I stole this qoute from CCM Doc, impressive! But how many of you have experienced the same, and with which calibers and with what animals?

"PS One story - In all my years of hunting deer with a variety of calibers, I had never seen one knocked off of its feet until this past year. 25 yards away, I shot him (155lbs field dressed) with the .450 Marlin and it was if he was hit by a linebacker - thrown sideways and down. Until that moment, I never really believed it could happen. I now believe in "knock down" in the literal sense."

I was elk hunting in Colo a couple of years ago when my friend wounded an elk which we spotted standing in the oak brush across the canyon. We couldn't get any closer because we wouldn't be able to keep the elk in sight so he decided to shoot from where we were. We lasered it at 425yds and he took a good solid rest as I spotted with my binocs. The 7mmSTW took that elk right off his feet- I don't mean he fell over I mean he rotated off of his feet then dropped staight down. Not bad for a varmint round.

The only thing I ever knocked off its feet was a coyote I shot with my .303. At the hit it rotated and hit almost feet up. Whats even more amazing was that the coyote got back up on 3 legs and tried to get away.

Brett

I knocked a doe plum off her feet once with a .257 Roberts. It was a lung shot, so I was quite surprised. I also witnessed a doe hit chest-on with a .338 and she darn near flipped end over end. Everything else that ever dropped in it's tracks was the result of a spine shot.

If you need to 'enjoy' knock down power, or dramatic kills, then go shoot small varmints with a 223 or 22/250 and a hollowpoint bullet.

Last weekend, I hit a couple of ground squirrels at 200 yds, that were just Standing Up besides their holes surveying their surroundings. A Winchester 46 grain Hollow Point, hit them and literally, half of them blew about 10 to 15 feet to the left and the other half blew the same distance to the right.

for larger game, just downing them as fast is possible, preferably on the spot, is just fine for me. I don't need them to do flips or sommersaults.

A big bore, like a 444 Marlin with a Hollow Point, like a 300 grain X TP sure does a fast job of downing them, but it also wastes about 10 to 15 pounds of hamburger as it makes a hole in them the size of a bowling ball.

Let's see. I have shot several animals and seen animals shot that were knock off their feet right at impact.

I once shot a forkhorn whitetailed deer with a 50 cal. black powder muzzel loader with a 400 grain lead slug. I was walking across an open field in Oklahoma with a wood lot on the off side and a deer ran out of the woodline stright at me. I shot him in the brisket at 35 yards and he almost did a backflip.

On a trip to RSA I shot a fast running impala with a 300 grain Hornady round nosed soft pointed bullet out of my .378 Weatherby and hit the poor bastard at the base of the neck and he absolutely stopped in mid-air. He crashed to the ground. That was a lucky shot, but I'll take it.

On the same trip I shot a duiker at 15 yards with the same gun and bullet but I would have to say that the animal was not knocked off of its feet so much as it literally exploded, most of it did anyway...duikers don't count though, do they? There were at least two other animals that dropped like a box of rocks on that trip (another impala and a blesbuck).

My nephew shot a huge bull caribou this past September up on the upper Noatak River and he absolutley lifted that animal off the ground and flattened it. My nephew was shooting a .338 Win mag with .210 gr. NPs and hit the animal in front of the shoulder where the neck meets it. Even though we were on open tundra, his bull went down so fast that my nephew thought he had missed it and was ready to shoot another caribou.

I think there are other times that I can remember beasts being knocked off their feet, but these are the ones I can think of pretty easy.

Sorry but I have to disagree. There is no shoulder fired rifle that has the ability to knock a big game animal off it's feet. If there was the Newton's laws of physics would mean the same thing would happen to the shooter. Try this. Fill a burlap bag with 100 pounds of sand (The weight of a small deer or antelope). Place it on a saw horse. Step back at any distance you choose and shoot it with whatever round you want and see how far it moves. I too have seen dramatic kills on animals in the field. They are the result of a massive reaction by an animals nervous system to the trauma of a bullet. They are not the result of a bullet physically knocking an animal down.

Jeff

Skibum has the right answer.

That said I have seen some animals do pretty wierd things.
A roebuck I shot at 180m with a 6PPC on the joint of the front shoulder did an almost perfect forward sommersault and landed on it's belly in the same place it had been standing. Two witnesses.

A definite knock down was a dassie shot in Zimbabwe with my .375H&H.
The little blighter was sent flying into the air spinning. Maybe partly energy, partly reaction on the animals part.

BTW the dassie was not even that badly shot up, the taxidermist was able to repair it for a full mount.

