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I posted this in the varmint forum also, just to get some different input. Federal regs say you can't shoot across a "body of water." So what is the definition of a body of water? After asking about a dozen people who are all avid hunters and getting no answer, I called four different law/regulation agencies (ODFW, OSP, BLM and the ODFW guy who rights the synopsis) and again got no real answer. I am now asking you guys if anybody has run into problems with this OR if anyone can provide some website or publication where the answer lies? I have searched the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), and the Oregon Revised Statues (ORS) and was not sucessful in finding any definition of a "body of water," except some in the fishing section since the regs are comingled to some extent and it only pertained to that specific regulation. Any ideas? JUST A TYPICAL WHITE GUY BITTERLY CLINGING TO GUNS AND RELIGION Definition of HOPLOPHOBIA "I'm the guy that originally wrote the 'assault weapons' ban." --- Former Vice President Joe Biden | ||
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What's the context? What does this reg have to do with? | |||
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Flippy, Great question...it is going to be one of those things that is defined by the totality of the facts and circumstances. Curious if it is just a big game reg or a general hunting reg because if it is general hunting kinda reg hard to duck hunt then. One way to do this is to look at the things that you know it is and is not. What is most likely is: Any named lake on a government map Any government made reservoir Any navigable river Anything under the authoirty of the United States Coast Guard Things it is most likely not: 1) Any stream you can step across 2) Any seasonal pond 3) Any body of water less than say a foot deep Mike Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I'm with Mike on this one. Rich | |||
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Which Federal Regulation is being referenced? Context is very important and a little snippet is not good for much. As I see it your blanket statement of "Federal regs say you can't shoot across a "body of water." is incorrect. Here is a bit from 36 C.F.R. 261.10, emphasis by me. "Title 36: Parks, Forests, and Public Property PART 261—PROHIBITIONS Subpart A—General Prohibitions Browse Previous | Browse Next § 261.10 Occupancy and use. The following are prohibited: (a) Constructing, placing, or maintaining any kind of road, trail, structure, fence, enclosure, communications equipment, or other improvement on National Forest System lands or facilities without a special use authorization, contract, or approved operating plan, unless such authorization, contract, or operating plan is waived pursuant to §251.50(e) of this chapter. (b) Taking possession of, occupying, or otherwise using National Forest System lands for residential purposes without a special-use authorization, or as otherwise authorized by Federal law or regulation. (c) Selling or offering for sale any merchandise or conducting any kind of work activity or service unless authorized by Federal law, regulation, or special-use authorization. (d) Discharging a firearm or any other implement capable of taking human life, causing injury, or damaging property as follows: (1) In or within 150 yards of a residence, building, campsite, developed recreation site or occupied area, or (2) Across or on a National Forest System road or a body of water adjacent thereto, or in any manner or place whereby any person or property is exposed to injury or damage as a result in such discharge. (3) Into or within any cave. ... " What is the intended meaning of this phase in this portion of code? "Across or on a National Forest System road or a body of water adjacent thereto, ..." Code of Federal Regulations site http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/get-cfr.cgi | |||
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If that's the reg in question, what they don't want is people shooting on or across a road (a car can appear just as you pull that trigger) and also across a road from water adjacent to the road. Therein is the definition of "body of water". This assumes the shooter is on a boat or maybe is wading or in a duck blind. In theory then this means the "body of water" could even be an ocean. All it rules out is a "body of water" one couldn't shoot across. That might take in your basic rain puddle or something. At any rate, it's clumsy wording, ambiguous and generally not a model of clarity. | |||
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oprah | |||
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Realistically--- a body of water is going to be whatever the F&G officer says is one when he writes you a citation. | |||
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Hey Flippy, I completely agree with BuckEyeShooter. I moved around over the Southeast a good bit when I was working. As I'd arrive in a new State, I'd pick up a copy of the Rulers & Regs at a GunShop or Wal-Mart and spend sometime studying them. Most things are rather clear, but occasionally I'd see something that I could interpret in more than one way. So, I'd call the Fish & Wildlife Department and ask to meet one of them when it would be convenient for them. Always met some fine people that way and they were glad to explain the Regulation as they understood it. I'd get their Business Card and ask them to put the Reg# on the back and sign it. Then it went into my Hunting Documents(maps, R&Rs, etc.) in the truck. I'd also follow-up with a Thank You letter which outlined our discussion, with a copy going to the F&W guys boss. Never had a problem with any kind of tricky Reg after that. Even got some good tips on places that had an abundance of Game and people who welcomed Hunters onto their property. ----- Some of the R&Rs look like they have been written by Antis. The N.C. R&Rs would be a good example. They have it written so a Season opens on one side of a Road, but closed on the other side. Certain firearms are allowed in one area during a specific time period, but not in others. And on and on... So, I got to meet a good many F&W folks over the years. All were polite and professional. It was nice to meet them. I can recommend it highly. If you have trouble finding a Fed F&W guy, they normally show up in abundance during Dove Season. ----- Good question. I'd probably interpret it as basically an area holding "non-flowing" water. But, I can also see where they would not wanting Lead flying across a River. I'd have to ask the local F&W guy if it was me. Good Hunting and clean 1-shot Kills. | |||
