It was merely a matter of time.

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/ne...eases/?req=20120710a

Not good.

Fall of 2011 opening rifle weekend there was a TPWD biologist at the processor I use. He was checking for CWD and asked if he could take a sample, I said sure. He said they had never found it on white tail (what I had), but were on the look-out all the time for CWD.

This was in the Hill Country. West Texas is going to be hard to get in there and cull any affected populations due to the expansiveness, terrain, and very low population density of people/hunters/ranchers.

Ready to be flamed so go for it. I think CWD is a crock of shit. It has always been in deer populations in some level. Deer management has increase the size of deer herds and deer densities. Combine that with large scale testing for CWD the prevalence of the disease is going to seem like it is exploding. It is not, just more populations of infected animals are being found. Greater population increases the odds of finding a infected animal.

When CWD become a hot button issues about a decade ago when it was found in my state of Wisconsin I was concerned. But the more I looked into it and where the disease has been found since I think very little of what we are being told is true.

There have been several cases found nowhere near previous cases and no where near games farms that are the supposed start of all of this.

It all seems pretty simple to me. A disease has been floating around for years and years. Small percentage of isolated populations have the disease. Increase the population you increase the odds of more animals infected with the disease throw in modern science and you are going to find all kinds of cases of this "new" disease.

Just too many unconnected findings of CWD for me to believe it is anything other than a historic disease,we are only now discovering to what extent it exists.

No flaming, just some info I picked up about the disease. Everyone is entitled to their own take on the subject.

From all the materials I have read, the disease got its start at Fort Collins Colorado at a Federal Wildlife experiment station. They began experiencing a die off among the animals they were holding at the station, but before any real progress was made toward finding out what was causing the die off, the goverment cut funding for the project, and all the animals were released back into the wild, and it spread from there.

The problem with it being in Texas is many fold. Majority of land in Texas is privately owned, the deer herd, especially white tails is above the carrying capacity of the available forage base so there is a lot of supplemental feeding going on which concentrates the animals, which from my research allows for a faster spread of the disease.

Deer hunting/deer farming combined are a multi-billion dollar industry. While I prefer the authorities to rationally address the situation, if I remember correctly the Wisconsin authorities decided on almost a "Scorched Earth" policy and attempted to or did basically wipe out all the deer in a fairly large area. I may be wrong on that, but I was thinking that is what happened up in one of the states in that part of the country.

I just prefer to err on the side of caution in such matters and a knee jerk reaction by the authorities, state or federal would have a major impact on Texas' economy.

mike7mm08---I agree with you 100% and the more testing they do the more they are going to find what they're looking for! I do think captive herds are more likely to cause a problem if they are infected with anything for the mere fact that they are a captive population and sometimes in very small enclosures.

CHC---I know the disease was first found there, but who knows where it started or if it's in all herds to some extent and just happened to be found there first. You were right on the button as far as your Wisconsin comment and the way they handled it. Michigan did almost the same thing when TB was found up in the northeastern part of the lower peninsula a number of years ago.

CWD was first reported in WI in 2002. At the time there were dire predictions that the tradition of deer hunting in the Badger State would come to an end because CWD will eventually wipe out the deer herd.

It didn't happen.

A CWD "hot zone" was established in the south-central part of the state. Tags were liberally handed out and the season was (and remains) extended. The plan was to drastically reduce the deer population; it was, indeed, a "scorched earth" policy.

It didn't happen.

The DNR can hand out tags like Halloween candy and extend the season year-round but it wouldn't accomplish the goal of a significant herd reduction over such a wide area. I've done enough ag damage control to know that very few hunters are able / willing to put in the necessary time and effort. Not to mention being willing to handle potentially infected carcasses. It would take a military strike with full-auto, FLIR-sighted firearms and maybe even chemical weapons put a big enough dent in the deer herd. I don't think the public (hunters and non-hunters alike) would stand for that.

I don't mean to downplay the potential danger of CWD epidemic but it sure bears a striking resemblance to so-called global warming. By that I mean the sudden emergence, dire predictions and the call for immediate and drastic action that would likely be of little use. My belief is that CWD (and global warming "climate change") has existed since the beginning of time. The only reason it finally got noticed is because somebody went looking. Humans did not start it and will not be able to stop it.