If you shoot explosive bullets at speeds above 3200 fps, you will see them "knocked off their feet" quite often. When you get a full energy transfer, it will smooth knock em' flat.


If you shoot "Hard to destruct" bullets, most of the time you cant even tell if they have been hit.


Reloader

I agree with SkiBum, most of the "spectacular" kills I've witnessed have been the result of spine shots or high velocity slugs that break apart at impact. IF a round could knock a 200 pound target off it's feet it would do the same to she shooter as well. Those pesky Laws of Physics.

At the other end of this subject....... How many animals have you seen take a high powered bullet and NOT show any sign of being hit?? I've seen that quite often with elk.

They turn into a "bullet sponge" until they finally figure out they are dead and fall over.

FN in MT

I've seen both situations.
Had an antelope flip over when shot with a .270 140gr Hornady, it was pretty neat. I agree with the nervous system reaction being the cause.
Had a cow elk take two shots from a 7RM and just quit trotting and slowed to a walk and started walking in a circle, both were boileroom hits. Fell down about a minute later.

I have seen this phenominum happen with small and large calibers and its bunk...What you see is a reaction to an action...

A 400 gr. bullet will not knock a 300 pound animal down, a fright train will, thats realistic..

I shot a mule deer doe in the head one time with a 22 wrf and she jumped in the air and flipped over sideways and landed on her back with all four feet stright up..Nothing on earth would have convienced me the 22wrf didn't have knock down or wasn't the worlds most powerfull deer gun.

I have shot antelope and large animals with my 416, 505, 404, 470 and a host of other calibers that make a 450 Marlin look like Ned in the First Reader, and some of these animals ran a hundred yards..

Bottom line is knock down is proven hooey...it does not exist in the world of hunting rifles, only in missles and 500 pound bombs.

I knocked one big ass buck down one time with my K1500 Chevy

Now that is knock down power Jimmy. Last one I got like that was with a Datsun B210. A lot lighter but I was compensating by maintaining high velocity. It worked on the deer but would have preferred a car that held together a little better. My current Z71 Tahoe with brush guard should provide superior knock down and better weight retention. Hopefully I never get to test the ballistics of my Harley.

Jeff

jeff, trust me on the Harley part, penetration is very good, messy but good. The bonded frame is not worth a tinker's damn and the recovery is slow (if at all, 8 month's)

Now a bear under the frame of your PU, still alive and very pissed in the dark is a whole nother story and the only damn weapon ya got is a pocket knife. I was very thankful to have a 4X4

I have to agree w/ Skibum & Frank N., there is NO shoulder fired weapon that will "knock" down a deer size animal. Maybe coyote size, but once you exceed 100# it's where the bullet lands & what the bullet does when it gets there.

Come on guys!

You cant honestly say that a 150# animal could take the entire 3000+ ft lbs of energy produced by a magnum rifle w/ a good expander (Bal. Tips, SSTs, etc.) w/o being knocked off their feet.

Been there, done that.

Reloader

That can't happen as a pure reaction to the hit of the bullet in and of it's self. The reaction is the nervous system reacting to the massive trauma. Ever had a doctor thump your knee same thing. To explain why what you ask CAN�T happen. First off the bullet itself doesn�t have the mass to over come the mass of the deer. Second the hide of the deer doesn�t have enough resistance to offer a suitable transmitter of all this energy you talk about. That is why we can shoot holes in animals. Even if the hide could stop the bullet the mass still isn�t great enough, even moving at 3000FPS, to over come the mass of the deer. The only way you can move things with bullets is to over come the mass of the object. And BTY Superman could never stop a runaway train by standing in front of it SO THERE!!!

Reloader, reread Skibum's post. If you shoot a 100# solid object point blank, say a sack of sand, it may fall over , but it won't be "flattened" by the 3000# + energy transfer. It just doesn't happen that way.

When I was a kid, I had a paper route on the northwest edge of Oklahoma City. About 0500 one Saturday morning I was walking across the fire station yard when I saw a cottontail. Almost as a reflex, I tagged him with a tighty rolled Oklahoman & Times at short range. He jumped about four feet straight up in the air and hit the ground running, probably due to surprise more than anything.

So far, it's been one of the most satisfying shots I've ever fired. Okie John

Reloader,

Newton's 2nd law of Physics states "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction". That means the same force applied to a bullet when a rifle is fired is also applied through the rifle to the shooter as recoil. If the bullet had enough energy to "knock a deer off it's feet" the recoil would do the same thing to the shooter. It can be no other way.

Jeff

Did any of you take Physics in college?

Come on guys, If you dont think an animal can be knocked off their feet, you might want to study up alittle.

