Wonderful news from Wyomings Fremont County. The County Board of Commisioners has passed a law declaring the Wolf a "PREDATOR" and may be shot by anyone, anytime! Wow! The Elk may be saved in that area - hallelujah! Sanity prevails in some places. The article announcing this news was in the Billings Gazette on 1-26-2003! I will attempt to link to it for anyone interested in reading the full article. In addition a state legislator has introduced a bill in the state legislature trying to accomplish the same thing statewide! A spokesman for the U.S.F.W.S. admitted that EACH WOLF PACK is now killing 20 Elk a MONTH! "240 a year"!
The U.S.F.W.S. Wolf co-ordinator also states the Wolves are increasing at 11% a year inside Yellowstone Park and 20% a year outside the Park!
Numbers like that will destroy western Big Game Hunting in a very few years in my opinion!
Way to go Wyoming! I will attempt to place the article link below.
http://www.billingsgazette.com/index.php?id=1&display=rednews/2003/01/26/build/wyoming/predators.inc
I hope you interested readers can cut copy and paste the address I listed above for the article! It is a frightening and hopeful report at the same time.
Of course Federal Law takes precedence over local laws but this is a good step in the right direction. If local prosecuters refuse to prosecute local folks I am sure that after a while anyone caught keeping the Wolf numbers in check will not be prosecuted Federally in Wyoming.
Lots of bumberstickers in Montana that say "Kill a Wolf - Save 100 Elk"! Maybe it should read save 240 Elk!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

THATS GREAT NEWS!!!

I am sorry, but unless you live or constanly hunt in Montana, this really means nothing to
me. I would just consider the wolf another predator just like man. Don't ge me wrong,
I am not a tree hugger! But what the hell. Hunt the wolf like any other prey!!! I consider
a healthy predator population as a good judgement of the prey level, just as one would
in Africa. Are wolves killing to many elk or are you just pissed about something competing
with you for elk? Believe me no good predetors (coyotes, etc. should be shot on sight!)
But reading your post, one would think that all predators should be eradicated. I don't hunt
your state, but a healthy predator population usually means a healthy prey pop. Just my
view on this.

The wolves have completely eliminated the elk , and most of the deer, on the noth fork of the Flathead River in N.W.Montana. The south fork populations are way down. Yes, it's time to take care of the problem.

DBKING -

The wolf was re-introduced against the outspoken opposition of the local residents in Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming. Many meetings were held and the feds were told the same thing, WE DON"T WANT THEM! But the feds listened to the metropolitan majority who wanted to drive through Yellowstone (at 65-75 mph, that's right, just try to see the sights at that speed)) and hear the wolf howl. They couldn't have cared less what we wanted as they don't have to live here or try to make a living out here.

Here are some of the reasons they are a problem:

The wolf is at the top of the food chain and has no predators.

The wolf is protected and their numbers are skyrocketing.

We, the people of these states, have been given no way to control their numbers.

These wolves are munching elk, bighorn sheep, moose, cattle, domestic sheep, ranch dogs, horses, and llamas like popcorn.

And as I have stated in other posts, these wolves are killing a hell of a lot more than what they are eating. This has been documented by our TV stations and newspapers with film footage and pictures of injured or dead elk killed by the wolves.

True, for someone such as yourself, who lives as far away as you do this isn't a problem. To us, it is something the feds shoved down our throats and told us to like. This is something we in sagebrush country don't take too well. Perhaps people in more metroploitian areas are conditioned to having things imposed upon them but we aren't! We still believe that WE ARE THE PEOPLE!

DBking
Well one thing to consider, they have not counted one Calf Moose in the park this year! According to a friend of mine who stays in touch with most of the Guide and outfitters up that way. Why do you think the Canadian Government was so willing to cooperate with the relocation of some of their wolves? Many Canadian's told the US wildlife officials they didn't know what they were letting themselves in for. If it could be done and all the "Now US wolves" could be caught, and to be sent back to Canada, they would not be allowed across the boarder! US officials would be told "It's your problem now, you deal with it!"
I'm not saying all the wolves should be shot on sight but their numbers need to be held in check!

Well said Elkslayer!!
You got your post in before I could get mine written! Good job!

