Beating the 30-06 by ~150fps at the usual hunting distances (max 300 yards) is a huge yawn. What poi differences are we talking about with the usual bullet weights - maybe a .25"?

I think the 300 wsm is an interesting benchrest round for 500 meters and out.

[This message has been edited by Puddle (edited 05-11-2002).]

quote:

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Originally posted by Puddle:

Beating the 30-06 by ~150fps at the usual hunting distances (max 300 yards) is a huge yawn. What poi differences are we talking about with the usual bullet weights - maybe a .25"?

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The difference at 300 yards is about 1" less and at 400 yards about 3" less for the WSM. The energy differences are about 300 ft lbs more for the WSM at all ranges.

The WSM is more accurate, and has about the same recoil than the .30-06, and can use a lighter rifle. But I wouldn't trade in a good .30-06 for one.

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Ethiopian Rift Valley Safaris

quote:

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Originally posted by KuduKing:
The WSM is more accurate....

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Whoa, hold on a minute, Kudu. I think the WSM needs to win about half as many national target matches as the 30/06 before we start making wild accuracy claims.

And to any who think the WSM will replace the /06....never happen. HOWEVER, the arrival of the WSM may well be the doom of some OTHER cartridges, like the .30 Win Mag etc.

Personally I think it's WAY too early to start digging graves. JMO

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A well placed bullet is worth 1,000 ft/lbs of energy.

The .30-'06 is available internationally in every type of firearm, and in almost every manufacturer's line. The .300 WSM is a proprietary cartridge in Browning-Winchester rifles.

Years ago Remington published a graph of accuracy achieved versus caliber for the cartridges that they chambered in their M40 target rifles. Generally that was .222 Rem to .300 Mag. The curve was smooth, but accuracy decreased as you went up in caliber and recoil.

I have never owned a .300 Mag rifle, but I think I would try one of the short magnums in the right rifle. Either that or a .300 H&H in a more traditional hunting rifle.

jim dodd

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"if you are to busy to
hunt, you are too busy."

I know for a fact it doesn't do what folks think it will velocity wise, without feeling more recoil to the body than the 300 Win mag delivers. Not in those so lightweight rifles some companies are using for the caliber.

I think the 300 WSM has a lot to offer, but I feel the same about .358Win, 35Whelen, 10mm, 41Mag, lots of good rounds never make it in the mainstream. And presently there are so many established .308 cal cartridges from 30-30Win to 300 Weatherby that I do not see the 300WSM or 300 RUM sweeping the market.

Being a military cartridge is the surest way to dominate, or at least become a serious player for a new round, I think. Who would have imagined the popularity still held by the 45LC and 45-70.

Just my 2 cents, MM

Mike

quote:

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Originally posted by Pecos45:
Whoa, hold on a minute, Kudu. I think the WSM needs to win about half as many national target matches as the 30/06 before we start making wild accuracy claims...

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Your comparison is about as relevant as as which cartridge sells more factory ammo every year.

The .30-06 has had a 96 year head start, in an era when it was oversold as the greatest thing since sliced white bread.

And who gives a rat's ass about "national target matches"? That is meaningless as far as inherent accuracy of a cartridge, or practical accuracy in a sporter rifle.

The .30-06 was a great cartridge in yesteryear. The WSM is better

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Originally posted by Eagle Eye:
King..once again, we disagree. The recoil from identical models and weights between the 30-06 and 300 WSM are NOT the same....

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For starters, mea culpa. I meant to refer to a comparison between the WSM and the .300 Win Mag.

But I would say that the WSM kicks about the same as the .30-06, and that any difference is imperceptible.

I'm glad you did ran that through a ballistic program. Did you calculate recoil energy, recoil impulse or recoil velocity? There are three measures, as I'm sure you are aware, being the physics buff that you seem to be.

Indeed, the NRA Fireams Fact Book states, "It should be mentioned that the...sensation of recoil is affected by factors not taken into account in these calculations."

quote:

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Originally posted by Rich Elliott:
Put me on record for predicting that the .300 WSM will go the way of the 6.5 Remington Magnum.
Rich Elliott

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Then you should buy several and sell them at a premium in 20 years.

quote:

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Originally posted by T/Jazz:
...I know for a fact it doesn't do what folks think it will velocity wise, without feeling more recoil to the body than the 300 Win mag delivers. Not in those so lightweight rifles some companies are using for the caliber.

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You are making ZERO sense. Buy a chronograph and a WSM and find out yourself. The WW 180 grain PP load chronos 2978 fps average at 15 feet from the muzzle, out of the Model 70 Featherweight, which isn't exactly a featherweight anyway. This meets or exceeds the factory ballistics.

Put a .300 WinMag in a 24' barrel Model 70 and it will kick more at the same velocity.

quote:

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Originally posted by RMK:
How many people in the benchrest circles are out there using a 300wsm? I ...

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The serious benchrest shooters I know fire .22 CFs. And they all agree with the greater accuracy potential of a short high-capacity case, regardless of calibre.

quote:

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Originally posted by GSF1200:
The 300WSM is all hype

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That's what the .30-40 Krag and the .30-30 shooters said about the '06 when it came out. I guess the '06 has been all hype for the past century.

