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I do not agree. If you have shot and missed ot worse cripled the animal you have somehow f***** up. To long shot, moving game, small branches you didn't see or something. An yes this will probably happen to everyone if you hunt long enough but to say it is nothing to sweat about pisses me off. I see no difference in "Bubba" who buys his rifle at walmart and cannot hit a barn from the inside and the one crippeling an animal risking a 600y shot. The first guy should have gonne to the range more, the latter should take an ethics class. Both f*** up and the result is a cripple. Off course if you ask a deer it's much better to be crippled from one opposed to the other...  We are supposed to be out there killing game fast and efficiently. In my world the hunt is supposed to be over when the blast is heard. If you go into the field with that in mind a lot of what I consider BS would go away. Do as in Africa, charge people for missed shots as well. Would remove the iffy shots from all kinds of hunters. | |||
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i think that we can all agree that there should be skill and judgement in shooting at game; the big difference that i see boils down to this: some of us respect the game we are hunting, and some do not. period. each shooter/hunter/whatever knows what side of the fence that they are on, and their actions, words and attitudes are a reflection of which side of the fence they are on. | |||
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Quote: I've never heard of that in Africa, at least not in South Africa, Zimbabwe, and Tanzania. It is very common in Europe, and on some estancias in Argentina, like Parque Diana. George | |||
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Quote: Oh, I didn't overlook it at all!! Correct me if i'm wrong, but, you're saying that if conditions are ideal (i.e.- little or no wind) in the spot from which you're about to shoot, then you assume the conditions are identical over 1/4 mile away where your target is standing??!?!? I think that ideology speaks for itself! 35W | |||
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HI, Thanks for asking George,I am happy here it is very nice,Kev | |||
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Quote: When you are shooting over a flat agricultural field where 95% of my hunting takes place,conditions are virtually identical to those of shooting range.There are no canyons or steep rises and thermals are virtually non existant.There is also almost always trees with leaves or tall grass along the field borders to use to better judge the presence of wind.Again pay attention to my term"ideal conditions". You can create all the what if's and worst case scenarios that you wish to but the fact is that in 33 years of big game hunting and ten species of north american big game harvested, I have never wounded and lost a game animal. | |||
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" think that we can all agree that there should be skill and judgement in shooting at game; the big difference that i see boils down to this: some of us respect the game we are hunting, and some do not. period. each shooter/hunter/whatever knows what side of the fence that they are on, and their actions, words and attitudes are a reflection of which side of the fence they are on. " Tasu, Western, and Beeman said it best. Some people have ethics and morals and some don't. Here in Utah there is a push for a "You draw blood, that is your animal" law. Unenforceable, most likely. Needed to guide those with a conscience, Yes. | |||
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George: I think the guy meant wounding, and you know very well that if you wound an animal in Africa, you buy it. One drop of blood is all it takes. | |||
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If your coyote crack is at me, , what I meant was the few times I have lost an animal, I felt like a real royal heal. I dont try to take risk shots, and as such, have had only a few cripples in my 42 years of hunting. The coyote logic was to give me some solace on having lost an animal. I also suspect your 243 wasnt loaded with a decent bullet. In the early days of introduction, the 243 was loaded with 85 grain and less "varmint' bullets. Alot of people raved over it's speed (velocity), and as such, used those loads on deer, only to find out, they wouldnt do a good job on deer. It was exactly that scenerio that gave the 243 a bad reputation that it frankly does not deserve. If that isnt the case, then you must have been doing exactly what you seem to be preaching against, taking a low probability shot. 243's loaded with a "deer" bullet do just fine on deer size game at 300 yards or less. | |||
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A 105gr Speer Hot Core. And at that time, the .243 was thought to be absolute "lighting in a bottle" with much of the same bullshit hype that was used when the magnums came along. It wasn't too long before many of the users of the .243 discovered that their results weren't the same as those touted by the gun rag writers. I was very comfortable with the shot -it wasn't that far and the deer was trotting slowly, undisturbed. Later I checked and the scope was still on. I am confident had I been using one of my better deer cartridges, the mulie would have been brought to bag. However the rifle was new, Al Gore hadn't invented the internet yet so one had to kinda rely on what the gun mag hacks had to say, and I used a deer as a "test". As far as the coyote remark, the tone of your second post is certainly different than the first. | |||
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Quote: Tash,You know my thoughts on this matter. | |||
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LD wrote: Quote: I guess my question is...Do you want your question answered or a fight on the keyboards or alot of reply's? Girlie Men to some in people gets an ammediate reply.Poor choice of words I assume but you probaly got what you wanted...Lots of argueing on the internet on bull pucky...Come out to Idaho and live the life and not be a "Week-end" warriour and you wouldn't have to ask such a foolish question.Your lacking in "Actual" experience... Jayco | |||