DBKing,

In Texas, coyotes, bobcats, bears (until recently) and mountain lions could be shot on sight, thereby keeping their numbers in check.

If Texas protected the coyote, they'd do a tremendous amount of damage to your deer population in very short order. No more 4-5 deer on license in most counties.

The USFWS, prompted by the 'Greens' and anti-hunters, introduced wolves into ecosystems that were ill-prepared to receive them. Protecting the wolves from control measures (shooting, trapping, poisoning) only accelerated the detrimental effects of their reintroduction.

George

Up here in B.C we have our own wolf problems in some areas. Up north the wolves have almost eliminated the moose in a few areas. If you throw in the indians, they don't stand a chance.
On Vancouver Island they had a real problom with the wolfs threatening the Roosevelt elk(once again throw in the indians). They have recovered well now, but on the mid island there is the threat of the Vancouver Island Marmit going extinct. Bioligists say that there is only 30 left in the wild and the wolfs and cougers will have that small colony gone by next fall maybe. This marmit can not be found anywhere else in the world and would be a shame to lose it.
Now what realy makes me sick is that the antis are trying to blame this on deer hunters on vancouver Island. Not many deer get taken there and the elk are all limeted entry.
It is a fact that the wolf will focus on one prey and then after depleting it enough, move on to the next.
They are protesting a wolf cull and are pointing the finger at us. This time we are the solution and not the problem.
These antis on Vancouver Island are the ones hiking,biking,skiing ect.. in the areas in question.

I am not directing this posting at anyone I am though, surprised, that people anywhere in the U.S. are unaware of the harm the Wolves are doing here in the west! They are wiping out the Big Horn Sheep Hunting in many areas! The Elk Hunting is starting to suffer as well as the herds of Elk the tourists love to see all year in the Yellowstone area. Tourism is big business here in the northern Rockies! I spent a wonderful several days in Jackson Hole, Wyoming last February during the dead of winter. Lots of people travel there to view the wintering herds of Elk in the area. I spoke to business owners, residents, chamber of commerce employees, other tourists, skiers and even the Elk refuge employees and they are all dreading the inevitable outcome of this Wolf situation. I mean dreading it! The Wolves had not yet found this "Hole" filled with Elk but when they do who is going to want to go on a sleigh ride out amongst the Elk and watch a pack of Wolves kill a bunch of yearling Elk? Speaking of watching Wolves kill things - last year just south of me the Elk census helicopter watched 3 Wolves kill a small herd of Big Horn Sheep on a snowy ridge. They never ate any of them! Not 15 miles from my house a pair of Wolves killed 22 domestic sheep in one night! Non had been eaten!
I read somewhere the value to the State of Montana of each Elk in tourist and Hunter dollars I wish I could remember the exact figure it was like $1,700.00. Non-residents are paying $660.00 just for the general license that allows them to Hunt Elk here. Let alone the money they spend once they get here.
We can have lots of Wolves and no Huntable (for humans) Elk herds or very controlled numbers of Wolves and Huntable herds of Elk, Moose, Bighorn Sheep and Deer. I vote to kill off most of the Wolves and have healthy Game herds, tourism, Hunting and bugling Bulls come September.
I do have a certain animous toward Wolves and Coyotes as I have seen their predations first hand and would much rather have larger herds of Sheep, Antelope, Bison, Moose, Deer and Elk.
I can't wait to buy a Wolf tag!
Again let me be specific I do not wish for the Wolf to become extinct at all. But I would really like to preserve the Hunting we Hunters and some in the fish and game departments have worked so incredibly hard and paid so dearly to improve in the last 60 years in Montana, Idaho and Wyoming.
I testified at the hearings I attended that I thought the reintroduction of the Wolf in the west was nothing more than a backhanded attack on Sport Hunting. Nothing has changed my mind.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Shoot em in the face !
Seriously, wolves make an awesome trophy. I'd encourage hunters to whack one any chance they get. Now that they're dug in, you'll likely never erradicate them.

