As a West Tennessee deer hunter, I'm finally learning something. If you want a chance at a good buck, better forget the 30-06 and buy a muzzleloader. They get second crack at them (second only to the archery guys) and apparently everyone has now figured that out in this super high hunting pressure area.

Our regular gun season starts this Sat, but in driving out there the last few days while muzzleloading is going on, I keep seeing big ones in backs of pickups and hanging at the deer butchers. And I've seen lots of guys with muzzleoaders and archery too riding around on 4 wheelers in our section of the county.

During regular gun season I'm also not seeing any of those larger bucks I sometimes come across when I'm out there working on deer stands and such before muzzleloading begins.

Is this what's going on everywhere? Is this how it works now?

Do we need to join the crowds and get one of those things? I mean, I've always liked modern guns a lot better, but am not opposed if it's the only way.

I put this here instead of under muzzleloading because I knew it'd be seen by more and wanted to know if this is the deal elsewhere and if it's a game changer in other parts of the country.

Does TN allow smokeless muzzleloaders?

I do both simply because it extends my hunting opportunities. Kansas is the only state I hunt that has the ML season before rifle. In Neb and Mo. the ML season is after rifle season. The ML saeaon in KS is far enough ahead of rifle that they have a chance to settle back down. ML is in Sept and rifle is in Dec. Here, the archery guys are the only ones that get to hunt the rut.

quote:

Does TN allow smokeless muzzleloaders?

I'm sure it does.

It's been 20 years since I owned a M/L and it was the kind they no longer use. You just don't see them any more. T/C Hawken 50 cal, with maxi-balls or round balls rather than sabots containing modern handgun JHP bullets. And back then you used real black powder or Pyrodex instead of those pellets they've got today. And we used old fashioned and prone to misfire percussion caps instead of inline shotgun primers. And nobody but nobody had scopes on them.

What they have today of course is a scoped single shot job whose main difference from a modern gun is loading from the muzzle. There's not a lot of other practical differences. And across the state line in Mississippi, they can even use breach loaders, like replica 1800s 45-70s and such. And all before regular gun hunters get their chance.

This is a big time game changer for us modern rifle hunters.

Personally I'm not too crazy about it.

In New Mexico you have to specify which weapon you will use. Have used both in the past, but modern rifles at the present time. It's almost impossible to draw a permit these days it's almost a moot point.

Missouri's MLer season is over a month later than the normal rifle season so to me it's a bonus hunt but with 250,000 less deer in the woods

And MO's "muzzleloading" season is now an "alternative" season including centerfire cartridge handguns among other things. They just want people to kill deer and they don't really care how they do it.

Yep
And they don't give a rats azz who does it with tags way to easy for non residents

I wish non residents had to draw in the Show Me State

I got a "primitive weapon" (.45-70 Handi-Rifle) for the same reason, here in Mississippi. I got tired of watching people taking deer and pressuring them while I was waiting for regular rifle to start. Now I hunt deer almost exclusively with the Handi-Rifle, because the season switches back and forth a couple of times and it's a kind of a pain to keep track. I don't want to make a mistake and get caught hunting with a regular rifle at the wrong time and lose it to the game warden. Although I understand it all may go away net year and it will be any rifle any time.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Scott:
And MO's "muzzleloading" season is now an "alternative" season including centerfire cartridge handguns among other things. They just want people to kill deer and they don't really care how they do it.

When one has a huge deer population reducing regulation is a good thing.

I might have to look into MO primitive season as I have relatives there now with property.

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
Yep
And they don't give a rats azz who does it with tags way to easy for non residents

I wish non residents had to draw in the Show Me State

Why are you running out of deer or do you just want them for your self.

I hunt private land so I'm not worried about everyone else

I do however see a lot of out of state license plates from States that wont allow me to buy over the counter

Hello Iowa....Kansas....Illinois

We did this for elk in Colo because where we hunted was over run with ATV's during the rifle season and it was easier for us out of staters to draw the tags for the ML hunt.
Then everybody else figured it out too and you couldn't consistently draw ML tags either.