As an aside, I did my part in 2002. The DNR was putting on seminars for it's field technicians to teach them how to remove the lymph nodes for CWD testing. This was in preparation for wide-spread testing to be done during the upcoming hunting season. When the seminar was held in my area (in August) they needed a freshly killed deer. I was called by the local game warden (because I had ag damage tags) and asked to provide a young, healthy deer shot in the heart / lungs only. No head or gut shots, no roadkill. I was able to fill the request but it felt strange to be dropping off a deer carcass behind the DNR station after hours and during the closed season.

quote:

Originally posted by mike7mm08:
Ready to be flamed so go for it. I think CWD is a crock of shit. It has always been in deer populations in some level. Deer management has increase the size of deer herds and deer densities. Combine that with large scale testing for CWD the prevalence of the disease is going to seem like it is exploding. It is not, just more populations of infected animals are being found. Greater population increases the odds of finding a infected animal.

When CWD become a hot button issues about a decade ago when it was found in my state of Wisconsin I was concerned. But the more I looked into it and where the disease has been found since I think very little of what we are being told is true.

There have been several cases found nowhere near previous cases and no where near games farms that are the supposed start of all of this.

It all seems pretty simple to me. A disease has been floating around for years and years. Small percentage of isolated populations have the disease. Increase the population you increase the odds of more animals infected with the disease throw in modern science and you are going to find all kinds of cases of this "new" disease.

Just too many unconnected findings of CWD for me to believe it is anything other than a historic disease,we are only now discovering to what extent it exists.

You hit the nail on the head!!!

Last I remember, no one has ever caught it from deer. Is that still true or not?

As I say, I am going by what I found out while doing research when CWD first got started in Colorado/Wyoming in the l990's. I remember the response from hunters as many of them canceled guided hunts because of the fear of contracting the disease.

As I stated earlier, Deer Hunting/Deer Breeding/Exotic Cervid Hunting and Farming are big business in Texas.

The parameters I am looking at are the effect it will have on the industry as a whole and on Texas economy in particular.

While everyone has their own view on such things, ranging from the "Sky Is Falling" all the way to "CWD Is just A Bunch Of Meaningless ", I prefer to take an open minded stance of looking at the differences in how the animals subject to contracting disease are managed from one state to the next.

As everyone knows or should know, goverments and their agencies, State or Federal, do not always respond to situations in reasonable manners.

With Texas being basically totally privately owned land, I am concerned about what will happen if the disease is more serious than some believe and does start affecting deer statewide. Landowners will not be able to lease their properties, and due to the manner many lease contracts are written, those landowners may have to or will have to refund the $$$$ they have already received for the leases.

Because deer hunting or what is considered deer hunting here in Texas, is tied to the concept of supplemental feeding/baiting, if the practice is outlawed due to the posslble sprerad of the disease, that is going to affect feed stores/convinience stores/grocery stores in the more rural areas that depend on a fair amount of their annual income on the sale of deer corn and protien pellets.

I do not believe that I am out of line saying that in each state where CWD has been found in the wild deer/elk/moose, for the initial few years the economy of the states and the rural areas where most if not all of the hunting occured was and may still be being impacted and not at the same level it was at Pre-CWD.

In Texas, the potential for hurting the states economy and hurting it really bad if CWD spreads and both the goverment and the Public over re-act.

The potential for having a devestating die off of the deer herd in Texas is also a point of concern due to the way the herd has been managed for so many years.

You will excuse me and other Texans if we have a concerned attitude about the possible effects this could have on our state.

The human variant of CWD is Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease. The diseases are similiar but not exactly the same. There are no known instances of a human contacting CWD or C-J diesease from eating meat from an infected deer. But, if you read the information from animal rights orgainzations such as PETA or HSUS you'd think people are dropping like flies from infected meat. The AR groups are using such misinformation to discredit wild meat donation programs like "Hunters for the Hungry."

Sick bastards, aren't they?

quote:

Last I remember, no one has ever caught it from deer. Is that still true or not?

I have not seen anything saying that there has been a confirmed case in a human.

But as was seen in the other states when CWD was first recognised, lots of folks are not going to want to take the chance of being the first one.