In the area where I hunted moose the last 4 years we have seen a steady decrease in the number of moose and a increase in the number of wolves. We used to only hear them at night and rarely saw them, now we see them all the time during the day and their tracks cover ours where we walked to our stands. The area is heavily trapped and they don't put a dent in the population. There are area's North of Fairbanks that a few years ago were good moose hunting areas that arn't worth hunting anymore. I'll shoot a wolf every chance I get.

About damn time! See my previous post on Montana winter report.

Now, hopefully, other counties will follow suit and allow legal harvesting of wolves.

It's about time...

We hunters have known all along that it was just a matter of time before the Wolf excrement would hit the oscillation. And it has.

I posted a short while back that a pair of Wolves were found just outside of Salt Lake killing sheep, they are spreading like wildfire and measures are in order.

Some serious predator hunting sounds intriguing and may be worth the drive, now if Wyoming would just begin alowing some Grizz permits..

All but one of the 9 regions here in B.C have a wolf season. 1/2 of them have 2 seasons. Bag limit is 3.
Only a few years ago there was no bag limit in a few areas. Political pressure changed that.

In Calif we have the same problem with mt lions. The environmentalists got a proposition passed about 15 years ago or so and now the lions are out of control. It is so bad, I had a CA Dept of Fish and Game "game warden" tell me to shoot the cougar on site. As long as I didnt approach it to remove, photograph, etc, I would not be arrested. A jogger near Auburn CA (a woman) was stalked and killed about 4 years ago or so, and based on Fish and Game analysis, they determined the cougar litterally "ate her alive". I wish they had told that to the public, and they didnt. The sad truth is our cougar population was being managed just fine (thank you) by cougar hunting season, until the uninformed urban population passed the proposition banning cougar hunting. Think about it, a game warden told me to kill the cougar, that about sums up the benefits of that silly a##ed law.
I wondered about this wolf thing, seemed like a pretty dumb idea to me, and now you have shown that it was. You have to wonder where the heads are of some of these wildlife biologists, etc. You dont need population dynamics assistance from wolves, when you have a healthy hunting season.

I agree with the idea of keeping them in check, just as I think coyotes ahould be. The only thing I think should happen is to have fairly priced tags for 2-3 wolves so they can be killed and controlled. This way, the state or county can make at least some money to help rebuild the game populations. It also might give the outfitters a different way to make something of a living. I would pay $100 for a tag and $500-$600 for an outfitter for a couple days hunt. I don't know if that is enough for the outfitter, but they could work year round. I would love to try some of my varmint calls out on them. It could keep the local motels in steady business as well.

I don't care to hunt Elk at the current prices. Been there, done that. The deer aren't as big as here in Kansas, so that is no draw, but a very large predator...hmmmm.

Oh, well. Just some thoughts.

Dont book your reservations for a wolf hunt in Wyoming just yet, while Fremont county has claimed that they are a predator and is urging shoot on sight the USFWS still hasnt delisted and completely turned over the management to the Wy G&F and once it is (if ever) in the hands of the local authorities there is no gaurentee that we will have a resident let alone a non-resident hunting season. I personally believe in the need to manage these predators and also the Grizz. The big game population in the GYE has suffered imensely in recent years. The wolves are a much larger factor than that of the bears. If the wolves dont get some type of management soon they will cross the Bighorn Basin and move eastward into the Bighorn Mountains soon. They are already there, most people just dont realize it and so far its only been scattered sightings of a loner roaming. Once they get comfortable the pack will follow.

Marsh Mule,

You display a rare combination of good intentions and unbelievable misinformation! You assume the Canadian’s thought, “Hey, we’ve got a wolf problem…let’s just live trap a bunch and ship them to the States!” Don’t forget, the USA asked for those wolves, we didn’t just take it upon ourselves to give them to you.

Just like the bald eagles from Nova Scotia that are given to the US because you poisoned so many of your National bird with DDT, and had to find replacements.

Just for sh!ts and giggles sometime, why don’t you live trap a wolf? The stupidest wolf makes the most intelligent coyote look like the village idiot! It’s one thing to snipe one from 300 yards with your rifle, it’s another matter entirely to set a live trap in the right location, quickly enough that you don’t leave any scent, and actually catch a wolf. Re the wolves that were sent to Montana from (mostly) Alberta about 10 years ago, it took professional trappers months to catch those few wolves. Yet you purport it was an easy way for us nasty Canadians to pass our problem onto you!

