In todays world of TV hunting shows the word professional hunter is
used pretty loosely. What exactly clarifies and qualifies any of these people as professional hunters? In africa the ph is not the hunter but the person in charge of the hunter and protection of the group. These men have been understudies of other ph's earning their status. Here North America it seems there seems to be little protocol on this subject.
jeff~

TV show dude with a sponsor. Doesn't matter if you know what you are doing as long as you book with an outfitter. Too much TV BS. Been hunting for better than 50 yrs. Have never considered myself a professional hunter. I have even guided many on waterfowl trips. Yet, I still do not consider myself a pro. BTW, I never accepted $$ for my guiding. Guess that makes me mere amateur. Good 'nuff! MTG

A PH as in Africa is to me in the true sense, a professional hunter, apprenticed, schooled, and tested. A true pro.

But the term pro hunter or pro staffer that is thrown around the hunting shows that blanket cable and satellite tv, are just that, terms of little or no relevance. They are infomercial hosts and brokers. I prefer to call them showmen.

I have always understood if you get payed for it your a professional.

Doesn't always mean your a good one.

I consider myself a PH, simply because for the past going on 14 years a good bit of my annual income is derived from hunting related activities. Whether as a guide or taking care of feeders and assorted/associated equipment at hunting camps/leases. If you are getting income from the activities then you can claim to be a professional.

Is it on the same level as the PH's in Africa, guides/PH's in Alaska where there is the possibility of facing down one of the big bears, then yes. As for some of the more normal stuff, maybe not quite so much.

I like the definition PHC gave on his audio interview with Ken Burn's when asked about being a PH, you have to be a Jack Of All Trades, an organizer, you have to know how to deal with people, I will include from my experiences, you have to genuinely like people and want to see them have a good hunt and be successful, regardless of Their Attitude. You have to be a decent shot if the need arises, you have to like hunting and be knowledgeable about the game you hunt and how to find it, you have to be flexible and willing to change your game plan if things are not working.

You have to be aware of your clients abilities, both with their equipment and physically. You have to communicate with your client and see what their expectations are and what their hunting/shooting experience level is.

You have to realize that no matter how good a job you do, how much effort you put forth, or the quality of game killed is, not all of your clients will be satisfied or give you a generous tip. I like doing it because I like to hunt and put people on game. My own hunting anymore involves getting in a stand and the first shootable doe that sticks her head up is shot and I am headed home. If I am guiding someone, even a friend or relative where no money is involved, I can stay out and hunt all day.

quote:

Originally posted by just-a-hunter:
I personally think there is a major major major difference between a Guide and/or Outfitter and a PH.

No offence to anybody but in my eyes the title 'Profesional Hunter' should stay in Africa.

Todd

Agreed.

I would concur that if you get paid to hunt then that is your profession. However I don't think adding the term professional to anything makes it worth 2 cents to me.

In the world outside Africa a hunting guide is the guy that either guides you to an animal, or is responsible for the entire outfitting process. This kind of depends on where he falls in the food chain of company ownership. You can be an Outfitter and still be a Guide. Guide was the term used in Roosevelts time, and I think it is a good one as that is what the bastard does. He guides you! In North America we should call them American Hunting Guides (or AHG) or just Hunting Guide (HG).

I am not sure where the idea of labeling White Hunters in Africa changed to professional hunters, but I had always thought that was a stupid idea. I have hunted with several PHs in Africa that were not professional, and I think that the concept of labeling anyone as a professional leads us to expect certain things.

Professional often means the opposite.

They are all hunting guides doesn't matter what continent they live on. If you live in Africa and you want to be called a Safari Guide I think that's a great term or African Hunting Guide (AHG) is also good. Back home in Alaska we call them Alaskan Hunting Guides as a whole and Registered Guide or Master Guide as they get more time on their hands and get the appropriate licesnses.

Some how in Africa guide has come to mean tour bus drive who takes you out to photograph game. And I reckon that the African Hunting Guide (also AHG) is a much better term than PH or GWH used to be.

Those idiots on TV are lucky enough and/or smart enough to figure out how to turn what they love into their profession. I don't have a lot of respect for many of them but I would give my left testicle to be part of their ranks.

To me professional is a catch phrase, and I am not keen on catch phrases. A person that sleeps with someone proffessionally is a prostitute, a person that screws people out of everything is a lawyer, a person that screws up our government professionally is politician and you get the point. Attaching the term professional detracts from the intent.

Folks call people what ever you want to, but if a person wants to refer to themselves as a Professional Hunter, that is their choice and they have every right to do so.