I am trying to be optomistic, and my main concern is about the effects on the economy, especially on the rural areas. My secondary concern is the possiblity of a massive die off state wide of the deer herd.

Folks, I have been watching the reactions to the discovery of CWD in every state it has been found in from Day 1 in Colorado. There has been a knee-jerk almost irrational re-action by both the public and the goverment agencies.

It is the knee jerk re-actions that cause me some concern.

CHC---Again you have hit the nail on the head as far as what stuff like this can do to the economy. The northeast part of Michigan lost a lot of small Ma & Pa places that sold bait when it was outlawed so as not to congregate animals, as well as lots of small motels and food establishments that relied on the hunting season to make their money and survive another year. I think there is probably a middle ground between the BS flag and saying the sky is falling when these types of situations crop up. So far I don't think CWD, or TB for that matter, have taken that many animals over the years. The one I think we need to worry about is blue tongue (EHD) spread by midge bites that can wipe out almost entire populations, especially whitetails, in a matter of a few weeks.It is probably the deadliest of anything that can affect deer herds and even though it is well know how it is spread, there is really nothing that can be done about it other than hoping a good early frost kills the insects responsible for spreading the disease.

CHC: I have studied as much information as I kind find on CWD. Took me awhile to develop my thoughts on CWD.I am aware of Fort Collins. This was the first time CWD was discovered does not mean that it started there. As for your concern of the disease rapidly spreading it has not happened. There are some infected areas that have expanded slightly. But the vast majority of the cases being found are in pockets hundreds of miles from each other. Explain that when CWD is supposed to be passed on contact between animals??? I just want the truth behind CWD. All the doom and gloom bullshit the DNR has said has not come to pass. In Wisconsin it was going to just run wild it was going to be the end of deer hunting. It has not. CWD was confided to a small area until recently. A deer was found with CWD a few hundred miles from the infected zone through random testing. Yet large scale testing along the border of the known infected zone has not turned up infected deer??? Does not add up to me. If CWD was this terrible plague won't it just begin a rapid march and the infected zones just keep getting larger. Instead in Wisconsin as well as across the nation the disease is randomly popping up. Only plausible explanation to me is CWD is occurring and has been occurring at some level most everywhere for generations and only now through widescale testing is it being found.

a naturally occuring disease?? HORSESHITT.....

if anyone studied the origins of CWD it is a no brainer that the State of Colorado set the stage for the inception of CWD at it's Foothills Research Station at Fort Collins Co.

The person that first recognized CWD for what it was is Dr. Beth Williams, who was one of the grad students involved in the studies at Fort Collins in the early 60's. They placed mule deer in pens that had held Scrappie infected sheep. Scrappie is a very closely related disease to CWD and is the father of Mad Cow Disease.


Mule deer inside the research facility eventually showed signs of illness, but "unneeded/extra " deer had been shipped to two zoos, several other research facilities, and some private fenced areas ACROSS SEVERAL STATES. Other deer were released into the wild in areas near to Ft Collins.

Beth Williams, on CWD, said she was afraid that they(the research facility) had invented a new disease...CWD. I'll bet any money she knew more about CWD than any other 50 people. I'll take her word on where it came from.....

In the early years one could trace any outbreak of CWD across the country straight back to Ft COllins. And there are no outbreaks even now that have no trace back to infected deer in high fences. Even the case in New Mexico that was the flagship for the "it's a natural occuring disease " crowd.

It isn't natural occuring. It came from Ft Collins. Period. Any other explanation is blowing smoke.....

troy

DTala stated:"a naturally occuring disease?? HORSESHITT.....
if anyone studied the origins of CWD it is a no brainer that the State of Colorado set the stage for the inception of CWD at it's Foothills Research Station at Fort Collins Co."

To that I will respond with a big BS because your hypothesis is completely debunked by Ms. Williams. You might want to read this short segment from a lengthy disertation presented in 2002 by Dr. Williams herself, and her husband, Dr. Tom Thorne paying particular attention to the second paragraph (*). It sorts of debunks your theory that the disease started with their work at Fort Collins and everything being found can be traced back there!