If you want to get rid of some wolves, you shoot em or at worst poison them. You DON’T decide to live trap them and “give” them to someone else!

FYI, we do have a long wolf season, and in some areas a problem with predation on caribou and moose calves. Although the prey and predator species can live in a balance. Can it be a severe problem in some areas? Of course! That’s why it’s called wildlife management.

I'm of the opinion that if handled properly, the wolf introduction could be a good thing.

Make them a huntable species, and let the hunters keep them in check. They're an awesome trophy and probably a real hoot to hunt.

Nothing wrong with a "few" wolves. A "whole bunch of protected wolves" on the other hand will wreck big game hunting.

RickF is right. The Canadian biologists told them they were a bunch of fools, but when did that ever stop a bureacrat with a grant?

I want to see wolves de-listed as much as anyone but what WY is doing with their "wolf management plan" is counter productive. They have proposed listing the wolf as a predator, with no protection, over much of the state. There is no way the USFWS will allow de-listing under these circumstances. By taking the moral, absolutist, high-ground WY is in effect holding up the whole process. The reality is that there will be several years of State management after de-listing with the Govt. boys doing all the control and then the wolf will go to big game/permit status which to my thinking is a solid way to manage them and one which makes money for the states. WY, in my opinion, is just playing to the people's gut dislike for the species instead of putting forward a reasonable management proposal and allowing the wolf to be de-listed asap.

I have lived most of my life where there were wolves. There have also been lots of prey animals in these areas. This situation has existed for thousands of years.
The elk populations here flucuate with changes in big game regulations which in turn change according to pressure from the ranchers. Ranchers apparently hate elk even more than they do wolves (wolves seldom eat hay).
I read in this thread that wolves have eradicated all the elk and most of the deer on the north fork of the Flathead in Montana. Now if you look at a map of the US you will see that adjacent to the state of Montana is Canada. It is amazing to me that the wolves have eradicated the elk on the Montana side but have not bothered with those on the Canadian side. There is no elk fence at the border and the wolves don't have to check in when they cross so, what is the explanation?
It seems to me the major concerns are really that the wolves will suddenly start slaughtering domestic sheep (This would be a good thing for elk, deer, and bighorns, by the way.)and they will kill and eat all the elk.
While wolves and other predators do kill elk, they have not managed to wipe them out in the tens of thousands of years they have been at it. Around the turn of the cenury (the one before y2k)elk were essentially wiped out in Wyoming but it wasn't by wolves. In fact the wolves were also pretty well wiped out.
I really like elk and deer and kind of like having them around (Ilike them a lot less when they eat my hay, wreck my fruit trees and trample the yard). But, I also like wolves, cougar,bears, badgers, and even coyotes and like having them around. They add to my surroundings. Sure, I occasionally shoot representives of all these species, but I still like to have them around.
I would bet that in Montana and Wyoming, just like in BC and Alberta, the domestic sheep and cattle and the people who own them have done much more to lower the numbers of elk,deer and wild sheep than the wolves have.
I often wonder where the mindset comes from that sees predators and scavengers as evil. I know guys here that feel you should shoot every buzzard you see. What the fuck for? Are they eating your share of rotten meat? The same thing applies to owls, hawks, and eagles. All of these have been singled out for special attention at some time or another.
We have wolves here. Around me there are a half dozen ranchers who kick cattle out onto the range every year. Now, from the stories many tell one would expect that most of the calves would certainly be slaughtered by the wolves every year. In reality I don't know of any. That's right, none. I know of a couple that were killed by black bears. I know of several that were killed by logging trucks. In spite of this, if there is one animal that most ranchers agree should be eliminated (after the elk)it's the wolf.
Ultimately the wolves will or will not be eliminated. It's not for me to say. As a native of Idaho though I would have to say I would have to be more concerned by the increase in the numbers of Californians entering the state than the numbers of wolves. Regards, Bill

It is great to see a little common sense and some decisions being based on solid game management and wildlife biology. Too many state game & fish departments and state boards are filling up with anti's. The anti's are patient, intelligent (but ignorant), and very well funded. As far as the USF&W and the US Forest Service, well........it may already be a lost cause.

