunt!

Saeed is correct. This is typical performance of the silvertip. Did it fail? Ask 10 guys, get 10 different answers!

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"Certified Rifle Crank!"

Anybody else see the how they performed in the Jan Shooting Times paid advertisement (err...I mean "article") on the 270/7mm WSM's?

The 130 270 bullet hit in the chest, ejected its core and didn't exit. On a mule deer. From a "magnum." The "article" said the bullet as "Performed exactly as designed--full explosive upset and shed of the nose core, with the heel core behind the partition still intact."

First, somebody needs to tell Dick to take a look at his own bullet. The "Ballistic Silvertips" don't have a partition, nor a rear core:

http://www.nosler.com/ballsilvertip.html

They're a glorified, black and grey colored Ballistic Tip. Nothing more.

Sure, it did the job in this case as basically any bullet would have (without hitting a shoulder or any bone or having to penetrate any distance before reaching the vitals).

If they are really designed to eject their one and only core upon impact, he had better be glad it wasn't a steeply quartering away shot unless he likes tracking gut-shot deer.

My dad lost a whitetail once with a 150 BT from his 7mm Rem Mag. Hit shoulder, blew up, didn't penetrate, deer ran away. We found it the next day...that's the last time we used those bullets for anything but paper punching or rock chucks.

That comment just pisses me off because it reminds me of Rick Jamison's article when the BT's first came out around 15 years ago. He proclaimed them perfect for heavy game even though the article contained penetration tests that showed the bullets being reduced to tiny fragments in test medium. I wonder how many people (that took his word for it and didn't look at the results) lost game animals because of that article?

A typical case of having your mind made up about what you're going to write before you experience the product. And not enough objectivity to change it when the results are in front of you.

BTW, I've take deer with 130 X-Bullets launched more than 400 FPS faster than the bullet in the article was. They break both shoulders and exit. Every time. The deer doesn't take a step. Ever. My brother has had similar results with 130 X's from his 270 Win at about 150 fps less velocity.

No, you don't "need" premium bullets for deer. But they're nice insurance when you aren't presented with a perfect shot. But more than that, I've seen countless "standard" bullets that perform better than the BT's and are just fine for deer.

Oh yeah, the 7mm WSM "exceeds the performance of the longer belted 7mm Remington Magnum round, in every ballistic category, again because of the efficiency of the new case design...."

But that's a different thread. Now I remember why I stopped reading gun magazines for about 6 years....

I gotta agree with Jeff here, I've seen all kinds of bullets fail to work, but you got to keep bullet selection in context here, regular bullets in super pooper meat explders cals don't work. But here in Can we eat the deer we shoot & a shot right thru Both front shoulders of a deer will def kill it but you can keep my share of those shoulders. I, too am not a fan of silvertips but in the old 30-30 they are sure good performers on deer, & in my .280 .308s corelocks & Hor interlocks sure work good. To 338, you state shreaded both lungs & went 20yds sounds like perfect performance from an 06.

444,
The old silvertips were better than the new ones, but neither are suitable as far as I'm concerned...

The best bullets today are the Nosler, Woodleigh, GS and especially the Northforks..these are all just good bullets any way you cut it.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Atkinson:
about those woodleighs, I was thinking about getting some 300gr .338 softpoints for my .338 Ultra...as stated in my earlier post about the 9.3s, I figure I can launch them at 2800+fps out of my 26" barrel. Too fast for the woodleighs? I wouldn't imagine it to be too fast, since 2700-2800 is still considered "moderate" velocity, and ideal for soft point bullets w/out any sort of "partition" feature. However, I'm not familiar with the woodleigh's performance. Any info will help.

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God Bless and Shoot Straight

John Barsness pretty well described the problem and its cure recently.

In the most recent Handloader, he wrote an article on Nosler B-Tips. In it he recounts telling a friend who used the 165 B-Tip on elk that eventually he'd have trouble with it. For several seasons his friend would call up and brag about the B-Tips and how they had slain another elk.

Then one year said friend calls and asks what OTHER bullet Barsness might recommend for elk in the '06. Seems he whacked a big cow in the shoulder and his 165 B-Tip wnt to pieces. He got to chase her around for awhile. John B's cure? Partitions (or, I assume, any similar premium bullet)

CAN 165 grain .308 B-Tips kill elk? In good circumstances (direct broadside shots), yes. Are they good elk bullets? No - there is little room for error with tem, and they'll eventually fail - maybe on the first
elk, maybe on the 5th, but eventually you'll have problems. The same is true for Silvertips, as they are also a very soft bullet.

Conclusion: While the 180 grain Silvertip in FREJ338's story did kill this elk, it would likely not have been as rosy a picture if the projectile had landed on the thick shoulder or neck muscles. Last time I checked, there's no guarantee that your elk, deer, or whatever will be cooperative enough to provide the classic broadside shot.

Why chance wasting a hunt and having a regal game animal suffer by using a bullet that works only marginally well? There are way too many good game bullets on the market to take such chances. If FREDJ's buddy shoots enough elk with that 180 Silvertip, eventually it will cost him.

Just because a bullet in a given circumstance kills a game animal doesn't make it a good choice for that animal. Heavens, WDM Bell killed most of his 1000+ elephants with a 7x57, but few of us would call a 173 grain military 7mm FMJ a good elephant bullet. Just because it can be done doesn't make it a good idea.

BY the way, Barsness also said that B-Tips over .30 caliber (8mm,338,358,366) hold together much better than the 30-and-under calibers. He has used the 200 grain .338 on critters up to 450 pounds and likes them.

[This message has been edited by BigIron (edited 12-07-2001).]

[This message has been edited by BigIron (edited 12-07-2001).]

It is funny you can start a real heated argument on these threads with just mentioning a certain bullet is better than others. But when it comes down to it we spend a lot of money on rifles,scopes and other equipment not to mention licenses and travel to get us to our hunting spots. The last thing that leaves us is hopefully a well placed bullet into an animal. For and extra 50 - 75 cents per shot I am going to shoot nothing but premium bullets. If I didn't need it oh well, but it is nice to know that if I do my part that extra 50 cents is well spent in performance.

Happy Hunting

I had a challenging situation with bears a few years ago. I'll always go premium now. Like djd said above, once you shoot the hunt is outta your hands. In close is where you'll have bullet breakup problems, and if its a bear you are against in close is where you want certainty.

These days the ole silver tip is hardly acceptable for anything but varmints and paper punching. I have heard of too many stories of failure with this bullet that I will never make the mistake of using one on a deer sized game or larger. They may work on small game decently though.

As many people have said, just stick to whats known to work and don't think twice about it. Spending the extra 10 bucks for the premium bullets should be the norm. About the cheapest bullets anyone should use is the Rem CoreLokt, but again that is a proven killer, perhaps not in the same ballpark as Partitions, but should still do the trick...