(I also posted this in that forum as well)

Hello. I don't think I've ever posted on the Canadian forum before. I usually go straight to Big Game Hunting. However, I just did my first 2 Canadian bear hunts: NB, and AB.

One problem that seems to be on the rise (and this is straight from my outfitters), is Canadians from one town hunting on outfitters without paying.

Example: My outfitter in Alberta had a group of hunters drive up from Calgary. They only wanted him to show them where the stands were and they'd pay him for the hunt only, no food or lodging, etc.

They agreed upon a price, and all 5 hunted for 3-4 days. On the next day, the outfitter called the hotel, and they'd already checked out. The outfitter called the one cell number he had and the guy (who made the agreement) stated that there were no bears and because the outfitter didn't "hold up his end of the agreement" they were not going to pay him.

Personally, I would have collected half up front which is what I find most outfitters do anyway, but the outfitter took this group on their word.

Now, here's the bad part: These same hunters come up and hunt when they want now because they know where the stands are and because it is public land, there's nothing the outfitter can do about it.

I personally think this is BAD hunter ethics and is unacceptable. Yet, there can be "sweet justice" according to the outfitter. Turns out that one of the guys fell from one of the 30 foot stands and died from injuries. A second one died of a heart attack while tracking a bear. According to the outfitter, this occurred a few years back.

That outfitter is eigther stringing you a line, or he's an idiot. He also may find his behind in court for charging a tresspass fee to residents hunting on public land.

Chuck

He never mentioned charging a "tresspass" fee. Rather, it was a "baiting fee" and it was an agreement between him and the other guys. I believe he called it "semi-guided."

Regardless, 2 of the original 5 are gone, but he related to me that he still sees them now and then in his treestands when taking hunters in.

He seemed quite sincere telling me this story, and his other hunter in camp was there when it all went down the first time. That hunter has been going back for 13 years.

How can he go to court for charging an "outfitters" fee just because the other guys are residents? I know that public hunting is public hunting but they agreed to pay him for a weeks hunt.

That sounds like a pretty wild story Doc: I have hunted in Alberta a couple of times over the years and love the place. But what you describe sounds odd. We hunted on public land most of the time and I had excellent guides who were also excellent hosts, for moose and for bear. I never heard a story like what you descibe. Especially about all the dead people at the end of your account. It sounds strange.

It sounded very strange to me too. I usually take stories like that with a grain of salt, but they are fun to share.

Trust me, there were a lot more stories I heard while there for a week. Some sounding very real, some quite bizzare.

The "deaths" that occurred were allegedly both a couple of men that were in their late 60's. I won't swear to it, but if I recall, one fellow died one year, the other died 2 years later.

Supposedly, the remaining 3 still travel up to northern AB and hunt "wherever"

That is the "story" I heard.

Keep in mind, I also had a similar story about the NB folks too, but just hunting stands, no deaths or weird crap.

I guide for an outfitter, mostly for birds, and get residents from NB ask me if they could hire me for just a day, answer - no. Good woodcock covers can be hard to find and if you show residents where they are you will find them occupied whenever you go to hunt them with clients. Not to mention the garbage they always seem to leave behind. I simply tell them,"I worked to find the covers, you'll have to"

I know of the same thing happening with bear baits and deer stands as well. Many people are too damn lazy to do their own field work and baiting so just find out where the outfitters hide their stands and use them. Our lodge has had to move baits a couple times because of this.

This is a prety common story in BC also. Most BC Outfitters will refuse to take residents out. They feel that they show them the ropes in an area and the next year they come back with all their friends.

Wouldn't it be illegal for the residents to use the Outfitters tree stands?

I gotta agree with Chuck in that it sounds a bit fishy.

The guy ain't too bright in not charging a guiding fee up front. Further, if a guy fell out of a treestand that he built (whether he paid to use it or not), he may be partly liable for his death.

I could go on and on... but I smell

I emailed the outfitter and asked him some more specifics about the story.

Turns out, the hunter that fell from the stand was not hunting this particular outfitters stand, but one of his ex-guide's stands that is also now an outfitter.

To add detail to the story, apparently there are also plenty of natives that drive and hunt near the drop off locations of the paying hunters. The natives tend to watch over cut strips to try and catch game crossing them heading to the baits.

I saw 3 natives in a truck one evening but they never stopped near me. I was about 100 yards off the gravel road. We passed them going in. They passed by maybe 3 times in 6 hours.

If the guys were Alberta residents, the outfitter does not use up an allocation for the hunt. Allocations are for non-residents(Canadian) and non-resident alien (US)clients.