One for the good guys!!

Bob

[ 02-01-2003, 08:29: Message edited by: Bob in TX ]

I am not a biologist.

I do not play a role in game management other than as a hunter.

The only thing I do have that I think is good and has served me well for over half a century is my logic and common sense. I know to trust only what I see and to doubt most of what I read in the news or hear second hand.

Having said that, the main thing I am basing my opinion on is the graphs of winter game counts done by our game management employees (which coorespond to hunter observations and success as recorded at game check stations and after season survey results) therefore they appear to be creditable.

I do believe these counts. I don't always agree whith the management practices and decisions based on those counts, but the counts have always correlated closely with other observations from independent sources.

Seems like there is a direct coorelation to the decline of game numbers in areas where there are wolves and that decline began precisely when the wolves were released from their acclimation pens.

I can not tell you why these wolves attack 6, 10, or more elk a night and leave them to lay dead, dying and un-eaten. But I have spoken to people I know, trust, and believe who have snowshoed and snowmobiled into these areas and have seen it first hand. I have seen the piles of un-eaten dead elk in these areas when I went there in the spring.

What makes this such a different situation than in B.C. or Alaska, I don't know, but it sure seems to be different based on the postings of the people who live in B.C. and Alaska.

Given the "progress" of this re-introduction and given the past performance of the change in the balance of things, I'd have to say the game herds in my state are in trouble like they have not been in trouble in the past 45 years of my active hunting life.

That is what I know and where I know it from.

And for those who are speaking up against the way Wyoming is proposing a dual classification on the wolves -

Pray tell me what is wrong with having them listed as a trophy animal in Yellowstone and the surrounding ecosystem and a shoot-on-sight predator in the rest of the state? After all, the whole idea was to have them "back in Yellowstone" if I recall right. Cause if it was to have them re-introduced in their "original area of habitation" then places like Kansas, Missouri, and Colorado to name a few had damn well better prepare for their release as well.

The basis for the argument against Wyoming's proposal (that I know of) is the Feds won't accept it.

Tough!

The Feds don't always get what they want because what they want isn't always in the people's best interest. If you differ with that statement I can name a pot full of "government programs" that are not in the publics best interest.

RickF & Bill Leeper: One of the problems in the U.S.A. with the wolves is that here in the U.S. we have much smaller areas suitable for Elk, Moose and Big Horn Sheep herds than you have in Canada. The aforementioned Big Game are concentrated in particular areas and easy prey for the Wolves. Also the Wolves here are universally protected and have been growing at 11% to 23% per year! The Wolves here are killing way to many Game Animals (and not eating a lot of what they kill)!
I do not fear or hate Wolves and I know of no one that does! I know a LOT of Big Game Hunters. We here in the U.S.A. have a clear choice between having exploding Wolf populations and soon no Hunting or we can severely restrict the Wolf numbers and continue our beloved way of life - Sport Hunting! I and most Hunters I know want to protect and maintain the Big Game herds we have so laboriously enhanced over the last 60 years! And the Wolves here are going to destroy those herds - no one that condones Sport Hunting here disagrees with that! Only the liberal anti-Hunters and tree huggers want the Wolves to continue expanding at this rate (that doubles their numbers every 4 to 5 years)! We simply can not have Sport Hunting for Elk, Moose and Big Horn Sheep and unlimited numbers of Wolves. Do not mistakenly oversimplify this situation as Americans hating and fearing Wolves - that is ridiculous!
I want the Hunting to continue and have worked hard and paid dearly for what successes we have attained.
I have travelled extensively in and Hunted in Canada and have lived on the border with Canada all my life, do not for a minute imply that Canadians did not use DDT!
Fearing for our Hunting future!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

[ 01-31-2003, 21:45: Message edited by: VarmintGuy ]