Shack, contact Idaho Ron who posts here. He still uses the traditional muzzleloaders with great success. He may have some pointers.

Thx for the suggestion. It would probably be more the modern M/L that I'd need pointers on rather than the traditional. The "old ones" I pretty much had down. I even went as far as having a rifle, musket and handgun all in black powder and I got an RCBS melting pot and Lyman molds and made my own projectiles of many types and weights. Back then soft plumbers' lead was easy to come by and I got it by the 5 lb ingots. I used a 4 lb hammer to beat them into shape so they'd fit into the furnace. And it took practice to mold the bullets so they had no cracks or fissures in them.

But few others were interested in it locally and I eventually sold off all that stuff. And when I hunted with it, the percussion caps about half the time didn't ignite. That was funny because on the range they usually worked (the larger musket caps always worked - the problem there was the civil war replica gun itself wasn't all that accurate).

And it's all definitely not something I'd want to go back to.

Anyway, I just like modern guns so much better and I'm a handgunner also, all of which puts you at a distinct disadvantage when they let the "modern muzzleloaders" go first.

Funny, isn't it, the phrase "modern muzzleloaders". That alone should be the tip off to those in charge that something's seriously out of whack and needs changing.

There is a whole lot of misinformation out there about what a lot of folks call "modern" muzzleloaders.

It is a matter of fact that the in-line muzzleloader was developed in the mid-1800s as the Pauley design. I don't see that as modern at all. True enough, guns back then didn't have scopes, but a lot of the western states don't allow magnification anyway. If your state does, I apologize, but somebody passed the law to allow it, and probably with input from the hunting community.

As I see it, muzzleloaders still are at a pretty good disadvantage, even with scopes. The trajectory of a typical muzzleloader is not much different from throwing a brick. The holdover even at 200 yards is usually several feet unless using sabots (which I am firmly against, as I am using smokeless in a muzzleloader). Try hunting pronghorns with a muzzy and either open sights or a peep. It will send you back to the range scratching your head! It takes real practice to consistently hit 10" vitals with open sights at 200 yards.

As for me, if my health ever returns I probably will pretty much dish my centerfires during deer season. My Whites are plenty accurate at normal 100-yard ranges where most deer are shot, and they are just plain fun!

Just my $.02, guys...

For local conditions modern muzzleloaders are on the same footing with modern regular gun, excepting rate of fire and energy. And the energy differential is not enough to be "outcome determinative" regarding your typical whitetail.

Anyway, in the Mid-South nearly all big game is whitetails and the vast majority of shots are close range. 15 yds is not at all uncommon. 25 yds is extremely common. 100 yds is done but is not the usual shot. And 200 yds is really unusual. Our terrain allows much closer shots than that.

The distant history of in-line I'm not familiar with. I am familiar with its recent history locally in the field. It was unknown as a practical matter here until the last two, maybe three, decades. Before that practically everyone used percussion caps and the ones who didn't used musket caps or had their guns rigged for shotgun primers. I kinda remember when that started being talked about. It was about the time I got out of it.

Whether they were using shotgun primers or percussion along with in-line ignition in the 1800s I don't know.

Anyway, it's a package of things that define the modern muzzleloader and the ignition is just one.

One thing for sure. My state is unlikely to change the scenario of archery first, then muzzleloader, then regular gun. I tried but couldn't even make any headway on getting them to broaden muzzleloading to a "HAM" season for handgun, archery and muzzleloading. Their wildlife biologist wasn't opposed and one board member was sympathetic, but that was as far as that got. It was clear nothing happens absent a BIG number of hunters wanting it.

I would beg to differ on the matter of energy differential, although you are correct in that it probably isn't enough to make a difference at the distances you are talking about. But trajectory differs by light years...

I don't know of a single state that will not allow the use of muzzleloaders during regular rifle season. You might want to go back to the smokepole and make it your firearm of choice during the general season if your shots are really that close. It would stop you burning the hair off them from the muzzle blast of a centerfire!

