Doc: Thanks for the tip on the H1000. That is another powder I have never tried. I need to get out more and try more new things I guess. The 140's though will definitely be on my "to try" list this spring in my relatively new 270.
Thanks again for the tip. I have it noted in my loading log.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Post deleted by VarmintGuy

Jorge: Your major mistakes (and bordering on unethical Hunting practice!) in shooting ANY head of medium size Big Game in the shoulder is it does NOT kill as quickly as a proper heart/lung shot - this is undisputable - AND the typical shoulder shot ruins so much meat, often times, from both shoulders! Then your additional oversights are also important things like the proper heart/lung shot drains blood (which improves the taste of all the flesh of the animal!) from all over and into the chest cavity!
I would gladly trade any (or all) of these attributes of proper shot placement for "anchoring" a medium size Big Game animal. Why in the world would any knowledgeable Hunter destroy much edible meat with a shoulder shot and make for a slower death of a fine Game animal? Along with intentionally making sure much of the blood in the game animal is not allowed to drain into such a convenient container as the chest cavity AND in doing so diminishing the quality of the remaining Game meat!
Jorge - why do you think they bleed (hang them upside down and slit their throats) beef cattle when being slaughtered for market?
The correct answer is to improve the quality of the meat (better flavor and much less messy when transporting and preparing!).
I certainly wish any Hunter of medium size Big Game would make every effort to place his bullet into the heart/lung area and avoid the shoulders at all costs!
Lest there be ANY confusion I will restate here clearly and without ambiguity, and standby, my claims backed by my extensive experience and plentiful observations in this regard:
#1: Intentionally shooting ANY head of medium size Big game in the shoulders is bordering on unethical!
#2: Shooting any head of medium size Big Game in the heart/lung area will kill it quicker and more humanely than a shoulder shot!
#3: Shooting any head of medium size Big Game in the heart/lung area will significantly improve the taste of harvested game ESPECIALLY over shoulder shot game!
#4: Shooting any head of medium size Big Game properly in the heart/lung area will save much edible meat that a shoulder shot would completely ruin!
#5: Shooting medium size Big Game in the heart/lung area virtually eliminates those "unexplainable" "run offs" that seem to occur from time to time with shoulder shots! Especially angling shoulder shots!
I completely and unfalteringly disagree with your statement (misstatement!) that erroneously infers that it is possible to destroy the heart/lungs with the same shot that ruins the shoulders! This is simply impossible to do and I have never seen it done on any of the hundreds of head of harvested medium size Big Game I have been in on!
Any argument regarding shot placement that includes the RUINING of a significant portion of the meat of a fine head of medium size Big game is simply without any further plausible consideration! It is so simple just to correctly shoot said animals in the heart/lung area and kill the animal quicker and save much more meat! No argument you have made carries any weight with me in this regard, what so ever Jorge!
And I am sorry to disagree with you so vehemently! You simply are going out of your way to make a mistake and render much useful meat unuseable!
A double error here!
And again one I think is bordering on unethical Hunting!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I've pretty much filled a trophy room with shoulder-shot big game animals, a fact which pretty-much blows your self-righteous bullshit right out of the water. There is absolutely nothing at all unethical about taking shoulder shots at big game animals; quite the opposite in fact. The only way a shoulder shot could be considered "unethical" is if you choose to take it with a 'tin-foil'-type hunting bullet from a too-light caliber. The Nosler Ballistic Tip surely qualifies as 'tin-foil' bullet and it's a toss up as to which is the very worst bullet I've used for big game -- the Ballistic Tip or that paper-puncher's delight, the Sierra Match King.

The Nosler Partition is a far, far more reliable hunting bullet than the Nosler BT could ever be, and a tiny cluster of holes on a piece of paper off the bench would nver persuade me to select the BT over the Partition. I have never seen the day where a Nosler Partition was not accurate enough for any big game hunting anywhere in the world, nor have I seen the day where any accuracy advantage that the BT might hold in a given rifle would make any real-world game-taking difference in the field.

I think a lot of guys have theoretical paper and/or varmint accuracy confused with big game accuracy. Bullet construction counts for more than bench accuracy any day of the week.....

AD

I've used NBT's over the years. I started with the light jacketed .270's eons ago and have regained confidence in the newer style over the past decade or so. So much so that I and several others I hunt with use them religiously (and I'm agnostic).

Here is the result of using 200 gr. .338 NBTs from two weeks ago.




and he didn't run off with a heart lung shot at about 200 yds.