From the Merriam-Webster on-line dictionary:

Definition of PROFESSIONAL
1a : of, relating to, or characteristic of a profession
b : engaged in one of the learned professions
c (1) : characterized by or conforming to the technical or ethical standards of a profession
(2) : exhibiting a courteous, conscientious, and generally businesslike manner in the workplace
2a : participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs <a professional golfer>
b : having a particular profession as a permanent career <a professional soldier>
c : engaged in by persons receiving financial return <professional football>
3: following a line of conduct as though it were a profession

If a person feels like the terms use should just be limited to Africa, that is their business, more power to them.

But anyone whose income is generated by hunting can call thermselves a PH if they choose too.

Just as calling oneself a "reverend" (see sharpton, jackson et al.) doesn't canonize you or make you virtuous.....calling oneself a PH doesn't mean a damn thing unless there are professional criteria (training, apprenticeship, licensure, oversight, etc.).....remember, crack dealers derive most of their income from selling crack, so does that mean they can call themselves PCDs and expect some kind of respect for same?

As CHC said though......call yourself whatever you want.

Last week I could not spell Professional Hunter and now I are one!!!!!

What makes a profession hunter?

Training, experience, certification.

Other than that, you are a guide.

I can read a dictionary and understand that a professional is anyone accepting money for a service - so my Pakistani dry cleaner is a professional?

Anyway, I have hunted a lot of places. From my experience, the only true PH's I have been with were in Zimbabwe or were trained in Zimbabwe. In Canada or Alaska, the guides join an association but do not go through the training a PH goes through in Zim. No knock on US or Canadian guides but the guys in Zim do this full time all the time. In the US and Canada it is a sideline and not completely fulltime.

You Americans and Canadians do a fine job, so do not take this criticism.

A professional hunter to me is a hunting guide that derives the majority of his income from hunting and devotes a big part of the year to it regardless of whether it be in Africa or anywhere else. This is opposed to a guy that takes off a few weeks every year to guide a few hunts. These guys may conduct their hunts in a professional manner but to me they're not professional hunters.

Matt Woodard/ Borderland Adventures who I work with guides/outfits in AZ, NX and Mexico and is expanding his business in to two other states. This year he hunted almost continuosly from August onward and will finish up in the spring with turkeys. It would hard to not call him a professional hunter eventhough he doesn't have diploma stating that.

Mark

quote:

A professional hunter to me is a hunting guide that derives the majority of his income from hunting and devotes a big part of the year to it regardless of whether it be in Africa or anywhere else.

That right there is why I consider myself a PH. Starting in 1992/93 I started spending 100+ days a year hunting or doing stuff hunting related and was deriving income from it. That jumped in 2005, to hunting or working at something hunting related, 365 days a year. Is all of my income derived from hunting, no, I am retired and receive a pension. Does the income I receive over and above that pension come from hunting/hunting relaterd activities, Yes It Does.

To me and my way of thinking, a Pro Hunter is what the word "Pro" generally stands for.

He's the best at what he does! Regardless of locale, he's the best. If you want to hunt with a rancher/farmer/truck driver when the hunting season comes, and then they call themselves a "hunting guide", book with them. If you want to hunt with a Pro Hunter - like Drummond Lindsey, Chad Smith, and a whole bunch of other guys I know/hunt with, book/hunt with a "Professional Killer", and I assure you, you will see the difference.

I have a PH license in Africa, and I am licensed in the U.S. (passed both tests) does that make me a Professional Hunter, Nope! Pro Hunters, are Pro Killers, guys that can judge, score, and hunt, the animal you are after. I know a few of them, but most guides you hunt with are no better at it than you are!

Oh ya, I forgot RavenR too!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
That right there is why I consider myself a PH.

You'd also consider yourself an astronaut if you jumped off your porch.

Olbiker, I used that catch phrase over the years about engineers. Last week I could not spell engineer. This week I are one. MTG

Guys - To think one has to hunt in Africa to be a PRO, is simply in-correct, IMO. What do they do differently, than a PRO in the U.S./Canada/Australia, etc, does?

The answer, NOTHING! They go hunting, they find and help kill what you are after, and nothing more. Hunting buffalo in Zim, or hunting moose in B.C., is just hunting - nothing more. I know many guys think "their" African PH hung the moon, but really he's just a hunter - like everyone else. But, likely he's just alot better at it than most.

Consider this, when I (but I'm not really good at it) and others like myself guide here in N.A., we don't have trackers, we don't have skinners, we don't have drivers, etc. Its myself, and the client, no one else! I've guided dozens of whitetails over 160", dozens of muleys over 180", 24 bull elk over 350", 11 Mtn Goats, two of them with a bow - and only one of the hunts went longer than 1 day, and numerous big horn sheep hunts - which were all 100% successful. I've spotted/located the trophy, stalked it, helped ID/Kill it, and packed it out, all by myself!!! Just as hundreds of other guides/PH's across N.A. have done as well. I've pitched camp, cooked, gathered all necessary firewood/other necessities, and on one occasion I took my sheep hunter/camp all the way to the top of the mountain in about 4 hrs, unloaded, and immediately went back down/back up with additional food/water, etc - all by myself. And somehow specific guides/outfitters here in N.A., are not Pro-Hunters, really?