CHRONIC WASTING DISEASE: IMPLICATIONS AND CHALLENGES FOR WILDLIFE MANAGERS

Excerpted and modified from a paper presented at the 67th North American Wildlife and Natural Resources Conference, April 2002. By Elizabeth S. Williams, Michael W. Miller and E. Tom Thorne. Original paper may be accessed through the Bibliography.

History of Chronic Wasting Disease
Chronic wasting disease (CWD) has been known as a clinical syndrome of mule deer (Odocoileus hemionus) for more than 30 years; modeling suggests the disease may have been present in free-ranging populations of mule deer for more than 40 years. Only four species of the family Cervidae are known to be naturally susceptible to CWD: mule deer, white-tailed deer (Odocoileus virginianus), Shiras moose (Alces alces shirasi), and Rocky Mountain elk (Cervus elaphus nelsoni), though it is very likely that other subspecies of C. elaphus are susceptible to CWD. Susceptibility of other cervids to CWD is not known. Cattle appear to be resistant to natural infection; to date, only three of 13 cattle have become infected with the CWD agent following experimental intracerebral inoculation, although this and other experimental studies begun in 1997 are not yet completed. Susceptibility to the CWD agent has been documented in sheep through intracerebral inoculation, but no studies have been conducted to show that CWD can be transmitted to sheep through oral exposure or other vectors (Williams 2005).
***The origin of CWD is not known and it may never be possible to definitively determine how or when CWD arose. Though of academic interest, determining the origin is probably not very important from a management perspective; nonetheless, speculation continues. Scrapie, a TSE of domestic sheep, has been recognized in the United States since 1947, and it is possible that CWD was derived from scrapie. Arguments can be made both for and against this hypothesis. It is possible, though never proven, that deer came into contact with scrapie agent either on shared pastures or in captivity somewhere along the front range of the Rocky Mountains, where high levels of sheep grazing occurred in the early 1900s. In addition, in vitro models suggest there is less of a species barrier to interspecies TSE transmission between deer, elk, and sheep than between these cervids and either cattle or humans. However, CWD has never been identified in other areas of North America or other parts of the world where cervids and domestic sheep with scrapie must have co-mingled. Strain typing experiments determined that CWD is not like known scrapie strains, though direct comparisons with North American scrapie strains has not been conducted. Experimental transmission of CWD to a domestic goat by intracerebral inoculation had a prolonged incubation; shorter incubation would be expected with scrapie strains in goats. Experimental scrapie in cattle and lesions of CWD in cattle are quite different

for the record I've read that and most of the other reports on CWD.

"modeling suggests"

"the origin of CWD ois not known"

"speculation continues"

"or in captivity SOMEWHERE on the front range" WTH, how bout Ft Collins ON THE FRONT RANGE?...

do you really think this paper proves that CWD is a naturally occuring disease. Bunch of double speak, smoke and mirrors. There is absolutely nothing of any substance in that paper as far as you quoted.

In an earlier paper I read in 1970s Beth Williams stated that she feared that they set the stage for the mule deer to become infected from the scrappie infected sheep, forming CWD.

Keep drinking that koolade....

Okay Mr. Expert! I produced the paper written by Ms. Williams, who you stated was the person you got your information from, and it does not go along with what you stated. I find it rather ironic that I have produced a paper by the person you stated you got your information from and now you say the paper I produced that was written by Ms. Williams has nothing of substance in it, LOL! Produce your documentation that you say you read where she stated differently and we'll discuss it further. In the meantime, I'll go by what I find and read what was actually written by the Doctor herself and not what you say she said with no documentation of such! Here is another link right off the Wyoming G&F website regarding CWD and the fact that their Sybille research facility traded animals with the Fort Collins site, but there is nothing to show that any animals from either site went anywhere else or were introduced into the wild. Further, Dr. Williams did not identify the prion causing the disease until 1978 when she and her husband were recognized as renowned scientists doing research for the G&F. I'm sure you're aware they were killed in a car accident a few years ago and have a game area named in their honor.


http://wgfd.wyo.gov/Web2011/WILDLIFE-1000290.aspx

Okay folks, let's keep focused on one thing here.

Everyone has their opinion and I appreciate everyone expressing their opinion.

Everyone Please keep in mind, MY CONCERN deals strictly with the economic impact this will have on Texas, PERIOD.