I'm with Jorge and Allen on this one. Sometimes for differing reasons it's necessary to make a shoulder shot, you may need to knock down an animal right there and need to take away it's ability to run etc.. Quite a few guides, professional hunters and extremely experienced hunters recommend shoulder shots suggesting that it's better to loose a little meat than the whole animal. Suggesting that it borders on the unethical is ridiculous. If you aim for the shoulder it is necessary to use a bullet that's up to the task of breaking both shoulders reliably and that usually rules out ballistic tips, thankfully Nosler also makes Partitions and Accubonds.
If you are always able to hit in the Heart/lung area behind the shoulder Ballistic tip grenades will kill very quickly. But IMHO they don't leave as much room for error as a Partition. A Partition in the Heart/Lung area will absolutely kill whereas Ballistic tips have been known to not penetrate enough to kill on some shoulder shots. I think I'd rather have a bullet that I trust to do either.........DJ

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. Virtually every animal I've seen shot in the heart/lung area, invariably runs, sometimes up to a few hundred yards. They are "dead on their feet" to be sure, but they do run nevertheless. Conversely, animals shot in the shoulder drop more readily and expire quicker. I'm not going to get into a "penis-envy" I've-shot-more-animals-than you discussion, but suffice to say that although my evidence is purely empirical, Shoulder shots kill just as fast AND anchor the animal. I've experienced this from deer to bear, hogs and african game. Moreover, virtually every Big Game hunter as well as Professional Hunters I've spoken with emphasizes the shoulder shot. If you look at the anatomical descriptions and pictures in books such as the "Perfect Shot", you'll see that the heart lung area CAN be reached through the shoulder. Matter of fact, I'll be willing to wager that if you were to run a poll here among the serious hunters, most go with the shoulder shot.

Frankly, I don't see where ethics has anything to do with ruining meat. Sorry, but to me the meat is purely secondary. I don;t let it go to waste to be sure, I give it away to either friends, Sportsmen against hunger or in Africa, it goes to the locals. If you prefer the hear/lung shot because you like to eat more meat fine, but don't tell those of us with at least a modicum of experience that we are wrong and unethical. jorge

See? we can have different points of view without the bullshit. Those BTs DO work...if you pick your shot like some of you said, but why narrow your options when a stouter bullet like a Partition will give you a bettter chance and a larger margin? Hell, I can make the argument that it is you that are being "unethical" because you are making it tougher on yourself with a less efficient bullet and narrower kill zone. If you're happy with your methods, FINE, but don't tell me and others with similar or significantly more experience than you that we are being unethical. jorge

Jorge: You are most certainly allowed to "envy penis's" if you have to, but, I will tell you straight out that you are wasting meat and NOTHING you have stated has swayed my observations and EXTENSIVE experience in this regard. Not even a little bit.
The VarmintWife and I just last night finished home butchering a wonderful Mule Deer Buck that I properly and ethically harvested using ONE heart/lung shot from my 270! I literally felt sorry for you and anyone like you that would needlessly shoot such a wonderful animal through the shoulders as I boned out the meat (yes from both shoulders and this was a sizeable amount of meat by the way!) and wrapped it for OUR future consumption. With your poor choice of shots on game I know that you are missing out on what I think is one of the most important aspects of Hunting - relishing and savoring all the meat one can possibly utilize from ones quarry.
You sir are missing out - whether you realize it or not!
You should set aside your daydreaming of others genitalia and listen to someone that is trying to give you a learned hand! Try the heart/lung shot next season if you have time away from your perusing of peni! You will be pleasantly surprised and well rewarded! So what if you quarry darts away some modest distance - just remember it is pumping its life blood out of its flesh and into the chest cavity causing a very quick kill and improving the taste of the meat, ALL OF THE MEAT, on its bones!
Those shoulder shots (and let me remind you I have seen these errors in judgement and "mistakes" occur on way to many occassions!) is again: wasteful, a slow killer (as compared to a heart/lung shot head of medium size Big game), ruins lots of very edible meat, and fails to bleed out the flesh of the harvested animal thus causing consternation and problems down the line that could have been easily avoided!
Your repeated reference to anchoring medium size Big Game "in its tracks" is a spurious and specious argument. It is without merit! Please do not refer to it again.
I have shot A LOT of medium size Big Game! A lot more than even most self described experts or advanced Hunters! I have no interest what so ever in giving up my preferred heart/lung shots on the game in question. I am so convinced and so pleased with the decade after decade results I get with the heart/lung shot and so disappointed with the results I see when others use the shoulder shot (that ruins meat and causes a slow death for the quarry)!
Nope - none of what you say makes any sense to me what so ever and is in fact directly contradictory to what I know to be fact.
Avoid my points if you wish and keep envying penis's ad nauseum, if you must, but you are bordering on unethical sporting behavior in your misguided and apparently continued insistence on ruining edible meat and causing a slower than need be death of our fine game animals!
Poor choices all!
Why don't you just throw all of the meat away from the medium size Big Game you harvest with shoulder shots? We all agree that is clearly unethical! So why is it not bordering on unethical when you waste a lesser amount of that game when you intentionally/erroneously strike that game in the wrong spot? Causing it a slower death! Causing much bloodshot in surrounding flesh and failing to bleed out the creature as completely as possible! Yes coming up with ANY plausible and meritorious reason to use a shoulder shot on our splendid medium size Big game animals is gonna be a tough task Jorge! I don't think it can be done! At least you have not been able to do it.
You may want to stick to envying penis's if thats your bag and avoid espousing specious arguments with those that know better!
And I just could not let this "exageration", by you, get by without CORRECTING it. I have shot in my estimation far in excess of 200 head of medium size Big Game and the vast majority of those were shot through the heart/lungs. Not one of them went 200 yards! I can only recall a couple that went past 100 yards! Most were done in, in less than 80 yards! So no I will not let you "exagerate" to try and bolster your fallacious point! Please do not try that again or I will "correct" you again. I will not use the term BULLSHIT regarding your 200 yard CLAIM, at this juncture in our discussion but the thought did cross my mind!
And for the record Jorge I will state that you are wrong in using shoulder shots on medium size Big Game and IT IS bordering on unethical to intentionally waste the meat of Big Game like you are doing! And it is especially offensive when this bordering on unethical tactic can so easily be avoided and replaced with a more efficient policy!
Me begins to think your mindset and decision making process's may be clouded and interupted to often with images of peni!
Come back on down to more gentlemanly behavior and review your misguided daydreaming and Hunting ethics! Yes Jorge your reference to your penile propensities gives me cause for worry. But that is a minor concern compared to your conduct that is bordering on unethical in INTENTIONALLY wasting Big Game meat! Shame on you!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I almost hate to wade into this mess but here is my.02 cents worth,I am a partiion guy in my .28o 145 for deer and elk in the heart-lungs dead every time most one shot kills,used to guide and saw a lot of bulls shoulder shot w/338,s cover some ground before going down or even require second shot,but since I never take that shot and I dont think its a bad shot with a heavy bullit but not my choice.w/regards

