It has struck me that many posters on this formum advocates fragile bullets in awsome velocities for large-sized game.

How come? It is a truly different matter in scandinavian countries where modest calibers are used in slow velocities, but generally with high-class bullets (TXP, Barnes X, Norma Oryx, Trophy Bonded etc) instead.

What are your ideas about this?

Hi Herrberg,
I killed my first buck with a .222 at 15 yards with a 52 grain hollow point in the lungs. He ran
35 yards and left a jello trail for 20 of those.
No exit wound, but everything in the chest cavity poured out like a can of tomato soup.
I know that we frown on varmint bullets for deer, but if anyone has ever seen what one does to the organs of a deer once it's in the chest cavity, it's hard to argue with those results.
I'd only do it again if it was a life or death food need, or something.
Most of my deer have been with a 12 gauge slug.
I use a 55 grain ballistic tip in the 243 for coyotes. That really flattens em' good.
Lately i've used the 300 WBY with a 180 grain nosler Part. for deer.
I shot one around 380 yards, in the heart, and out the far shoulder, and the bullet expanded about an inch through the shoulder blade.
I took another at about 100 yards, with almost no expansion.
I would use this combination for all Deer/Elk/Moose species in North America, probably Black Bear also. Some day i'll afford it, and let you know how it works out.
Trigger

[ 03-25-2003, 17:44: Message edited by: TRIGGERHAP2 ]

Herrberg, I suspect one of the factors is the common use of stand hunting (blinds and tree stands). If you have the luxury of shooting from know distances, at undisturbed animals, very fragile bullets, precisely placed, can give spectacular results. Especially from '06 class cartridges.

You won't see many folks here in the Western part of the States advocate fragile bullets. Perhaps because our deer are generally a good bit larger, but probably because we have more of a "spot and stalk" (or, stalk and spot, as the case may be) style of hunting. FWIW, Dutch.

In Texas centerfire .22's are legal but that does not mean they should be used.They work great when a perfect shot is presented,But we should use more than the bare minimum caliber required,you never know when a little extra power or bullet weight for better penetration will be needed.

Bullet placement is what it is all about. Knowing what your bullet/rifle well do then staying with in those limits. Is all that is required to make any gun bullet combo work. If you can't stay with in them then use something that suits you.

What Dutch said, if you have the patience or luxury of waiting for the perfect shot, then in theory, you can use any bullet or caliber to take big game. I almost never stand hunt so my shots on big game can come from any practical angle. I like the confidence of prem. bullets for big game unless heavy for caliber bullets are used for deer/antelope size game. It works for me, but everyone has a preference.

I won't use anything less than a "conventional" bullet on deer.

I've seen ballistic tip bullets blow up twice on small deers shoulders, and the (limited) tests I've done with them don't impress me. I have seen a deer DROP from getting hit in the ribcage by one.

Every year, thousands of deer drop to BT's, but it isn't my preference.

Factor in that there are sometimes grizzlies around, and you might get a shot at a moose, and I favour the premiums.

Bullets are so cheap that you might as well use premiums. Even if I go for a short drive to get to a hunting area, it still costs $5 in gas...

Even Failsafes and X bullets are less than a dollar each. Partitions are less.

There is just no way for me to understand why anyone would advocate using fragile bullets at high velocity for big game. It defies everything I have learned in 30+ years of hunting and study of bullet design and it's effect on game.

HerrBerg -- I do not belong to the group that shoot frigile bullets at awesome velocities. I do belong to the group that shoot bullets at awesome speeds, therefore I am real picky about the bullets I shoot. For Deer sized game and down I shoot the tougher standard bullets, the Hornady Interlock or Sierra Gameking, etc. Animals larger than Deer get only premiums that shoot with consistent accuracy in my rifles. I will typically try North Fork, Nosler Partition or Partition Gold, Barnes X or XLC, Swift A-Frame, tweaking until the most accurate load reveals itself. I hunt Alaska, Canada and the Western U.S. and take the shot that presents itself. Good shooting.

If everything goes right, then the fast fragile bullets are dramatic killers, I think we'll all agree on that point. The flip side is, if things go wrong, they are dramatic wounders.

It just depends on how people approach their choices. I personally prefer medium bores, moderate velocities, and well contstucted heavy for caliber bullets.

I can understand the approach to the light fast croud, I just don't personally take that approach.

I'm not sure I would say "many" posters use lightweight bullets. My smallest hunting round is a 270, I use the lightweight bullets of 130-140 grains for that one mostly on small antelope size game or culling spikes and does.

My 300 WinMag shoots 165 gr. Hornady Interloks, I use it when I know I'll be shooting at longer ranges, up to say 300 yds.

Everything else are medium to heavy for caliber, 308-150gr., 30'06-180 gr., 338 WinMag 250 gr., 7.65 Argentine-180 gr., 7x57-154 gr.. All of these I'm using what I consider to be normal bullets, ie. Hornady Interloks and Sierra Gamekings. I have some 338/250gr. Barnes X bullets I bought from Jeffeoso to try but haven't gotten around to it yet.

I know maybe two people personally who shoot deer size game with 22 centerfires, one Swift and one 22-250. They have custom barrels to stabilize heavier bullets and shoot pretty well. They both also have heavier rifles they use sometimes. Other than those two the many dozens of hunters I shoot with personally all use medium calibers and medium bullet weights.