Whether the disease spreads rapidly or not, is not my concern, it is the intial effects this news will have on the industry in Texas that concerns me.

I appreciate everyone's input, but, the bottom line is NONE of us knows for certain what is going to happen. If ANY of you can prove to me that erring on the side of caution is wrong, Please do so!

CHC---I fully understand what you are saying regarding the extensive economic damage that might occur and agree with you. However, I'm interested in what you actually mean or what you would consider to be erring on the side of caution? Might you expand on that please!

Dang, this thread sure disappeared and got real quiet when I asked the gentleman for a little evidence to back himself up like I did on my side, LOL!

CHC---In case you missed this the other day, could you please expand on what you feel should be done now that CWD has been found in Texas. I really don't understand what you mean when you mentioned that they should err on the side of caution. That, to me, could mean that it should be kept under wraps and as quiet as possible so as not to cause any huge, unwanted, or unnecessary repercussions. What do you think the next steps, if any, should be now that these findings have been announced to the public?

topgun, I quit when I realized that you have no idea what you are talking about concerning the origins of CWD and I have no desire to argue with you about it. The "evidence" you posted was laughable as it was no evidence.

the OP asked us to quit, so I did. It's his thread.

As long as what someone has to add gets more information on the gtable that is great. As with any other issue, there are many cponflicting ideas/thoughts and everyone views the situation differently whether from actual experience or hearsay "evidence" from others.

Because the deer herd in much of Texas is artificially high, because supplemental feeding/baiting is a widely accepyted practice, IMO, if the disease is even half as bad as it is built up to be the numbers of animals that could/will die from it is staggering.

The knee-jerk reactions of govermental agencies and hunters combined can have far reaching adverse effects upon the economy of many small towns across the state.

Input from anyone with actual experience from areas that have already had to deal with the CWD issue is welcome and apprerciated. Input just to try to gain some one-upsmanship over another person is not called for.

Whether CWD is that big a threat or not in Texas remains to be seen all I am looking for, fotr myself and Robert are options to work thru the situation.

Thanks for everyone's input, but Please try to stick with actual/first hand experience/knowledge. Hearsay evidence and suppisitions help no one.

Seems like a difficult State to proceed with an organized comprehensive plan, assuming Texas eventually comes up with one. With artificially high deer numbers, many semi domesticated feeding systems that concentrate deer, and a disease that appears transferable from deer to deer...well maybe just taking the approach of saying its only been found in .0000000009% of Texas deer is the way to go.

It is going to be an interesting next few months.

quote:

Posts: 285 | Registered: 16 March 2011 IP

Ignored post by Topgun 30-06 posted 13 July 2012 23:09Show Post

DTala
one of us
Posted 13 July 2012 23:25Hide Post
topgun, I quit when I realized that you have no idea what you are talking about concerning the origins of CWD and I have no desire to argue with you about it. The "evidence" you posted was laughable as it was no evidence.

the OP asked us to quit, so I did. It's his thread.

That's a pretty lame one when you talk about a renowned scientist saying something to back yourself up and yet you can't show it, but say she said it. Then when I post a dissertation by the same scientist that completely disputes what you have stated, you come back with "laughable". Her exact statement in her 2002 dissertation paper was: "The origin of CWD is not known and it may never be possible to definitively determine how or when CWD arose." So you are what is laughable and when confronted you bow out saying it's because the OP said to---to that I say bull cookies! Anyway, I asked CHC a question and brought the thread back up because he got involved in something else and I figured he missed it and wanted him to respond to my previous question, so here we go again.

CHC---So do you think Texas should just continue to try and monitor out in the western part of the state by doing checks of hunter killed game or do you think they should try to take animals from various parts of the state out that way to do more of a thorough, immediate study of the situation? It is a tough situation, just as another member stated, when almost all of the state is private land and I don't know what I would suggest they do to be very honest with you. Looking at the economic side of it like you are it would seem like maybe they should step up their testing in order to hopefully give some positive comments that it is not prevalent. It would seem to me that maybe doing that would calm the situation more than not doing anything the way people are prone to jump to conclusions nowadays and might create a false alarm and exacerbate a situation that may not be as bad as some might make it out to be. Thanks for any other thoughts you might have on this!