Game Ranches here in the US VS overseas.

I just got the latest issue (Spring 2011) of the Black Powder Cartridge News. There's an article about hunting the Asian Buffalo in Tennessee with a 50-140 Sharps with a 750gr cast bullet and black powder.
I understand the proper way to hunt them is go to OZ or Asia, but if that is not in the finances, how do you rate it as an ethical hunt?
Size of enclosure, degree of danger, etc?

This guy sounded like it was a rather sticky situation with these babies. Not horns like the standard WB, but curved in a half circle like a Cape or the ones Juan Pozzie hunts in SA.

Rich

It boils down to the individual hunters concept of ethics and Fair Chase.

From there it does not make a lot of difference on the acreage hunted or the species.

Some of us want to hunt and kill stuff in an actual wild setting where a critter stands a chance of getting away.

For the exotics, especially on many of the high fence places, the people working there know just exactly where the animals normally hang out, and they are going to take the client to it and that person is going to shoot it.

Is it Fair Chase, by the strictest definition of the term, No.

If for no other reason, it is an animal that is in an environment where it is not supposed to be.

It all boils down to the "Hunters" personal concepts of what is and is not hunting.

Same as shooting deer in Texas. Some people have no problem with setting in a box blind and popping the first shootable buck that walks out.

Is that hunting or just shooting?

As someone involved in an operation that sells such "hunts", I myself feel that it is just shooting, but our clients feel that it is hunting, I am not going to disillusion them.

Personal Choice/Personal Preference, some folks enjoy it and that is great. Some folks are totally put off by the idea, and that is great for them.

Do we really need to set up ethical barriers on such things.

SCI recognises animals shot behind High Fences, B&C does not, neither does P&Y.

I have seriously thought about going on one of the water buffalo hunts, but two major issues keep me back.

1. It is not a Cape.
2. It is not Lake Karibi or somewhere else in Africa.

In reality, I could do the water buffalo hunt, not have to obtain a passport, and get to take the meat and trophy home, but I kjust ain't been able to convince myself that it is something I would be comfortable doing.

Isn't the Asian buffalo the same as what is called a water buffalo?? Perhaps a feral version of what Fong Lee uses to plow his rice paddies with? Long, swept back horns without a boss likes on the Cape Buffalo.
I'm gonna guess that if the vendor doesn't tell you how much land he has under fence, his operation is pretty small.

In his day my Grandpa Gus was an adventurous, well traveled sportsman. Gus especially loved bird hunting and had many properties available to him over the years that allowed a "fair chase," for wild birds in the finest sense.

In his later life Gus didn't find himself able to roam as far and wide as he used to so he contented himself with hunting planted and exotic upland game on a pheasant club. As a little boy I "hunted" with him several times, enjoyed it very much and even now that I'm older and not as interested in that kind of "sport" I'd would never show the temerity to question his definition of "hunting farm pheasants removed from the pen and stuffed into the weeds not two hours before we entered the designated and fenced field. It was what he was capable of, he enjoyed it, businessmen profited from it and game animals or the intended target was utilized as per its design.

I believe there is a similarity that can be seen between the buffalo hunt in question and Gus's pheasant club. For some sportsmen the buffalo hunt in the US may be all their capable of or merely all their capable of this year.

Excellent post.

quote:

If for no other reason, it is an animal that is in an environment where it is not supposed to be.

Gee I guess all the red stag in SA and NZ are not fair chase?

Some folks just cant physically do a demanding hunt. I have a dear friend that has hunted farm pheasants, to be able to hunt over dogs on ground he can walk on. He doesnt claim it the same, but he said he's not the same as he used to be either!!

quote:

If for no other reason, it is an animal that is in an environment where it is not supposed to be.

Gee I guess all the red stag in SA and NZ are not fair chase?

You make it sound like all the reds in NZ are behind a fence.

The vast, vast majority aren't- it's just that the travelling hunter usually prefers the tame version because their easier and their antlers are much bigger.

Make no mistake in the distinction between a real wild NZ red and one of those farm bred pets.

Cheers,
Sam Wise

quote:

Originally posted by Sam Wise:

quote:

If for no other reason, it is an animal that is in an environment where it is not supposed to be.