The rifles I own use #11 caps by design... FWIW, I am against the use of pellets and 209 primers as well. To me, eliminating scopes, requiring the use of #11s or musket caps only, requiring the use of black or black substitute only (no smokeless), and the requirement for full caliber projectiles only (no sabots/handgun bullets) makes the only difference between what you would term a "modern" ML and a flinter the ignition type and stock design. It almost makes the point moot.

I hope things work out for you, and you figure out how to stay in the woods longer. That is what it is all about anyway.

Yes, I appreciate that. I guess when you come down to it, it's not so much staying in the woods "longer", than staying in the woods "earlier" that I need to work on.

At any rate I'll be out there this Saturday, but with a Model 70 or a Mark V or an S&W Model 29 or my beloved 44 Auto Mag and hopefully there'll be something left besides does, buttons and forkhorns...

I hunt with mzldr for reason like larry, extend the season and in VA the chase phase is always during our early mzldr. By the time rifle rolls around most of the excitement is dying off.
Find a savage 10 ml, burns regular smokeless gun powder, no BS cleaning like with pyrodex or black powder. They shoot great. I have killed close to 50 with mine the last 4 years or so.

Well this worked out better than I expected.

The modern muzzleloading crew didn't show up for their early season where I hunt.

And I went this past opening weekend and guess what happened.

Yesterday late afternoon I got what some of the locals say is the nicest and biggest 8 pt they remember seeing. I'm told you have to mount those kind. It was a real symmetrical large rack for an 8 and on the hoof was 180ish. And it was one clean neck hit with the Mark V '06. I didn't have a support to shoot from, and the first shot missed. Just under him. The second I cranked off just in time. About a half second more and a big cedar would have been in the way and the shot could have been too far aft. I put the credit for that down solely to the Weatherby short throw bolt that shaves a moment off the time needed. The guy I was hunting with over on the other side of the farm thought I must have used my S&W because the two shots were so close together.

Anyway, funny thing was, I think that deer was about to get into it with another buck over a small doe. But the other buck would probably have lost. It had a nice antler too, but only one. It was missing its right side antler.

So the jury's still out on me getting a muzzleloader for next season.

But I'll be out there again next weekend looking for that highly elusive 12. I'm sure he's still there.

..oh, it was my birthday buck...68 today.

I love my muzzleloaders. I'm getting my collection down to where I have flint or caplock only. Just personal preference, have nothing against the other types...just have more fun carrying them in the field.

If you want to get an earlier crack at a good buck, try out the archery season. It is a lot of fun as well

Doubless stated

quote:

As I see it, muzzleloaders still are at a pretty good disadvantage, even with scopes. The trajectory of a typical muzzleloader is not much different from throwing a brick. The holdover even at 200 yards is usually several feet unless using sabots (which I am firmly against, as I am using smokeless

"


***Don't know where you got that information, but they are far from "throwing a brick" and your holdover comment is ridiculous! With the fps that modern MLs are putting out nowadays, you are not even in the ballpark with those statements!

Topgun, are you talking about shooting black or black substitute (NOT Blackhorn 209) and full caliber heavy conicals, or are you one of those that shoots a Savage with smokeless and a saboted bullet, trying to turn your so-called muzzleloader into a 300 WM?

You will note that I said "typical"... the Savage is in a different class, along with NULA and Cross Canyon arms: they are designed to shoot smokeless, and as far as I am concerned, are not "typical" muzzleloaders.

I stand by my statement, and have the trajectory tables to back it up, so long as we are comparing apples to apples.

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:
Topgun, are you talking about shooting black or black substitute (NOT Blackhorn 209) and full caliber heavy conicals, or are you one of those that shoots a Savage with smokeless and a saboted bullet, trying to turn your so-called muzzleloader into a 300 WM?

You will note that I said "typical"... the Savage is in a different class, along with NULA and Cross Canyon arms: they are designed to shoot smokeless, and as far as I am concerned, are not "typical" muzzleloaders.

I stand by my statement, and have the trajectory tables to back it up, so long as we are comparing apples to apples.