One of our guides - Drummond Lindsey has personally guided 25+ muleys over 200" B&C. All without the help of trackers/drivers, etc, etc, and he's not a pro-hunter, really??

Aaron- Very well stated! I totally agree

I have hunted Africa with hunters who I consider a true Pro, then I have hunted with a couple who were nothing more than a clown.

I think the same can be said for hunters all over the world, no matter where they hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by just-a-hunter:

quote:

Pro Hunter - like Drummond Lindsey, Chad Smith, and a whole bunch of other guys I know/hunt with, book/hunt with a "Professional Killer", and I assure you, you will see the difference.and ravenr

Aaron, I bet like you, you will never catch these guys calling themselves pro hunters even though thats probably what they are....

What I'm getting at is there are folks that call themselves PH's and there are folks that everybody else calls a PH.. There is a big differnce between the two, the biggest being one has an ego problem and the other just loves to hunt. Todd

I would agree with that - good points!

quote:

You'd also consider yourself an astronaut if you jumped off your porch.

No I wouldn't. Nor do I consider myself a cowboy or a jockey just because I have ridden a horse.

I don't consider myself a mechanic even though I know how to change oil in my pick up.

I can cut my own hair, but I don't call myself a barber.

I can post pictures on this site, but that don't mean I will call myself an internet wizard.

Since 2005 the extra money I make has been derived from hunting or hunting related activities. If I choose to tell people when they ask me what I do for a living that in essense I am semi-retired, but the work I still do for pay is as a professional hunter, which is just exactly where that money is coming from.

I don't see that I have broken any laws or rules of conduct, called anyone names, insulted anyone or tried to belittle anyone.

I feel that my spending 300 plus days a year for the past going on 7 years, either guideing hunters, working on camps and everything associated with those and the other various jobs related to a guide service/hunting operation, and being paid for it, it gives me the right, in my mind at least to consider myelf a professional hunter.

You and everyone ele can think what they want to.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Guys - To think one has to hunt in Africa to be a PRO, is simply in-correct, IMO. What do they do differently, than a PRO in the U.S./Canada/Australia, etc, does?

The answer, NOTHING! They go hunting, they find and help kill what you are after, and nothing more. Hunting buffalo in Zim, or hunting moose in B.C., is just hunting - nothing more. I know many guys think "their" African PH hung the moon, but really he's just a hunter - like everyone else. But, likely he's just alot better at it than most.

Consider this, when I (but I'm not really good at it) and others like myself guide here in N.A., we don't have trackers, we don't have skinners, we don't have drivers, etc. Its myself, and the client, no one else! I've guided dozens of whitetails over 160", dozens of muleys over 180", 24 bull elk over 350", 11 Mtn Goats, two of them with a bow - and only one of the hunts went longer than 1 day, and numerous big horn sheep hunts - which were all 100% successful. I've spotted/located the trophy, stalked it, helped ID/Kill it, and packed it out, all by myself!!! Just as hundreds of other guides/PH's across N.A. have done as well. I've pitched camp, cooked, gathered all necessary firewood/other necessities, and on one occasion I took my sheep hunter/camp all the way to the top of the mountain in about 4 hrs, unloaded, and immediately went back down/back up with additional food/water, etc - all by myself. And somehow specific guides/outfitters here in N.A., are not Pro-Hunters, really?

One of our guides - Drummond Lindsey has personally guided 25+ muleys over 200" B&C. All without the help of trackers/drivers, etc, etc, and he's not a pro-hunter, really??

No he's a AHG American Hunting Guide, and from the sounds of it a Legend!

25 Mules over 200, that my friends is success in the hunting world.

quote:

Originally posted by MOA TACTICAL:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Guys - To think one has to hunt in Africa to be a PRO, is simply in-correct, IMO. What do they do differently, than a PRO in the U.S./Canada/Australia, etc, does?

The answer, NOTHING! They go hunting, they find and help kill what you are after, and nothing more. Hunting buffalo in Zim, or hunting moose in B.C., is just hunting - nothing more. I know many guys think "their" African PH hung the moon, but really he's just a hunter - like everyone else. But, likely he's just alot better at it than most.