So, you actually think that a 150# animal that has been hit by say a 300 Wby Mag. and a 165 grn bal. tip @ close range could not be knocked down if the bullet didn't exit. Well, I have news for ya, it aint gonna happen. That animal just absorbed every ounce of energy.

Skibum, if you think there is as much energy on each end of the gun you must not be too familar w/ firearms. Lets see, 4000 ft-lbs out of the muzzle and about 120 ft-lbs of recoil. Come on!

I cant believe you guys believe this. Ask any Bullet lab expert, No, better yet, ask someone who has been shot w/ a bullet proof vest on. If a guy gets shot w/ a 357 mag while wearing a bullet proof vest, you cant tell me it wouldn't knock him down. Imagine the same situation w/ a 300 Wby mag.(That is if he had something tuff enough to stop the bullet). I personally have known people who have been shot w/ bullet proof vest and small cal rounds. It aint pretty.

Newton is right, but, you are not getting his meaning. You didn't take velocity into the equation. You are taking an object(a deer) of no velocity but, good mass and Pushing something of far less mass but, W/ one heck of a velocity into the larger object. You just made such a great force w/ the smaller mass that the larger one does not have enough weight or mass to stop the force of the high speed object.

Now, Do you get the Picture?

It is perfectly possible to "Knock" small Big Game off of their feet. I have seen it done multiple times.


Reloader

Reloader...

Your problem is that you're missing the difference between Kinetic Energy and Momentum(quantity of motion).

Momentum is the measurement that must be used if you're seeking to calculate transfer of motion from one colliding object to another.

Momentu is the quantity measured by the use of the ballistic pendulum - a device specifically designed to measure the impact of a bullet upon a stationary object.
The validity of such calculations have been verified in military testing which included the shooting of suspended human cadavers.(LaGarde)

Julian Hatcher calculated that if a .44 magnum projectile with a muzzle energy of over 1300 ft-lbs was fired into a 200 pound man, the velocity imparted to the man (even assuming 100% transfer of momentum) is a mere 0.27 feet/second..... or a mere fraction of normal walking pace.

.44Mags don't knock people down..... except maybe in Hollywood.

Regards....... Peter

cooch, You are not getting the meaning either,

When they do bullet testing the bullets penetrate through the object therfore most energy is still with the bullet.

We are also not talking 44 mag on 200# humans, we are talking Big Magnum Rifles on 150# deer w/ a total energy transfer. That is much more energy on a much smaller object.

Might want to read up a little more.

Reloader

Reloader...

Don't be embarrassed. Apparently a lot of people think that.

As far as bullet-proof vests, what will happen when a man gets hit in the chest with a .357 mag?

What happens when a man gets hit in the chest with a 30-06 while wearing a ballistic plate on his chest?

Apparently you haven't seen the videos.

There is at least one manufacturer who will hold the revolver out and shoot himself in the chest.

Does he fall down? Well, no.

Maybe you should call him and tell him he can't stand up like that without even wobbling.

Also tell all those impala that they can't really take of running like a scared rabbit after absorbing a .375 H&H mag...

Might want to read up a little more.

Rick.

reloader is something else. he thinks that raking a running antelope with 4 shots (including one is the ass) to slow her down and then walking up to her and putting a fifth to the neck is great marksmanship and ok, as long as it is a doe.

No, not embarrased in the least bit.

Although, you must be.

Come on!

You just cant except the facts.

We are not talking handguns and once again you missed the "energy absorbsion" issue at hand. That imapla just got a hole punched through him and the energy went right on thru w/ the bullet.

ONCE AGAIN:

A 150# animal can not take the full impact of a Big Magnum rifle if the bullet doesn't exit and all of the energy is transfered to the animal.

Some people never learn and you just cant change their hard-headed thinking.

The facts are against ya.

Sorry,

Reloader

Tasunk,

You couln't hit an antelope at 350 yards wide open running if someone offered you money. I hit one. Ya cant say that.

Still licking your wounds huh.

Reloader

I have seen a lot of fall down power but no knock down power.

I have seen several small whitetails shot w/ Magnum rifle and bullets such as Bal. Tips or SSTS. On some of them at impact you would see nothing but, a white belly imediately when they were shot. Sometimes they wouldn't move another muscle and sometimes they would get up and run alittle ways before expiring.

From what some of these guys think, They jumped in the air, turned on their sides, and fell to the ground as a "Reflex" action. Then, they got up and ran off. All of this because of a reflex, HA HA. None ever, I mean ever has jumped, turned sideways, and landed in my direction.

From what some of you are saying, they could reflexively jump anywhere. Its funny how they always go the other way and how you see that white belly so quick.