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Quote: What makes you think I'm a weekend warrior? I hunt an average of 80-100 full days a year. Flinging baseless insults because you're angry?... Why?  I've lived in and hunted 11 states (including Colorado and Illinois) and although Florida isn't nearly the best state I ever hunted in, we have very liberal seasons and a BUNCH of huntable land. What I wanted was to expose the undercurrent that seems to be growing here of people that seem to think that it's not OK to shoot at game unless the hunter plays by their rules and takes absolutely no chances. I say this is a philosophy that is common to city dwelling "girlie men" that have been spending spending too much time at the keyboard and too little time in the woods paying attention to how "most" hunters act. I think it's patently silly to expect the average hunter that can only afford to devote a few short days a year to hunting, to attempt to live up to their unrealistic standards of never missing or wounding game. Most people just don't have the time to prepare like many of us here on AR seem to have, and if we constantly criticize them (rather than encourage and help them) we'll drive them away from hunting and eventually find ourselves all alone and will surely lose the fight to protect our hunting rights. That's what I've been saying all along but the knee jerk response of some of the people here is to just attack me and protest vociferously that they aren't "girlie men"... Makes the casual observer wonder why they're so upset. Could it be that the shoe is a good fit? Poor choice of words? Perhaps.... But there you have it... Letting yourself get upset by a few words on a computer screen that weren't even directed at you is not healthy and flinging insults at me because I mentioned "girlie men" makes one look a bit childish. Don't you agree? $bob$ | |||
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Quote: I happen to mostly agree with you and think that it's a moral issue but I have a serious question.... Don't you think that we will drive away the weekend warrior type hunter if we continue with this policy? Don't we need them as allies in this war to preserve our hunting rights? This type of policy and attitude will surely drive away a LOT of hunters and we've already lost millions and are in danger of losing ALL our hunting rights. I think we need to ENCOURAGE hunters to hunt... Not make it so difficult that they can't possibly do it with the time they can afford to dedicate to it. Forget the "girlie men" comment... Do some serious soul searching and think about the fact that this sight gets millions of hits and of how, what you are saying, will be recieved by the "average" hunter. Just a heads up and food for thought. Sincerely, $bob$ | |||
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There is obviously a difference between making a point and being a jerk about it. Of course the whole "Girlie Man" comment was going to draw more reaction than debate. I am sure you realize you would have had a lot more success making your point if it didn't at least look like you were trying to personally insult everyone that disagrees with you. FWIW, I agree with about half of what you are trying to say. Wounding a game animal will happen. One shouldn't beat oneself up about it, unless it is becoming a pattern! My Pa used to say that anyone that doesn't miss, or has never wounded an animal that got away, hasn't hunted enough. There is some truth to that...shit happens and we're not all perfect. He also used to say that there are three types of hunters... 1) those that have made a bad shot and can admit it, 2) those that have made a bad shot and lie about it, and 3) those that will make a bad shot and become one of 1) or 2). FWIW, he was a helluva marksman and might have wounded and lost 1 or 2 animals in 35+ years of hunting. The flip side is that I do believe that it is absolutely wrong to go to the field thinking its OK to wound an animal, or allow it to suffer any longer than is humanly possible for you to end its suffering. Wounding is not OK. It should make you feel terrible. But if you made an honest mistake (and learned from it!), or something happened outside of your control, you should be able to get yourself right about it. Regards, Canuck | |||
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Good points Canuck. Here is a short story of an elk hunt this past year. An aquaintance of mine drew a coveted Archery elk tag here in Utah. He scouted lots and practiced more. When his hunt rolled around he stuck a 370s type bull, looked for it for 3 days and never found it. A different hunter saw the bull on day three and told them where the bull was. While looking for the bull, he stuck another 340s bull. After searching for about 5 days, for either elk he made a decision to shoot another, which he never recovered. Now that is 3 elk stuck and most likely dead. He took the opportunity away from 2 other people, because he didn't feel enough remorse after the first wounded animal to finish what he started. That attitude effects everyone. How someone feels after wounding an animal makes or breaks our future as hunters. Antis hear these types of stories all the time and use them against our cause. The lack of respect for the animals by hunters puts us in as much jeopardy as loosing a few bubbas from the sport. I never have tried to put my ideas on others' shoulders, this is just my opinion. In our camp, if you draw blood then you punch your tag. Just how we do it. | |||
