iam going to ask the experts this one as i dont know anything about mule deer except what i have read in outdoor life and such.Is the population going down hill?can the game departments do anything to help the quality of the deer?are the really big heads almost non existant anymore?They are one of the most impressive trophys we have in north america and i can never understand why there is not some limit on the size of rack before it can be harvested.most all i see are small young deer,nothing like the one the lady shot on the indian reservation that was unreal!Also there was a buck called the justice buck i think that was never taken but the sheds were found and the buck was photograghed alive.Man that was some deer.Where is a good place to hunt trophy mule deer with outstanding racks,non-resident- without a guide or is this just wishful thinking?What is considered to be the top state for trophy mule deer?I have mule deer fever today -sorry!!!!! I want one...

Go to this site and search around. You will see some of the answers to your questions.

http://www.monstermuleys.info/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.pl

Thanks Kudu,Thats a great site.They have some nice ones on there!Looks like the mule deer have been doing ok,iam glad! they have one they think scores 407B&C.Man thats a dandy and a half!

BBhunter,
While I cannot speak for the rest of the west, I can let you in on what is going on in Wyoming. Much of the critical winter range, essentially is the most important habitat for mule deer is in poor shape. Several years of drought, oil and gas development, habitat fragmentation and loss of migration routes due to new roads and subdivisions, lack of range fires, and overgrazing on public lands is taking a toll.
Good habitat = strong healthy deer herds = big deer. Unlike what most people believe, predation is also offset by optimum habitat conditions.
You need several factors to have big mule deer. Bucks need to reach an age where they can produce a big rack. However, if the genetic ability and nutritional requirements are not there, the big deer aren't either. To reach this mature age, restrictions on license numbers (limited quota on the take) or large chunks of wild country are needed to give a buck a chance at surviving through a few hunting seasons.
The whole "four point or better" season is in my opinion not conducive in producing "big" deer. There has been some research done on this subject in Colorado that supports my opinion. Essentially, you shift all the hunting pressure on those deer with 4 points, which does not allow for the bucks to get to the age needed to become "trophy" quality (a two year old can have four points in a good year, kind of hard for him to reach 5 or 6 if he is dead). The other problem you have is that your illegal or accidental harvest of three point deer increases.
Deer the quality of which you're talking about are like 7' people. You watch TV, and see commercials with basketball stars who are 7' tall. Sure, you see it on TV and in magazines and you know they exist. But how often do you see a 7' person just walking around at the grocery store or pumping gas?? The same holds true of BIG deer. Sure they exist, but not in the numbers all the publicity and "Eastman's Hunting Journal" would like for you to believe. Utah, Colorado, and Wyoming all still have BIG mule deer, but you either need a lot of $$$ to access those very limited, private areas where those deer exist, a lot of time to scout and work the last few public land places you can find them, or a lot of luck and just happen to run across one in the field.

Unfortunately, everyone wants BIG deer, but while we are all sitting here typing away very few are doing anything about it. Join a conservation organization that actually puts money into habitat restoration and habitat improvement. Support regulations on housing development in critical habitats, encourage landowners to look into NRCS programs to help them sustain agricultural practices while at the same time enhance wildlife habitats...heck, pick up an additional tag and KILL A DOE!! Bucks and does eat the same thing in the winter...when that feed is limited, help the plant community and the other deer out! Ten strong and healthy deer are more productive than 20 starving ones.

All in all, truly big deer are still out there. Mule deer in the west are in trouble right now. If you want to kill one, you're going to have to put your time in. Good luck!!!

MG

Thanks madgoat,well said.I really know what you mean about 7foot tall people.I never see them!I read somewhere the mule deer keep getting in worse shape every year.I hope they can make a comeback.Fantastic animal!

I was down by Labarge and Big Piney last week, the snow is 2' to 3' deep. In some places deer that were bedded down you could just see the tips of thier ears above the snow.. They look pretty bad, thin and emaciated.

Then up here, dry as August,58 yesterday, no snow, and very little in the high country. What weird weather!

. Mule deer in the west are in trouble right now. If you want to kill one, you're going to have to put your time in. Good luck!!!

MG [/QUOTE]
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Madgoat,
Good post. What are your thoughts (others, too) of comments and conjectures made about the expansion in the range of the Whitetail (Co., Wy., Mt.) as being a contributor to the Mulies' decline?