No need for your sarcasm about smokeless and the 300WM crack! Maybe what you refer to as "typical" is the real old time stuff because it's not true of the modern inline MLs and we're not talking of the smokeless ones you mentioned! A ML loaded with 2 or 3 pellets of a BP substitute is sure not going to have a trajectory like a brick and the ft/lbs of energy at 200 yards is still way up there and more than enough to easily take a deer or elk at that distance. With a decent zero, they have the ability to shoot out well over 200 yards with minimal drop and plenty of energy for big game. I use an older 50 caliber rifle with 90 grains of 777 shooting a 245 grain Powerbelt Aerotip using what is called an "Accra Shot" that replaces the nipple. It's a threaded 2-piece system where the base holds a small caliber primer and the top is then screwed on and has a firing pin that the hammer strikes to set the primer off to ignite the 777. Even my load shoots with a lot better trajectory than what your'e stating and it isn't even an inline system like what you're talking about.

quote:

I use an older 50 caliber rifle with 90 grains of 777 shooting a 245 grain Powerbelt Aerotip using what is called an "Accra Shot" that replaces the nipple. It's a threaded 2-piece system where the base holds a small caliber primer and the top is then screwed on and has a firing pin that the hammer strikes to set the primer off to ignite the 777. Even my load shoots with a lot better trajectory than what your'e stating and it isn't even an inline system like what you're talking about.

I will respectfully suggest that we agree to disagree. Will you at least admit that shooting a 245-grain bullet from a 50-caliber rifle is trying to turn it into a rifle that will compete with smokeless centerfires? After all, that is what the light bullets do: trajectory changes significantly, and yes, in that case you are correct. (And those bullets often blow up on the surface, failing to penetrate. Powerbelts are one of the worst. I have several friends that have lost whitetails due to catastrophic failure of a Powerbelt...)

But like I said, if we are talking apples to apples, a heavy conical as originally designed for muzzleloaders has a very short point blank hold, comparatively speaking.

And I know, because I shoot them using heavy conicals. That is the reason that the western states have outlawed saboted bullets, pellets, and scopes. These "improvements" changed the design and original intent of a muzzleloader, tilting the playing field away from the flinters and percussion guys.

Try getting that contraption you shoot approved in any of the western states. I wish you luck...

Doubless: "I will respectfully suggest that we agree to disagree. Will you at least admit that shooting a 245-grain bullet from a 50-caliber rifle is trying to turn it into a rifle that will compete with smokeless centerfires? After all, that is what the light bullets do: trajectory changes significantly, and yes, in that case you are correct. (And those bullets often blow up on the surface, failing to penetrate. Powerbelts are one of the worst. I have several friends that have lost whitetails due to catastrophic failure of a Powerbelt...)

But like I said, if we are talking apples to apples, a heavy conical as originally designed for muzzleloaders has a very short point blank hold, comparatively speaking.

And I know, because I shoot them using heavy conicals. That is the reason that the western states have outlawed saboted bullets, pellets, and scopes. These "improvements" changed the design and original intent of a muzzleloader, tilting the playing field away from the flinters and percussion guys.

Try getting that contraption you shoot approved in any of the western states. I wish you luck"

***Disagree all you want, but the one thing we do agree on is that the inline MLs being made today, especially the ones using smokeless powder, were damn sure designed to compete with centerfire rifles and they have definitely changed the original intent of a ML. Incidentally, you need to bone up on the laws in all the western states before you make all of your other statements about what is allowed and not, as I used that "contraption" on a hunt in NM a few years ago for mulies, LOL!!! It depends on whether you're talking a regular ML season or one restricted to the older percussion and flintlocks.

At the end of the day the way it works out for me is that I delivered to the taxidermist a real nice buck to be mounted, that in my opinion would have been a goner if the ML season guys had been here.

So I'm not complaining.

That doesn't mean anything though in regards to the fact that in my state the development of the modern ML is a game changer of significant proportions.