Gee I guess all the red stag in SA and NZ are not fair chase?

You make it sound like all the reds in NZ are behind a fence.

The vast, vast majority aren't- it's just that the travelling hunter usually prefers the tame version because their easier and their antlers are much bigger.

Make no mistake in the distinction between a real wild NZ red and one of those farm bred pets.

Cheers,
Sam Wise

I believe Blacktailer was referring to the fact that Red Stag are "non-native" species in both New Zealand and South America. They are originally from Europe, therefore making them "exotic species" to the other regions. It was a slight poke at crazyhorse's comment about an animal "being in an environment where it is not supposed to be".

Personally, I believe each person has to determine his/her definition of "fair chase" and be comfortable with it. Who gives a rat's ass what "Hunter Bob" on AR thinks about it?

quote:

I believe Blacktailer was referring to the fact that Red Stag are "non-native" species in both New Zealand and South America. They are originally from Europe, therefore making them "exotic species" to the other regions. It was a slight poke at crazyhorse's comment about an animal "being in an environment where it is not supposed to be".

Quite right.
I should have read it better.
Cheers

quote:

Originally posted by Blacktailer:

quote:

If for no other reason, it is an animal that is in an environment where it is not supposed to be.

Gee I guess all the red stag in SA and NZ are not fair chase?

You could even go a step further and ask about pheasants in the U.S. too!

Game ranches may seem bad news and/or unsportsmen like, but they are the future of hunting and maybe the savior of our wildlife. We should ALL support game ranches in this country and elsewhere. See below regarding a new DVD produced by Peter Flack from South Africa.

DVD
Produced by Peter Flack NEW!
"I am standing here among the fynbos at the foot of Africa, the Cape of Storms. The first Europeans to settle in Southern Africa landed a few kilometres away in Table Bay in 1652, in three small ships under the leadership of Jan van Riebeeck.

Their arrival ultimately led to the greatest destruction of game that this continent has ever known. Over the next 300 years, game animals in what was to become the Republic of South Africa, were reduced to barely half a million animals. And then, over the following 50 years or so, their numbers recovered to the nearly 19 million. Why did this happen? How did this happen? And what does the future hold? This is our story…."

Peter Flack

It happened in large part because of financially viable game ranching and folks like us who are willing to pay the trophy fees. Otherwise these animals and their habitat would not exist.

Regards, AIU

I have no issue with folks who want to hunt game ranches for exotics, but for me half the fun is going to far away places and meeting folks of a different culture.

I'm going to ask a question that may sound ignorant but what the hell. I've been told my more than a few people that most hunting in Africa or trophy Red Stag in NZ are under high fence. People come back and post pictures of their amazing hunts but I never hear a high fenced referenced. I've never been hunting in Africa or NZ. How common are high fence ranches there?

Scott,

I'm no super expert on African or New Zealand hunting, but I've been to South Africa and have a trip to return in 2013 to Tanzania. Moreover, I'll be hunting New Zealand next March.

Both countries are, obviously, foreign to us and have different histories and cultures regarding wild game and hunting. IMO they should be judged within their unique contexts, and not necessarily against our values.

That said, most good sports hunting in both countries is on private land, which is fenced. They are fenced, not to prevent escape of the animals from the hunters, but to keep their game (or their investment) safe - remember, the landowners in these countries own the wildlife on their property. If their investment leaves or is destroyed or stolen by pouchers, then their business is in jeopardy.

In these countries it has become profitable for land owners to give the land back to the wildlife, and this profit has allowed wildlife to comeback, and even expand beyond previous ranges, as Peter Flack points out in his DVD.

To support this cause (or industry), we should all schedule a hunt on these game ranches in South Africa and New Zealand. Other African countries are developing game ranches, and many of these countries are in proximity to South Africa. The more profitable this business is the wildlife there will be!!

Other countries, like Tanzania, hunt "free-ranging" game in large concessions but this wildlife also may migrate to and from protective national parks. This game is also in a sense "protected" by large concession fees and trophy fees paid to the country. But, in this system, countries like Tanzania, seem to have more pouchers.

quote:

I'm going to ask a question that may sound ignorant but what the hell. I've been told my more than a few people that most hunting in Africa or trophy Red Stag in NZ are under high fence. People come back and post pictures of their amazing hunts but I never hear a high fenced referenced. I've never been hunting in Africa or NZ. How common are high fence ranches there?