DB, over the last few years there has been a LOT of talk about direct competition between whitetail and mule deer. Personally, I don't see it as being much of a factor in the decline of mule deer in the west.
It seems that changes in habitat are the key to this decline. Many of the places in western Wyoming where you have large mule deer herds it is difficult to find whitetails except along a few creek bottoms here and there. Many of these mule deer migrate hundreds of miles over the course of the year back and forth from winter and summer range. While whitetails do move a little, this type of large scale movement is unheard of.
The mule deer also prefer habitats in the winter that a whitetail would tend to avoid by their nature (south facing slopes, high blown off ridges, mountain mahogany stands, sage brush flats).
Mulies seem to prefer to use topography and distance to evade predation or a perceived threat, while whitetails as everyone knows can jump into a brush patch and dissappear.
Now I'm not saying this is how it is everywhere, just some observations I have made in western Wyoming. I'm also not saying that mule deer and whitetail don't eat the same items...they do (which is competition by definition), however, I don't think it is any more than goats, cattle, elk or sheep eat as well.
If you look on the eastern side of the state, the two species can be seen together in a alfalfa field eating comfortably, but I still don't think the whitetails are "pushing" the mule deer out. The eastern side of Wyoming experiences EHD outbreaks occasionally, which can wipe out your whitetail deer population and not make an impact on mule deer even though they can catch it as well. This is just a function of habitat preferences during the time these outbreaks occur. I also think that whitetails have the ability to coexist a lot better with disturbances (urban expansion) and are a lot better at adapting to different habitat conditions than mule deer can. I don't think I have ever heard of a mule deer east of the Mississippi.
I think this just comes down to the fact that whitetails can adapt to urban environments, disturbances, habitat conditions, and people problems a lot better than mule deer. I guess you could kind of consider them the "weed" of the deer family. Personally, I find both critters equally intriguing and fun to hunt.



MG

The area os Sask that i hunbt has both mulies and whitetail. Some years the mule deer population is down in comparison to that of whitetail and other years it is very strong. Winter mortality is a major factor in the population fluctuations It seems that there are subtle differences in how well they each winter. Mule deer are on a limited entry or draw system and have responded very well but I keep my fingers crossed as something , winter or possibly disease seems to cause wider swings in the mule deer population . Last fall I saw many more mulies than whitetails in the area I hunt but a few years ago they seemed to be in serious trouble.

It is so bad here in Colorado that the whole state is draw. So the brainchilds running the DOW admit that there is a shortage of deer, yet they still sell doe tags! Explain the logic behind that decision. In my opinion, if the herd is that bad, then stop hunting altogether for a couple of years. Back in the 80's you wouldn't believe the herds and quality of bucks I used to see when running my coyote trapline. Since then they banned trapping, and in 1986 they doubled the days of hunting. It went from something like 14 days total rifle to 26 days and they wondered why the herds dropped off.

Dogcatcher, I don't know what the conditions are like in Colorado, but most of the states in the west are experiencing one heck of a severe drought. Despite low deer numbers, the DOW is probably trying to harvest a few additional doe deer to keep them in check with the winter range's carrying capacity. You can't expect 10000 deer to survive on a winter range if there is only enough there to keep 5000 alive?
Give the country side a chance to recover and the deer will follow...most of this is up to mother nature and not us.

MG

Does your state plant food plots for the mule deer?My state plants food plots everywhere on state land.What is the limit and what is the estimated herd?We went something like 8yrs. without a doe day in some counties before they let does harvested.Limit was 2 bucks only.Now we have 2 bucks only but 12 deer limit.Whitetail herd estimated over a million.I think i read a deer herd can double in one year if left alone.We also have a 4 point on one side for one of the bucks,to take pressure off the 11/2 yr. olds.I though i wanted to hunt mule deer but if they are having a hard time i wouldnt shoot one.Sounds like non-residents are not really wanted either if they limit the numbers,why even have a non resident hunt?In my state a non-resident can hunt as long as anyone else and there is no limit on the numbers of non resident hunters for any species or seasons,maybe someone should look into the management and limits before its to late.If the game population is not healthy,why not set limit to one deer for a couple seasons and see if it helps?Close some areas to trophy only?Any suggestions?What would work the best?

I had to throw this one in,i feel like chris rock saying this but dang the florida panther and the mule deer have both been in bad shape for half my life,why cant they get the numbers up just a little,I mean man those are some nice animals and they have been teeter tootering on the population for years and years,cant the folks in charge do whatever it takes to help them make a comeback,just a little?I guess the mule deer are dependant on the land and the panther just doesnt have enough habitat in florida!They will probley just dwindle down more thru the years just like every thing else.Anyone remember quail and rabbit hunting ?It isnt like it use to be.Ducks have had a go of it also,i dont even shoot them anymore and grouse/woodcock hunting is all ways declineing,low populations and habitat loss.I guess you can by a license and spend your money even if there is really not much chance at game?Heck the demand for trout in my state is so huge they have to grow the fish,truck them to the designated stream and then the fisherman catch them after they have been dumped from a truck.

Blackbear, I think it is a national trend. This country caters to predators, not prey. Upland bird hunting in Colorado is a joke too.

Just to add a little more info, New Mexico went to a statewide draw with the exception that if you bring in written permission from a private landowner you can get a tag to hunt on their property only. The tag numbers shown on the proclamation still look pretty generous. Will probably still be less than hunters out than in prior years (hopefully less of the types that drink more beer than hunt).

I can tell you that here in Texas we have a 60,000 ranch (not high game fenced) outside of El Paso, and we have fantstic Mule Deer Hunting there. We have in past only done 4 Mule Deer hunts a year and have kept it for friends, family and business clients. We will now start to offer these 4 Mule Deer hunts exclusive to our clients. Last year we took the following Mule Deer. 191 B&C, 200 B&C 207 B&C and 209 B&C. So, I think this shows that we do have quality deer and it is not declining. Our hunts are 4-days at $7,500 guaranteed tag.

The State of Texas also allocates 8 Desert Big Horn Sheep permits and we normally 2-3 of them every year as well and we average around 165-175 B&C on those.