Anyway, I'm only a mile from the Mississippi state line and if I was hunting there I'd definitely get a 45-70 breechloader which they are allowed to use during the early primitive season. I'd like it even better if Tennessee went that way. And I'd like it still better if they'd do a ml, archery and handgun early season. Handgun is what I like best anyway. Just a pistolero at heart.

But you work with what they give you.

And, I'm going to try and stay out of any debates about energy as between modern ML and modern rifle. Anything involving "energy" in firearms can be a real can of worms...

In most sports when an innovation is found to be a "game changer" the competitors who want the best results use the innovation. Those who don't use it often complain that it is an unfair advantage. The thing is it is an advantage that is available to all.

If you want to win use the best equipment available to at least even the odds.

I use a modern front loader. I hunt with it to extend my season and not for anything else.

Knight Disc Elite in 45 cal with a 26" tube topped off with a 3x9x40 Leupold VariX II

I run a .400 200 grain Hornady SST over 120 grns of lose H777 with a 209

The BC on the bullet is 265

M/V over my chronograph is a 3 shot average of 2475

Trajectory is far from throwing a brick with energy over 1K at just beyond 300 yards and the rifle is very accurate

Muzzle.............. -1.5 energy....2720
50................... 1.6 energy....2380
100.................. 3.0 energy....2074
150.................. 2.6 energy....1800
200.................. 0 energy....1556
250................. -5.1 energy....1340
300................. -13 energy....1151

Game Changer? I don't care. In 3 weeks my wife will be notching tags here in the show-me state using it.

quote:

I use a modern front loader. I hunt with it to extend my season and not for anything else.Knight Disc Elite in 45 cal with a 26" tube topped off with a 3x9x40 Leupold VariX III run a .400 200 grain Hornady SST over 120 grns of lose H777 with a 209The BC on the bullet is 265M/V over my chronograph is a 3 shot average of 2475Trajectory is far from throwing a brick with energy over 1K at just beyond 300 yards and the rifle is very accurate Muzzle.............. -1.5 energy....272050................... 1.6 energy....2380100.................. 3.0 energy....2074150.................. 2.6 energy....1800200.................. 0 energy....1556250................. -5.1 energy....1340300................. -13 energy....1151

And at the risk of flogging a dead horse, take a look at how many of the western "big game" stated will allow you to hunt with that combination, Ted. Not many. New Mexico is an outlier, as best I can tell. That is all I have said from the beginning: that the use of sabots, nitroglycerin-based "black powder substitutes", etc., take away the original intent of muzzleloading and give an advantage to the new wunder rifle shooters. In an attempt to give the traditional guys an even field, the majority of the western compact have made the use of pellets, 209 primers, sabots, etc. off limits.

I understand the reasons guys use them, and really don't find any fault with them until they call them a muzzleloader. To me, that is like saying a UTV is an automobile because it has four wheels.

But I have made my point and said enough...

If I wanted to use an antique weapon I would. However I live in a state that allows me to use a broad choice of firearms during the alternative season.

I cary a modern center fire when I hunt "out west" and have no desire to use a M/L or archery tackle in those states.

I lose no sleep over any of it.

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
If I wanted to use an antique weapon I would. However I live in a state that allows me to use a broad choice of firearms during the alternative season.

I cary a modern center fire when I hunt "out west" and have no desire to use a M/L or archery tackle in those states.

I lose no sleep over any of it.

Damn it! Quit using reason and logic!!!

A lot of it's the attachment for a particular type of weapon. With me I've spent decades collecting the guns at considerable expense I enjoy owning and hunting with and don't want to go back to square one on it with something quite different.

And my fondness of handgun hunting is such that if I could get in range to use only those I probably would. I continue to hope they'll someday work out an H/A/M season.

Anyway, with all the different rules in various states and the matter so much at the whim of the wildlife officials I believe I'll hold off on getting into modern MLs. If they go and do something different here, I want to keep the options open...and not go to a lot of effort only to have it wiped out by some new rule change.

..across the state line in Mississippi you can buy a used in-line real cheap, now that they've changed it to allow breechloaders during the early season...