Consider this, when I (but I'm not really good at it) and others like myself guide here in N.A., we don't have trackers, we don't have skinners, we don't have drivers, etc. Its myself, and the client, no one else! I've guided dozens of whitetails over 160", dozens of muleys over 180", 24 bull elk over 350", 11 Mtn Goats, two of them with a bow - and only one of the hunts went longer than 1 day, and numerous big horn sheep hunts - which were all 100% successful. I've spotted/located the trophy, stalked it, helped ID/Kill it, and packed it out, all by myself!!! Just as hundreds of other guides/PH's across N.A. have done as well. I've pitched camp, cooked, gathered all necessary firewood/other necessities, and on one occasion I took my sheep hunter/camp all the way to the top of the mountain in about 4 hrs, unloaded, and immediately went back down/back up with additional food/water, etc - all by myself. And somehow specific guides/outfitters here in N.A., are not Pro-Hunters, really?

One of our guides - Drummond Lindsey has personally guided 25+ muleys over 200" B&C. All without the help of trackers/drivers, etc, etc, and he's not a pro-hunter, really??

No he's a AHG American Hunting Guide, and from the sounds of it a Legend!

25 Mules over 200, that my friends is success in the hunting world.

Ok, he's an AHG. Really, they are all AHG's. "American Hunting Guide - African Hunting Guide", but to me they are all Pros - JMO.

quote:

From my experience, the only true PH's I have been with were in Zimbabwe or were trained in Zimbabwe.

The others are just professional guides or outfitters.

quote:

What makes a professional hunter

Back to the OP, what is/are the defining aspect(s) that relegates one person to the status of being a Professional Hunter or just being a Professional Guide????

What is it that sets them apart, OTHER than where they are doing business???

At SCI a few years back I had I guy introduce himself as a "PH" from a high fence Texas operation. Come on!

If he is, by the definitions given by other posters above, the man derives all or most of his income from hunting/hunting related activities, even on a high fence property, which by the eay are not just limited to Texas, I believe RSA and Namibia have their share of HFR's, then in reality the peron is a PH.

The division here deals with semantics in that some believe the only people that have the "Right" to refer to themselves as PH's only work in Africa.

Guess I'll go down the the Stichin' Post in Pinedale and get myself a hat AR Pro Staff.. that should do it.. (she'll make me anything.. "never pick a fight with an old man",,,, "does this 45 make my butt look big?"....) Les

Drummond said, regardless of whether you call any of us Professional hunters, American Hunting Guides, or a bunch of morons - definitely call us one thing, LUCKY!!! Cause every day, we get to hunt for a living and I can't imagine anything I would love to do more than that.

quote:

Drummond said, regardless of whether you call any of us Professional hunters, American Hunting Guides, or a bunch of morons - definitely call us one thing, LUCKY!!! Cause every day, we get to hunt for a living and I can't imagine anything I would love to do more than that.

Plus 1, great way to look at it.

yep, what drummond said
thou i might even use the word "blessed"

+2

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by MOA TACTICAL:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Guys - To think one has to hunt in Africa to be a PRO, is simply in-correct, IMO. What do they do differently, than a PRO in the U.S./Canada/Australia, etc, does?

The answer, NOTHING! They go hunting, they find and help kill what you are after, and nothing more. Hunting buffalo in Zim, or hunting moose in B.C., is just hunting - nothing more. I know many guys think "their" African PH hung the moon, but really he's just a hunter - like everyone else. But, likely he's just alot better at it than most.

Consider this, when I (but I'm not really good at it) and others like myself guide here in N.A., we don't have trackers, we don't have skinners, we don't have drivers, etc. Its myself, and the client, no one else! I've guided dozens of whitetails over 160", dozens of muleys over 180", 24 bull elk over 350", 11 Mtn Goats, two of them with a bow - and only one of the hunts went longer than 1 day, and numerous big horn sheep hunts - which were all 100% successful. I've spotted/located the trophy, stalked it, helped ID/Kill it, and packed it out, all by myself!!! Just as hundreds of other guides/PH's across N.A. have done as well. I've pitched camp, cooked, gathered all necessary firewood/other necessities, and on one occasion I took my sheep hunter/camp all the way to the top of the mountain in about 4 hrs, unloaded, and immediately went back down/back up with additional food/water, etc - all by myself. And somehow specific guides/outfitters here in N.A., are not Pro-Hunters, really?

One of our guides - Drummond Lindsey has personally guided 25+ muleys over 200" B&C. All without the help of trackers/drivers, etc, etc, and he's not a pro-hunter, really??

No he's a AHG American Hunting Guide, and from the sounds of it a Legend!

25 Mules over 200, that my friends is success in the hunting world.

Ok, he's an AHG. Really, they are all AHG's. "American Hunting Guide - African Hunting Guide", but to me they are all Pros - JMO.

Aaron that was the point, but I guess I didn't make it clear enough. If everyone is an AHG then everyone is an AHG.

Works in Asia too!

Though not so much in Europe.