Frank Nowakowski: Strange things can happen when medium size Big Game is shot "in the shoulder" with about any bullet!

First off and I hope you or your nephew do not take this as criticism but as helpful advice gained from shooting of Big Game, by me, and observing many hundreds of others doing so - for 45 years now - no head of medium size Big Game should ever be shot on purpose - in the shoulder! A shot that will much quicker and more humanely kill and one that will not spoil ANY usable flesh of the intended quarry is the heart/lung shot! Animals shot through the heart/lung area will die and bleed out better than shoulder shot animals and save large amounts of very edible flesh for the Hunter.

I have used this shot now - exclusively - for 40+ years. Never have I been disappointed when the intended quarry was struck correctly with this shot. I simply cringe and hope for the best when I see or hear of a Hunter using the shoulder shot on medium size Big Game.

Having said that I have never used the 150 gr. 30 caliber Ballistic Tips ever, so I can not comment on their use personally with even a proper heart/lung hit. I tend to think though that if correctly placed that bullet would quickly bring to bag ones intended quarry.

I did shoot a trotting (not running - just quick stepping) Buck Antelope with a 70 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip (handloads from my custom 240 Weatherby) some years ago and the animal was, struck in the shoulder instead of the intended heart/lung area. The animal was knocked off its feet and never regained a stance. I did shoot it again several seconds later through the heart/lungs and it immediately perished. I recall some lung damage that I perceived as having come from the first shot as the killing shot came into the chest cavity from the "bottom" as the Antelope was on its side at that shot.

We all know that ones aim under field conditions may stray a bullet into a shoulder even when trying for a heart/lung shot and if you feel confident those 150 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips won't get through the shoulder blade reliably then I would suggest one go to another bullet. But if your nephew or anyone for that matter is aiming at the games shoulder then I suggest, strongly, that this procedure be reconsidered and abandoned.

I have seen over the decades many types of bullets fail to kill medium size Big Game when a shoulder hit was made! Various amounts of tracking and follow up shots were needed in these instances! Sadly! Some bullets simply angled off and others disintegrated before mortal wounds were inflicted to the quarrys vitals!

I always try and wait for a clear heart/lung shot (even on moving Whitetails) before I finish the squeeze!

I also recommend the Nosler Partitions for Elk and the larger Big Game animals.

Wishing you and your nephew the best in this and upcoming seasons.

Hold into the wind

VarmintGuy