The winds of change are blowing, old timers. The old farts will get along fine with their trusty old '06, with memories of game dancing in their backyards, red and black wool hunting coats and Hoppes #9.

The younger guys, with less hunting time and access, will want something more capable and accurate, but still shooter-friendly, and so will get the WSM.

Sorry Springfield fans, It's been a great run, but it's time to move on.

Benchresters shoot 6mm PPC far more than 22s.

This whole issue of accuracy and short and fat cases is way overblown.

If you have ever shot benchrest and compared calibers like 222, 6mm PPC and 6 X 47, you will find that either caliber maybe the most accurate from a limited selection of rifles.

One of things that helped the PPCs along their merry way is that you can use a 308 bolt face/extractor for them whereas that is just not on for the 222 case head size.

I think most benchresters would agree that if a match had 90 222 shooters and 10 PPC shooters, the 222s would win the day. In other words the accurayc differences are so small that they will be overriden by the number of guns being used.

I have a few barrels on bench guns in both 6mm/284 and 6mm/06. The 6mm/06 seemed to be better. But that would have been so for at least 3 reasons. One would have been luck of the draw with barrels. Another may have been the individual JGS reamers used. Another may have been that necking down 25/06 cases is a better proposition than necking down 284 cases to 6mm, especially since neck turned chamber was not used.

Now perhaps if I had 50 different barrels in both 6mm/284 and 6mm/06 and they had been chambered with different reamers etc. then maybe some small accuracy gain might have been seen with the 6mm/284.

When it comes to rifles that are of hunting style configuration and comparing calibers that are similar in bore size and case capacity, final accuracy will be determined by the rifle/scope/mount setup, not the caliber.

I could think of different reasons why I would choose a 300 WSM over either a 30/06 or 300 Win, but accurayc would not be one of the reasons.

Mike

How will the 300 WSM beat this by any significant margin?

MM

quote:

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Originally posted by KuduKing:
Then you should buy several and sell them at a premium in 20 years.

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I don't know if that would be worth it or not. Anyway, my money's all tied up in stocks and bonds and hunt deposits.
Rich Elliott

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Ethiopian Rift Valley Safaris

I really don't know what the future holds for the .300 WSM, but I suspect it'll continue to grow in popularity......

Personally, I'm going to stick with the .300 Win. Mag. version that was introduced back in 1963. Thousands of rounds fired through various rifles and over 100 big game animals on the ground have taught me all I need to know about that cartridge - more than the gunwiters have taught me about it OR the .300 WSM, that's for damned sure.

The .300 Winchester is my all-time favorite big game caliber. The archaic belt that's supposed to be so very problematic has not caused me any problems, and contrary to those gunwriters who claim the .300 WSM is just as fast or faster, I can still get right at 3100 fps. out of the .300 Win. Mag. with 180 gr. bullets, and with reasonable pressures. Maybe someone else is getting the same speed out of the .300 WSM with special handloads, but I haven't heard about it.

AD

The WSM's require very precise machinig to feed well, particularly in a CRF action. That fat body and sharp shoulder create problems that the old-time, slope-shouldered rounds avoid (purposefully). I've never experienced a feeding problem with any of the belted magnums I've owned. Granted, on most "magnum's" the belt is there as a marketing feature, but if you resize your brass so they headspace on the shoulder, what's the big deal?

While the 300 WSM delivers velocity greater than any 30-06 can, I'm doubtful it actually means much other than a slightly flatter trajectory. If a .308" 180 grainer at 2,750 can't do it, I'm doubtful tacking on an additional 200 or 300 fps will do it either... better to go up in bullet diameter and weight.

I shortened the barrel on Model 70 300 WSM to 22". I'm still getting 2,900 to 2,980 fps with 180's, depending on the powder and bullet used. Recoil, however, is there. If the recoil of a 300 Win Mag bothers you, the 300 WSM will bother you too. Better, then, to go to a 308 or 30-06.

As pointed out, the short-fat cartridges are not new. Two of our local gunsmith's have had their own line of short-fatty's for years. Dave Gentry designed his on the 404 Jefferey case in the 1980's. Ralph Payne has chambered his line since the 1960's. Ralph's use the .348 Winchester case with the rim turned-down (sound familiar?) and incorporates the Weatherby "radius" shoulder. The similar Gradle rounds were created in the 1950's.

Regarding accuracy, I'm fairly convinced that in a side-by-side shooting of factory WSM's and factory belted-mag rifles, the WSM's will be more accurate. The WSM's headspace more precisely and most factory chambers cut for the belted mag's are quite sloppy. Still, in a "properly crafted" custom-built rifle, any of the belted mag's can be made to shoot more accurately than most could ever take advantage of in the field, so all this accuracy talk is probably meaningless in a big game rifle.

Personally, I'm waiting for the medium-bore WSM's to come out. I'd like to re-barrel my 300 WSM to a .358 or .375 WSM. With a 20" bbl., I think it would be the cat's-meow for cruising the steep timber!