RickF;
I believe my intentions are most honorable here!
As for misinformation, I think not! Maybe my sumation of what the Canadians might say regarding taking back the wolves [IF all Yellowstone wolves could be caught!] is most likely wrong. At least as long as the cameras and microphones were turned on, I'm sure their responce would be much more eloquintly stated! Eh?
I think you need to go back and Read my post again.
I never said or implied that the Canadian government shipped wolves here on their own! What I said is they WILLINGLY COOPERATED with the US.
Where did "Eagles" enter the picture here?
Never mind.
As far as comparing intelligence between Wolves and Coyotes, wouldn't it be fair to say that includes, survival of the fittest, cunning, the ability to adapt, and all? With that being said until a few years back, barring their reintroduction to Yellowstone, there were no wolves in the Rocky Mountain region of the US? Sure are and always have been a lot of Coyotes though. I'd be willing to bet if the day ever came that the Wolf was to (God Forbid) become extinct, you'd still have Coyotes!
I've got to admit the Canadian bureacrats definately out did the US bureacrats here. I wonder what else Canada got for compensation? Talk about a win-win situation!

Marsh Mule, just keep watching CNN for your "facts", I'll keep doing this stuff for a living. Whatever gets you through the day...

May I suggest you go back and read Bill Leeper's post, again.

[ 01-31-2003, 22:29: Message edited by: RickF ]

RickF;
The only reason for me to watch CNN is for the upcoming fireworks in Iraq.
I'll not watch CNN for news on this "Wolf" subject, I'd rather have the real story, from the mouths of people experiencing it first hand. Some I know personally and some only through this Medium.
I read Mr. Leepers well written post. He made some valid points and laid out a good arguement, without having to twist someone elses statements.
I think he did a good job of getting his Point-of-view across.
Where the comment, about Californians invading his Ex-home state came from is interesting.
I don't know if that was directed towards me or Faulgur, who also posted here, or the both of us? If it was meant for me. Sorry, I'm not a native Californian, wasn't born here, don't claim to be one, I just happen to live here at this time.

I would have to say that there may be a difference between the wolves here in Alberta and British Columbia and those imported from here to the U.S.. They are all the same species and from the same bloodlines, the difference being that the U.S. wolves are adapted to man. These wolves have been handled and fed by man and never harmed and know that though their capture and handling may have been unpleasant and may have ruined their day they have learned that man is no real threat and will actually feed them. Their young haven't the same fear of humans taught to them as wild wolves here in canada that are hunted and shot at every time they get to close to livestock. They have been dumped off in areas where ungulate numbers are extremely high and haven't had to deal with any serious predation by wolves and are totally uneducated in how to deal with them. I don't believe anyone here is advocating their extinction, but they can become a real problem under these circumstances. They must be hunted and their numbers kept in check to ensure that they retain or recoup their fear of man and start staying away from ranches and livestock. A balance must be kept between the predator and prey. Make them a big game animal and hunt them just like any other animal, keep their population in control and they won't be anymore problem down there than they are up here.

Oscar;
That's one excellent post! You're 110% right on the money!
Now if the powers that be, can take off their blinders and see that kind of reasoning!

Great post Oscar, thanks.

MM, the powers that be understand this very well. Unfortunately, their agenda won't allow such compromise while there are no restraints on them and they have a decade head start on us. They have momentum up and are racing to achieve their stated goals before we can shut them down. Simple as that.

For all to whom this matters, it seems things went pretty well in Helena yesterday. The hearings were well attended and lively debate ensued. The shocker of the day was when Fish Wildlife & Parks SUPPORTED one of the bills - the one stating that any wolf management must be done with hunting and ranching as first priority consideration. No sacrifices of hunting will be allowed to accommodate wolves, per the bill. DANG!

Cheers gents

Redial

If you want good sound socialistic liberal news, watch CNN.

If you want good government, see the tenth amendment to the constitution of the United States. That pretty much covers Wyomings' stance, along with anyone else that spends time out in the mountains and sees what is going on. It is states rights. It seems we may have had a bit of an arguement about that back in the 1860's.

I can only say good luck in keeping the wolves under control by traditional hunting. In Canada the only way that we have been successful in culling wolves is through poison bait dropped from the air and by hunting with shotguns from helicopters. Those days are now gone, probably forever, the city dwellers will not longer allow it. The wolf is so wily that even trappers have a hard time getting them. The success rate of a hunter on foot in our woods is pretty small indeed.