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Whenever analyzing these types of laws it's a good idea to think back to "what were they thinking when they wrote this law? What good were they trying to achieve or what bad were they trying to stop?". To be in violation, you would have had to caused a discharge, that resulted in injury or damage to a person or property, across a NFS road or body of water adjacent thereto. Here's the section: (2) Across or on a National Forest System road or a body of water adjacent thereto, or in any manner or place whereby any person or property is exposed to injury or damage as a result in such discharge. My take is that the body of water was written in to cover ricochets/skips over "a body of water adjacent to a road". That leaves us with "what the heck is a body of water"? Intrigued, I searched high and wide, including in the Federal Regs, without any luck. If anyone has access to a Black's Law Dictionary it may prove helpful. At this point, I'm with the others that it doesn't much matter unless the discharge/injury occurs, then it will be decided by the investigating officer(s). On a slightly unrelated note - In my search I also found an alarming section that many are also not aware of: PART 261 - PROHIBITIONS subpart a - GENERAL PROHIBITIONS 261.22 - Unauthorized use of “Smokey Bear” and “Woodsy Owl” symbol. (a) Manufacture, importation, reproduction, or use of Smokey Bear except as provided under 271.2, 271.3, or 271.4 is prohibited. (b) Manufacture, importation, reproduction, or use of Woodsy Owl except as provided under 272.2, 272.3, or 272.4 is prohibited. . "Listen more than you speak, and you will hear more stupid things than you say." | |||
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This sounds like the best idea. And unfortunately, Buckeyeshooter is probably correct! JUST A TYPICAL WHITE GUY BITTERLY CLINGING TO GUNS AND RELIGION Definition of HOPLOPHOBIA "I'm the guy that originally wrote the 'assault weapons' ban." --- Former Vice President Joe Biden | |||
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It means that you cannot shoot "across or on" a lake or river that is adjacent to a NF system road. That seems odd as I bet there are some darned BIG lakes right next to roads in this country! What if the short end of the lake is adjacent to the road but you are hunting 50 km away at the other end of the same lake?!?!? What gets me is the no shooting within 150 yards of a campsite. I'll bet more than a few on this board have broken that law when game wandered close to camp (me included)! I also like the bit about being prohibited from shooting within 150 yards of an "occupied area". So....do four other hunters walking in a group on the mountain transform their space into an "occupied area such that I cant fire in the opposite direction from them if within 150 yards? This is going to make even western states' public land hunts an interesting legal exercise. It looks very clear to me that the law was written to make anyone and EVERYONE a lawbreaker at any given moment such that, if you are generally perceived as being a bonehead, you can be written up for SOMETHING. | |||
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tendrams I agree with you on the fuzziness of these restrictions, it seems there is very little opportunity to be fully legal. The reason I asked that question is that the original desire was definition of a "body of water" but it appeared to be offered in a manner that suggested federal law prohibits one from ever shooting across a body of water. My contention is that the offered statement is a "near truth" in that the federal law restricting shooting across a body of water is other than the blanket statement offered. Without knowledge of the complete restriction these myths propagate unchecked. (I can find several "Hunter Safety" class statements that seem to back the claim that according to federal law a hunter cannot shoot across a body of water BUT these statements do not include the adjacent to a national forest road system determinant. It appears to me a falsehood is being propagated and subsequently taken as gospel.) | |||
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DEPENDS ON WHAT THE MEANING OF IS IS.........slick wille clinton.................  LIFE IS SHORT..... | |||
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Check with the Army Corp of Engineers. They have jurisdiction on "navigable waterways". Robert If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people, under the pretense of taking care of them, they must become happy. Thomas Jefferson, 1802 | |||
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That is another great idea, thanks! JUST A TYPICAL WHITE GUY BITTERLY CLINGING TO GUNS AND RELIGION Definition of HOPLOPHOBIA "I'm the guy that originally wrote the 'assault weapons' ban." --- Former Vice President Joe Biden | |||
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Here is one of the many links when you search "shooting across a body of water prohibited" Shooting... Take notice of the second paragraph were you find this statement: The BLM has responded to complaints by enforcing Federal regulations which prohibit shooting across roads, trails, bodies of water, and toward areas where people are camped, picnicking, or gathered. Every instance of a regulation prohibiting shooting across a body of water, none give a definition of a "body of water. They all include some form of the same blanket statement "...Federal regulations which prohibit shooting across roads, trails, bodies of water... I understand your statement: My contention is that the offered statement is a "near truth" in that the federal law restricting shooting across a body of water is other than the blanket statement offered, however, there it is in another official document. My question is while you find this or a very similar statement, there is no reference to where the actual Federal law, or definition exists. That to me is problematic. JUST A TYPICAL WHITE GUY BITTERLY CLINGING TO GUNS AND RELIGION Definition of HOPLOPHOBIA "I'm the guy that originally wrote the 'assault weapons' ban." --- Former Vice President Joe Biden | |||