Come on guys! Im not saying you are going to knock every deer in the woods down and you sure cant say anything if you have not ever witnessed them knocked down for yourselves, I am just saying IT DOES HAPPEN!

I think we have beat this one up enough. If some of you cant get out of your small little world and see facts, thats just your own problem and I'll let you work it out.

For me, "The Proof is in the Puddin'."


Good Luck!

Reloader

I think what has already been stated several times was the proposition of Roy Wby. I like an exit whole (a large one) w/ good blood trail. W/ proper bullet placement, that animal isn't going far, certainly less than 100 yds.

But Wby one a bullet moving at high velocity and a little bit fragile to enter the heart/lungs area and "denonate" or nearly so. Often animal exeriening this are knocked down, even if they get back up moment later.

The same affect is sometime acheived w/ bullets passing through the shoulder bone into the heart/lungs (the bone frag causing the detonation).

Thus, unless spine shot, Barnes X, Swift A-frame, even the Partition (though the front end is pretty fragile) ususally don't give "knock down" on anything more than 100-200 lbs.

I used to use 140 gr. Nosler Solid Base in my 7mag. I witnessed several black tail (in CA)and Muleys (NV & CO) knocked off their feet, especially when hitting the on side shoulder blade. Also had a cow elk (w/ 140 partition) taken off her feet w/ shoulder shot. However, she got up a couple of minutes later and needed another round to the neck to put her down for keeps.

Reloader,
I think people here are arguing 2 different points of detail. Yes, animals sometimes get knocked off their feet when hit. This is a result of a spinal truama induced by the direct impact to the nervous system of a projectile( either the bullet or bone or tissue displaced by it). If you hit a 250 lb man with a blackjack at the joint of the neck and shoulder he goes down like a sack of potatos, same effect. You are confused by the terms of physics, the difference between momentum and kinetic energy. When a ballistic tip goes to pieces and does not exit a deers chest, there are multiple components to the energy transfer including heat for instance. I don't think anyone here is saying that game doesn't drop at the shot sometimes but it is a reaction of a different nature. If the way you state your argument is true then ALL game hit by a bullet that did not exit would be knocked down, and we all know that that is not so. Perhaps you should not keep telling people to read up on it since you are missing some basic physics here. Once again I agree with alot of what you are saying and am not disparaging you or your marksmanship, just the points of your case.

Another interesting point on instant drops is written in The Perfect Shot. He theorizes that a bullet into the heart of an animal when the ventricle is full causes a massive blood pressure spike that effectively is like a massive stroke.

Kevin,



I am not talking about spinal shots. I am talking about behind or directly into the shoulder shots.



As to Physics, I am well versed in that area. I am a Professional Engineer and I didn't get As and Bs sleeping through Advanced Physics Classes. Therefore, you might want to read up alittle.



Apparently the guys in this arguement are the "penetration" hunters that shoot bullets that go in little and come out little (Carrying the energy right along w/ them). Those hunters cant even begin to argue the facts of Explosive Bullets. Dont kid your self, the game is going to get the full energy transfer if the bullet doesn't exit. I try to take game as quickly and effectively as possible, some guys just like to go on long blood trails and make them suffer.



Reloader



You guys are not going to dig your way out of this one.

Kevin,

Just what is your "education" and what is your occupation.

Oh, I made some typos, WOO HOO. Shoot me.

You must be perfect. I guess you know everything dont ya.

And thats right I am an Engineer, a Consturction Engineer. Your lack of education just showed when you talked about backhoes. You probably dont even know what any engineers do.

If it weren't for engineers, you wouldn't have these nice firarms that we discuss. And once again read up alittle.

If you don't like my Grammar, you can kiss my ass! I never said I was great at Literature.


I am going to go ahead and be the real man and let this lay.


I was simply trying to share my experiences w/ dozens of firearms and over 100 large game animals under my belt.

If anyone wants to listen to these less experienced hunters. Go ahead.

Good Luck!

Reloader

reloader is the idiot's idiot.

here is the solution to his drivel>> *** You are ignoring this user ***

Reloader:

I took a lot of physics in college. But this is high school physics. The principle involved is called conservation of momentum. Momentum equals mass times velocity. The momentum of the "system" (bullet plus the deer) is the same before and after impact. The mass of the bullet is so small compared to the mass of the deer plus the bullet, the bullet WILL NOT "Knock the deer over". (Although the deer may DROP instantly to the ground!). The foot-pounds of the bullet you refer to is KINETIC energy which is mass time velocity SQUARED...different concept.

Conduct the experiment yourself or ask your high school physics teacher.