The only fee that I think could be charged is if the outfitter wanted to rent out his treestand or charge a fee for the baiting of the site.. We can not charge or pay for access in Alberta ( private and crown land). Natives mostly care about the moose, or just guys trying to piss off the outfitters' clients.

But if the sites are on crown land-the outfitter has no more right to them then you or I.

quote:

Originally posted by SHOOTIST:
But if the sites are on crown land-the outfitter has no more right to them then you or I.

Of course. I'm not talking about "rights."

I'm talking about good hunting ethics. It is not cool to let someone else build a stand, bait it for more than a month, bring in nonres. hunters for a fee, and have someone else already sitting in the stand.

I could never do that to someone else.

If they are the outfitters tree stands then why dosen't he kick them out? Even if they are on public land you cannot use someone elses treestand without permission.

quote:

Originally posted by Oscar Makonka:
If they are the outfitters tree stands then why dosen't he kick them out? Even if they are on public land you cannot use someone elses treestand without permission.

Well that is the first I've heard of that. That is not what was said in camp. They said, "there's not a damn thing we can do about it."

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:

quote:

Originally posted by SHOOTIST:
But if the sites are on crown land-the outfitter has no more right to them then you or I.

Of course. I'm not talking about "rights."

I'm talking about good hunting ethics. It is not cool to let someone else build a stand, bait it for more than a month, bring in nonres. hunters for a fee, and have someone else already sitting in the stand.

I could never do that to someone else.

I agree totaly

quote:

Originally posted by Oscar Makonka:
If they are the outfitters tree stands then why dosen't he kick them out? Even if they are on public land you cannot use someone elses treestand without permission.

All they can do is take their tree stand down-they only own the stand-not the tree it's in.
But no matter how you slice it it was a dirty thing for them to do. I'm sure the outfitter learned from this and now wants money up front.

Legally the tree stand, or tower stand is the property of the outfitter. He has to carry liability insurance for his clients. The outfitter may place a sign saying no tresspassing or use of their stand by the public without permission. This way, if a resident of Alberta uses it with out permission and is hurt/fall outs, the outfitter is not held liable.

Some people are just arrogant and ignorant. I personally have had treestands stolen, that were locked up to the tree. What do you do. NO RESPECT! This is what gives hunters a bad rep. to the farmers and general public.

True the outfitter dosen't own the tree the treestand is attached to. He does own the stand and he owns the bait and bait barrels. That is private property same as is the truck or quad he happens to park on public land to access his stand.. just because it's on public land does not give anyone who comes along permission to use his quad or truck or tent/camper simply because its parked there anymore than it would if it were parked at the grocery store. Same goes for a privately owned treestand on public land, placed in a publicly owned tree. There is a grey area where someone could put a treestand in another tree over the bait and nothing legally could be done about it but a chat with a warden will have them being told to move along and set up their own bait somewhere else. This is a common problem everywhere not just Alberta where someone comes along and sees an empty stand and climbs up in it and uses it, but they have no right being there without permission from the stand owner to use it and the owner can ask them to leave and if they don't they can be charged with interfering with a lawful hunt if caught. Problem is catching them. It's too bad that there's always somebody out there without ethics all too willing to take advantage of others hard work and planning.

quote:

Originally posted by Oscar Makonka:
It's too bad that there's always somebody out there without ethics all too willing to take advantage of others hard work and planning.

That is exactly my point. EXACTLY.

The point made by Mickey1 concerning B.C. hunting and the Guide/Outfitters is both true and is a major source of the increasing antagonism toward non-resident and alien hunters now happening in this Province.

I was in the camp of a major G/O in Sept./03, hunting Elk and PAYING for it, although I chose to hunt non-guided as is my birthright; the brochure and contract had NOT informed me that the head guide would tell me that I could not hike into the alpine via a horse trail and must hunt down along Gatho Creek. I had been given to understand that I could choose to hunt where I wished, but, since I know what I am doing in the bush, it was obvious to this guide that I would compete with his very wealthy American clients for the trophy Elk. This is not acceptable to me and it is one of many incidents, including a similar complaint from another B.C resident in that camp at the same time, that is making me consider going political to stop ALL non-resident hunting here.

The problem is one of basic human ethics and the "golden rule" applies. I would not and have not hunted in areas where a guide was hunting with American clients as I consider such behaviour unethical....but, I am not going to be forced out of my heritage due to greedy, deceptive Outfitters and arrogant, hillbilly guides with attitude problems, either.

This is a very valuable topic and I hope to see more opinions on it. Doc, come to B.C., you are the kind of hunter, regardless of nationality, that I would be proud to know.