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Copied from the link provided by Flippy. "The BLM has responded to complaints by enforcing Federal regulations which prohibit shooting across roads, trails, bodies of water, and toward areas where people are camped, picnicking, or gathered." I believe that if you search the federal regulations you will find the "adjacent thereto" conditional statement. The blanket (summary) statement provided by BLM in the link is not federal law but refers to federal statues which should be consulted. If this is the primary document you are concerned with as a limiter on shooting across bodies of water I'd contact BLM and ask for clarification and the actual federal statues which they are referencing. If they state 36 C.F.R. 261.10 I'd ask about the unqualified body of water statement in the BLM document. I don't believe BLM makes laws, and their document is not law but references federal regulations. | |||
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This is just one of MANY. As I stated above, they all reference this mysterious Federal law. As I stated in my original post, the BLM was my third phone call. They were just a clueless as the rest were... JUST A TYPICAL WHITE GUY BITTERLY CLINGING TO GUNS AND RELIGION Definition of HOPLOPHOBIA "I'm the guy that originally wrote the 'assault weapons' ban." --- Former Vice President Joe Biden | |||
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I guess the easiest way to find out what federal regulation they are referencing is to ask them what they'd put on the citation as to the law violated. The government is a strange organization, many known things are just items that have been passed mouth-to-mouth over the years and through the various employees filing the desks. It is often a difficult search to find the end of the string and the origin of the near truth. | |||
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Did you call BLM in D.C. or a local office? | |||
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Eugene district office. I actually talked to one of the BLM enforcement officers. I was told that to the best of his knowledge, it refers to ANY body of water, running or not, that may or may not have water in it year round (seasonal water) while there is water in it. A drainage ditch, for example. He did say that if I found the answer to call him back and let him know where, as he had never read the actual law himself! I have on occasion over the years had to call the BATFE and other "large" government offices and have found without fail, the higher up the chain the office is, the less they know about day-to-day happenings. I think the suggestion to talk with the actual local game officer (I know him) and get what his take is on this is the best idea so far. If I know what he would consider a ticketable infraction, all I have to do is to NOT do that!! lol JUST A TYPICAL WHITE GUY BITTERLY CLINGING TO GUNS AND RELIGION Definition of HOPLOPHOBIA "I'm the guy that originally wrote the 'assault weapons' ban." --- Former Vice President Joe Biden | |||
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FINALLY talked to the local game enforcement officer (Oregon State Police) last night at a school function… He was as bored as I was and more than happy to talk about anything except 2nd grade reading… I told him Federal regulations prohibit shooting across a body of water. I asked him what constitutes a body of water. He told me, “I believe that law was written to keep campgrounds and other populated areas in the forest safe. In other words, places were there might be people around. It was put in place to keep people from shooting towards areas in the forest where people are most likely to be around, and not always seen.” When I asked him if a stream you could jump across (and I gave him a specific named example) would constitute a body of water, he replied, “No. I would definitely not consider that a legal body of water or anything like that; a small pond, etc. That was not the original intention of the law.” He also told me if I saw any ODFW officers around when I was up in the woods, to ask them what their definition was. He said, “I believe they will agree with me.” I made the comment that it sounded as though the law was written to try and eliminate “stupidity.” He said, “Correct. I believe that’s what it was originally intended to do; to help eliminate unnecessary problems around areas with people.” Bottom line. When in doubt, ask the guy who writes the ticket. JUST A TYPICAL WHITE GUY BITTERLY CLINGING TO GUNS AND RELIGION Definition of HOPLOPHOBIA "I'm the guy that originally wrote the 'assault weapons' ban." --- Former Vice President Joe Biden | |||
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If the Oberstar Bill passes in Congress, it will change the law to basically mean even a mud puddle in your backyard will be classified as 'Waters of the U.S.'; thereby, changing the Clean Water Act. It is something those of us who work in and around aquatic pesticide applications certainly doesn't want and could even cause problems with homeowner pesticide applications and the need for NPDES permits. NOT GOOD!!!!! Graybird "Make no mistake, it's not revenge he's after ... it's the reckoning." | |||
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Hey Flippy, Looks like you are getting as many random answers from the Enforcement folks as you are from us. No wonder it is confusing. Perhaps a short letter written to the Fish and Wildlife folks asking for a "written" clarification would help. And tell them of all the different "opinions" you have recieved from the Enforcement folks you have talked to. I'd also copy the Head of the Department as well as my state Senator and State Representative. Putting them on the spot instead of guessing at what to do, should at least get their attention that the Requirement is not clearly written. There are a lot of N.C. Hunting Regs written as confusingly as possible. It appears peta or some other whacko group was in on the writing to make them as goofey as possible. Best of luck to you. | |||
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