Regards,

bwana

Hi Scott,

Most of the hutning done in NZ is on public land with no high fences for hundreds of miles. However, it takes a lot of time to locate the animals and a lot of sweat to get into the valleys which produce.

This is the way Kiwi's hunt and it's not suitable for the travelling hunter who may only be in the country for a matter of a week or two.

Most travelling hunters hunt behind the fence from what I can see and I don't begrudge them that. It's just not practical to spend a week or more in the back country with no guarantee of an animal when they've travelled so far.

As with anything the fair chase question is relative. If you see a picture of a guy with a stag that looks like it can barely hold it's head up for its antlers, its probably a farm bred stag that answers to a name. I actually don't have a problem with this sort of thing in any way and it's great for the NZ economy.... I just don't think it should be called hunting. It's more akin to the collection of a trophy rather than hunting.

If you decide to hunt NZ you'll be presented with a choice of free range or ranch hunt. The ranch 'hunt' will be easier and you'll shoot a bigger trophy. The free range option will be harder and you may not shoot anything. If you do you'll know you've earned it though.

Cheers,
Sam Wise

Thanks guys. It helps put things in perspective. I guess the size of the property is what tends to be objectionable for high fence ranches here in the states...a few hundred acres vs. several thousand in other countries.

If its something that sounds fun and that you want to do, call it cropping or culling and go for it. The Water buff will be just as big and just as dead.

SSR

I have a friend who has hunted a lot of hogs on small operations here in the east. He enjoys doing it. Goes about twice a year, has since the sixties. He and I have spoken often about it. He has no interest in hunting Africa or any other exotic place. He's taken a number of friends along, some had a blast, some didn't enjoy it at all.
I suspect the amount of fun and satisfaction is directly related to the attitude a person takes along. It's been that way for me when I shot planted birds on preserves. If I went to have a good time, I did; if I had a burr up my butt, it was no fun. To me, ethics are like tastes in companions, some like 'em thin, some like 'em big, some just don't like 'em at all.
You often find what you're looking for.
Bfly

quote:

I suspect the amount of fun and satisfaction is directly related to the attitude a person takes along.

excellent way to think of it.

I hunted on a fenced ranch in Tennessee, which is 12,000 acres and I hunted on the Debeers Estate in SA which was 400,000 acres and I would have to say I enjoyed both hunts. Both hunts using a handgun and both were challenging. The first time I hunted on the Tennessee ranch I passed up a few easy shots on a few large russian hogs the first day and was sweating bullets the last day of a three day hunt because I could not find a hog to shoot...they were there alright...plenty of them...but I walked/glassed my ass off finding one to take. The last afternoon I finally had a chance to whack one. This was harder and more challenging than hunting on the 400,000 acre DeBeers Estate. It all depends on what you want and where you go. The first time I hunted a game ranch was here in Pa on a 200 acre spread...and I did not like it at all.

I think "fair chase" is relative. Relative to ones physical condition for example. When I was young, dumb and ful of cum I could hike, climb ro do the wilderness on foot bit with the best of them and did it all the time. However, sometimes, father Time does a number on a person. I'm going into my mid 70s soon, be 73 come next August and I still love to hunt as best I can. But I am no longer physically able to do what hunting snobs call "fair chase". I have to be realistic about and use whatever methods still allow me to take game. Where I used to climb up big assed mountains in search of big bucks, I now hunt the culls that don't go as high. I've done a few land owner hunts and find them satifying. After all, a 600,000 acre ranch like Vermejo Park isn't really a fenced operation nor was the 250,000 acre ranch where I did an antelope hunt in New Mexico.
A comment was made about sitting in a box blind and waiting for a deer. What's the difference if you're sitting behind some brush along a game trail. Same thing but just a man made blind rather than something provided by nature.
Do I wish I could still run up a ountain,take my game and drag it back out. Hell yes! A bad hip and knee says No so i do what it takes to get my game. at least I can get out rather than stay homeand mope.
Paul B.