It is possible to make an intelligent and informed decision about the animals you hunt and the habitat you find them in and to come up with a bullet/velocity combination that works better than the accepted standard.

Dramatic kills, laser trajectory etc IMHO opinion are not such great reasons for varmint bullets in a hunting situation. Moderate velocity, reduced recoil and muzzle flip whilst retaining reasonable expansion and reducing unwanted overpenetration is. I would be happier stalking roe with my 6.5x55 and 100gr ballistic tips at 2,900fps than with 156gr at 2,550fps.

HerrBerg,

I think bullet selection and cartridges used are dependant on what the objective is.

I do cull hunt whitetail doe using a 22 CHeetah MK 1, pushing a 52gr bullet at 4280 FPS. No, its not a heavy bullet but it does offer me something that my other rifles don't. I will explain: I use this rifle to varmint hunt all summer, killing woodchucks to 660 yards - my best kill to date. I have a 6 to 24 X 50 target scope on that rifle. I have all my "come-ups" worked out to 700 yards for that rifle. Because of the speed and flatness and accuracy of that rifle/bullet combo I can place the shot within a couple of inches on a deer 99% of the time - out to 400 yards. I go for a double lung, broadside shot ONLY. I shoot off a swivel bench, front rest, rear bag for doe the same as I do for woodchucks. Of all the deer I have killed with that combo, out to 400 yards, not one has gone more then a few steps, most drop right on the spot.

Is a 22 ideal for deer? I say no. I use my 22 set-up because of my confidence and accuracy the rifle has and I practice a lot with it.

I like light for caliber bullets, in most cases. I like this set-up because of the higher initial velocities and flatness a lighter bullet offers - to a given distance. If my max distance for my carry rifle is 400 yards and I can load up a 127gr EXP Groove Bullet to shoot dead on to 400 yards, without any hold over, I prefer that to using a heavier bullet whereby I would have to guess at holdover beyond 300 yards. The added velocity shoots flatter to 400 yards then a heavier bullet. Groove Bullets aren't going to come apart (explode) at closer ranges like some other bullets. So, I have the best of both worlds. I can shoot a deer at close range or further out and know my bullet is still going to perform.

If I always hunted where my shots on deer would NEVER exceed 100 yards I would of never sold the Marlin lever gun I had chambered for 35 rem.

It depends on the type of hunting one does, where one hunts and their desired performance. We are all lucky in that we have so many choices. As long as one practices and is confident in their choices and hunts within those parameters then we all get to enjoy the great outdoors.

Don

There are no "bad" bullets, but there is bad bullet placement.

HerrBerg

You are teasing me again
I guess the reason in the Scandinavian countires are the loss of meat.
Some "freezer hunters" are fanatic about one or two meatballs getting lost beacause of the caliber or the choice of bullet. They piss and wind about that all the time

I don't care about it, better to get the animal down properly and humane than looseing a bit extra meat. I have meet people who have down loaded their ammo in the belive that is will be more effective and give less meat loss.

My buddies dog's likes to get a part of "lost" meat too

/ JOHAN

HerrBerg, "...I have yet to understand some people's requirement that a shot should drop the game in its tracks even for lung shots, people seem to go to great lengths to achieve that and I just can't get it. ...

Are US hunters more anxious about the game walking some 20-60 meters before dying?

No pun intended, sorry if I hurt anyones feelings here,..."

Hey HerrBerg, Taking them in reverse order, I've seen nothing you've posted that should "hurt anyone's feelings". Looks like good legitimate questions concerning something you really don't understand about some of "our" hunting conditions.

I'm only speaking for us Southeastern USA hunters when I say quite often our Deer Season is "Open" when the temperature is running 100+deg. And our understory is very very dense. In some places, you can not see a Deer laying on the ground 2 meters from you due to Briers, Weeds, Vines, Bushes, etc. Same can be said in the fields "if" the Deer make it out into the Cotton or Beans, which grow 4-5 feet tall and overlap the open furrows.

Due to this, if it takes awhile to locate the Game, the meat can begin turning bad, or "gamey" as we say over here - basically spoiled.

We like to have the hide off, guts out and the carcass in the cooler as soon as possible after the shot. My goal it to have it done in 30-40 minutes. The more time I spend looking for the Game, the more time it takes to reach the cooler.

So, it is a real advantage to have the Deer drop-in-their-tracks(time wise) on some of the land I hunt.

...

Never seen a "Bad" bullet. Have seen a good many poor choices in bullets though.

I've used Light for Caliber, Heavy for Caliber and the Natural Bullet Weight for a specific Caliber. The Light end "has more potential" to create wounded Game than the other two "IF" things don't go just right. The Heavy end will eventually kill, but the Game may go to the next County if enough energy is not transfered during Impact. That leaves the Natural Bullet Weight for the specific Caliber which is the best choice for my hunting.

[ 04-28-2003, 04:01: Message edited by: Hot Core ]

Herrberg

Your post could be even worded to "good velocity and bad" seeing that there is a direct relationship between the performance and velocity of any given bullet.

Bullets designed for smaller game(btips,game kings) like deer will peform as intended ontil you push them too fast and then you can have them blow up on impact.

Bullets that are designed for larger game(barnes x, trophy boded) like moose and bison might not open up enough if they are moving too fast.

If your using a larger caliber rifle you can use standard bullets to take larger game but you have to keep the velocity at a modest range and go for the heavier weights.