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Good Post Canuck! I guess one of the things that gripes my goat the most about some hunters is that alot of guys will not look very hard for a animal they've shot at. I've noticed over the years that alot of hunters will shoot at an animal, walk over to where they "thought" it was standing, and if it aint laying there or if there isn't a huge blood trail they will not even look for it. That just totally gets under my skin. If you are going to take the time and do the work it takes to hunt God's beautiful creations, then you should give it your very best efforts to recover the game you shoot. How many times have you guys shot a deer and not found blood for 20-60 yards from impact? It happens. Alot of guys just go home when they cant find blood and alot of guys will only follow blood for a little piece before giving up .When I shoot an animal, I will spend hours tracking through whatever elements come my way. Even if I chalk it up to a clean miss, I will seriously study the area a make sure before I pull out. I think as the practiced marksman that many of us are that we know wether we hit or miss whenever the trigger breaks. That is assuming you know your limitations and your equipment. God Bless! Reloader | |||
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Quote: Right.. Its pretty much a given that none of us are going to slit our wrists or pull a Ghandi when and if we do happen to screw up and/or loose an animal. Whether or not it bothers us "a lot" is more of a personal matter than something we need to hold hands and talk about. But if you think about it, there is a fine line between not giving a shit about loosing a wounded animal and poaching. Nelsonted said: "We have a responsibility to the animals we hunt. Its not something to take lightly." That pretty much sums it up IMO. | |||
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gene - welcome to AR! this is a pretty good place, but keep your head low and watch for flying frying pans!  | |||
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Quote: yo, ahhhh-nold - are you seriously calling jack o'connor a city-dwelling "girlie man?" because if you are, i would submit that you, sir, are a fuckwit. | |||
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Tas, I think you hit it right on the spot. It is about respect for the game and not some competition. There is not anyone here that is hunting to keep themselves or their family from starving. Each hunter does know what side of the fence they are on no matter how they try to justify their actions.>John | |||
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Quote: Gee... Don't remember even mentioning him... I DO remember that he made a living writing books and articles for magazines but I haven't read them in years and years. Hope you feel better now that you're resorted to name calling...  <Added Later> Tas... Have you figured out yet why you are so upset? $bob$ | |||
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Quote: FOR THE record, I would never take a 600yd shot across a canyon at an Elk with a .300 Weatherby. I would not take that shot with my .340Weatherby and the load it is set up for. I would NOT shoot that Elk if it was at only 100yds either, NOT because it is an "impossible" shot, but because I would not shoot anything as big and as tough as an Elk with the load I use for caribou and deer. Any bigger then that is usually Moose and I usually go to the .375H&H, and I only push the .375H&H to 500yds. The .340 is adequate for Elk, BUT, I just don't have the faith in the BULLET to do what I would want it to do. The rifle is set up for the Sierra 250gr GameKing. It shoots like a match bullet and will group subminute, or, all rounds inside of 12" for you nonroup shooters, out to 1200yds. (haven't had a chance to try it at the 1700yd spot yet, but don't expect much as it is coming back to subsonic along the way.) BUT, I think the bullet is too fragile for tougher game like Elk or Moose. Until I go to the loading bench and with a new bullet and load and tweak, then run penetration test through my bullet box and see how it works out, and shoot it all the way out to whereever....which is usually at least 800yds(something I am working on with some North Fork bullets) and plot out the performance, all the Elk at 10 feet to 600yds and beyond are safe, so don't worry about it. (yeah, I know there is some great factory ammo out there with premium bullets that are "bulletproof" performers but this is what I do to satisfy MY conditions for taking game.) | |||
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Quote: I HATE BOWHUNTERS!!!!!!!!!!!!.. ok, there I said it. I know they have "rights" and that we are all "hunters" but MAN do they lose/waste/spoil game. One of the perks of being a cop for so long, other then being paid to hunt the MOST "dangerous" game in one of the most dangerous cities in the United States, was I had lots of hunting and free time.(you accumulate and burn LOTS of comp time in the ghetto. 8PM - 4AM with Tues and Wed off, ya gotta do it to appreciate it.) After the "flatlanders" would leave the woods after the weekend slaughters of openning day, rifle or bow, I would have a chance to get out and walk the woods. Bow season lasts... forever... in Mich(Oct 1st until Dec 31st with a break for rifle for 2 weeks. Even then you can still bow hunt but you need a gun license to be out with your bow) and rifle season lasts 2 weeks. I would find 3-4 times as many unfound dead deer from bow hunters then rifle hunters, and bow hunters make up a minor fraction of the rifle hunters. I don't know how many times I have listened to the "I hit one but lost it stories" several times from the same "hunter" in the same season. ALways with the "I looked, but I couldn't find it" story. I have found deer with canatalope size exit holes in them during rifle season, and no one found them???? I have found deer with arrow shoot through holes in them probably 3 days after they were hit with still more then enough blood trail back to take them back to the place where they were shot... and no one could find them???? Folks want to talk "ethics", ethics is NOT shooting anything you will not work relentlessly to recover, only after having taken all precautions and planning to NOT have to look for it after you shoot it. OR If you think it is "expected" for the animal to break and run for a ways after you make a "killing" shot, then you need to shoot it with something BIGGER. | |||
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