Trying to stay objective...

Brad Amundson

[This message has been edited by Brad (edited 05-12-2002).]

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Don Nelson
Sw. PA.

With better bullets the 7mm bore could take over and provide the same effect as what we get now from .30 caliber.

I think we will finally get free of the belted headspace menace with it's out of tolerance cases on the minimum size and chambers on the maximum size.

The .308 Winchester is the only cartridge that may replace the 30/06 and even then the 30/06 is more flexible with it's ability to shoot heavier bullets at adequate velocity.

You may be right. I don't think so. Only time will tell.

Sometimes being a better performer doesn't guarantee much.

Who would think the 30-30 would still be so popular, considering "better" woods cartridges (33 Win, 35Rem, 307 Win, 375 Win, 358 Win, 350 RemMag, 444Marlin.....) that never even came close to unseating the ballistically inferior, but familiar and effective 30-30.

Kind of like how 243 owners are not dumping their rifles for the superior but user-friendly .260Rem, One of the better cartridges to come out lately, in my opinion. MM

30/06
223
270
308
45/70
243

Notice they are all miltary calibers or straight neck downs of militaty calibers.

Mike

BA

I bought mine because I wanted a bigger rifle than the .25/06 I have used for over 15 years. Of all the .308's I chose it because it works well for what I want, a light weight walk around hunting rifle that does its job well.

I imagine that I could have got any of the others and been perfectly happy with that as well.

quote:

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Originally posted by KuduKing:
For starters, mea culpa. I meant to refer to a comparison between the WSM and the .300 Win Mag.

But I would say that the WSM kicks about the same as the .30-06, and that any difference is imperceptible."

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Wow, if you think a 27% difference in recoil levels is imperceptable, I would have to conclude that your perceptions have been severely shaken, by too much recoil.

Some of you folks should take a real good look at figures. The 30-06 is hear to stay and South of the Mason Dixon line it is the 270 at the top of the totem pole. The 30-06 with the right bullet in the chamber, can kill anything on this planet.

This thing with new calibers and other gajets reminds me of the golf industry coming up with a new sensational club to market to the BLIND public every year. Amazes me how many suckers there arem who bit the bullet so to speak and buy them. The gun industry does the same thing......cause there are so many turkeys out there gobbling up the crap some gunwriters put down on print. Hey wake up people, they receive a paycheck for doing so and fringe benefits like a FREE elk hunt and lodging, while testing out this new miracle caliber.

These new magnums aren't going to unseat the 7mm mag or the 300 Win mag, let alone the 30-06. It's kind of like someone telling me that my 1977 deuce & 1/4 Buick is not the highway car a new Lincoln Towncar is, Hell NO, it is twice as good. More power under hood and twice as heavy, rides like a magic carpet, even has camel ride options. Now don't let the gunrags & gun industry pull the wool over your eyes folks. Now you can take that to the bank or the oil fields gentlemen.

As to recoil, to me felt recoil is what matters, and with my two rifles, I don't notice hardly any difference. Stock design and composition are not the same and that probably accounts for some of the felt recoil perceptions.

Why do some people appear to be big fans of the 300 Win Mag, and not like the wsm. They shoot identical bullets within a couple feet per second of each other. I built my wsm on a Ruger tang safety- long action. I really like that action, but its length prohibits getting full benefit of 180gr Barnes XLC in a 300Win Mag. They need to be seated pretty deep to fit the magazine. My 300wsm is throated to allow the Barnes to be seated to the base of the neck. OAL is 3.15". I get 3125fps with the 180gr Barnes X. I don't know if the same bullet can be used in a Ruger in 300 Win Mag to that velocity. What I built may not make sense, but hey, it is my rifle, my money, and I'm happy with it.

Regarding those who say that anyone who buys a new rifle to have a new caliber is a fool- remember that it is sales that keep the manufacturers in business. You slam the 300wsm today- did you slam the 300 Win Mag when it was introduced? If everyone thought that way we would still be hunting with sticks and rocks. The wsm is no newer today than the 30-06 was when it was introduced, or self contained cartridges were when introduced or muzzle loaders, etc.....

The beauty of having choices is you have more than one to choose from.

All that having been said, if I had to choose only one, it would be my 7mm Dakota, also on a Ruger action. I do love that cartridge!!

My 30-06 (26" barrel) shoots moly coated 190gr Sierra Matchkings at 2902 fps with a charge of 63gr RL-22. This load shoots sub moa consistently, 10-shot groups usually are around .8 with 8 or 9 shots within .4.
How will the 300 WSM beat this by any significant margin?

MM

My 300WSM with 23" barrel and 200gr Barnes X on top of 69gr RL-19 gives me 2932fps on a 10 shot average at 15 feet from muzzle. If I do some interpelation I figure an extra 3 inches of tube would give me an additional 100 fps or so. If I figure it out with 190gr bullet weight and 26" tube I'm looking at an additional 100fps to give a velocity of about 150 to 200fps faster than your 26" tube 30-06 or 3100fps for a 190gr bullet.

...Peter