A friend just bought a drilling in
16x16x9.3-57R. He tried to chamber an empty case and it wouldn't go in far enough to close the action. He then FL resized it in the die. It would go in enough that you could almost close the action, but still stuck out a little. We took the barrels off and you could seat the case head backwards in the chamber, so the rim thickness isn't the problem. After a FL resize, the shoulder should be correct. The only thing I can think of is that the OAL length of the case is too long. Does anyone know the case length for this cartrage? Is any load data available?
Thanks, ND

The bottlenecked 9x57R was quite popular.
But I do not think that a bottlenecked 9.3x57R ever existed - or it was very rare.
Could it be that this is a 9.3x57R/360 with the conical case?

Fuhrmann

The 9.3X57R was a black powder cartridge from the 1890 era! The 9.3X72R, 9.3X48R, 9.3X57R, 9.3X70R, 9.3X80R, and the 9.3X82R are all streight cassed cartridges, not bottle necked, with the only real difference between them being the length of the case!

I doubt you will find dies for these cartridges, unless they are specialy made! If you friend is useing 9.3X57 Mauser dies, they will not work because that round is a bottle necked cartridge. The cases will most likely have to be made from 9.3X72 cases shortened, and the dies for that cartridge can be shortened as well but will not be perfect. Also with this gun being chambered for a black powder cartridge in the rifle barrel the shot barrels will certainly be black powder as well, and will be the short 16 ga ! This gun needs to have chamber casts made, and all loading be done very causiously!

Check page 369 in Cartridges of the world 8th edition!

Hope this helps!

I saw the gun and cartridge Sunday, but am not familiar with it at all. The cartridge is rimmed and has a slight bottleneck...kind of like a .375 H&H does. He had already resized it before I arrived and I didn't see the die, so I can't comment on that. He purchased the gun, dies, and brass from Champlin Arms, so I assume George and JJ gave him the correct stuff. I told him to ask them, but I thought I might be able to find the answer here. He said the gun was made in the 20's-30's?
Good information on the BP 16 guage Mac. I'm sure that he hasn't thought of that.
Thanks, ND

Good advice from MacD37!

There is no simple answer.
When loading for these old rifles, one has to check and think a lot.

To my knowledge, there is no 9.3x57 R (rimmed)with a bottleneck case - even a slight bottleneck. There is a rimless 9.3x57 Mauser, but this has no rimmed brother.

The first thing to do is to slug the bore.
Then see what the proof marks tell.

The most probable options are:
9x57 R, rim diameter ca. 13.40 mm, base diam. ca. 11.96 mm, slight bottleneck, but groove diameter ca. 9.06 mm!! This is a Mauser cartridge, always loaded with nitro powder.
Or 9.3x57 R / 360, rim diam. ca. 12.35 mm, base diam. ca. 10.91 mm, tapered or conical case.
Relading is tricky, because there were several slightly different case shapes, and also different bore diameters. Originally a BP cartridges, but mild nitro loads also existed.
Very similar to the British .360 2 1/4 Express, but case shape is different.
I do load for the 9.3x57R/360, using shortened 9.3x72R cases. Tried an RCBS sizing die first, this did not size the case sufficiently.
Finally had a sizing die custom-made by the german company Triebel.

Fuhrmann

Fuhrmann and Mac have both given good advice. This is sort of a classic "Old German Gun" problem. Basically a chamber cast is the only way to really find out what's going on, though you can make a couple of quick measurements that will give you good clues.

The base diameters given by Fuhrmann are the best place to start. If the breech end of the chamber (not the rim recess) measures near .420" it will be chambered for one of the 9,3 straight case cartridges listed by Mac above.

If the diameter is more like .460-.470" it will be chambered for one of the Mauser-based rounds, most likely the 9x57R.

Several other points come to mind: one is that the straight cased 9,3x57R, very closely related to the earlier British .360 2-1/4" BP Express, had lots of variation in chambers and modern 'standard' dies for that round may or may not work. The most common brass available for this round is Bertram .360 2-1/4" and it has its own dimensional issues, often being slightly too large at the head to chamber. Also, the usual dies for either the .360 or the 9,3x57R will leave a very slight bottleneck with the full length size die which can deceive you into thinking the round is necked when in fact the chamber is not.

As to the Mauser-based rounds, Dixon, in the first volume of his two-volume "European Sporting Cartridges" pretty firmly stated that there had never been a rimmed version of the quite popular 9,3x57 rimless round. In the second volume he actually reports that there _might_ have been one, but it would be exceedingly rare, maybe even unique, to find a rifle chambered for it.

One other thing to mention is that with these older guns (particularly German!) even good dealers can be mistaken about their chamberings - personal experience speaking here. Post a picture of the proof marks and do some measurements and post back, we all like solving mysteries!

Gentlemen,
Thank you!!! I will copy this information to an e-mail and send to him. I will try to get pistures of the proof marks and post here in the next few days.
Thanks, ND

I got an e-mail from my friend (Mike) today. He was using Mauser dies, thus the bottleneck. JJ at Champlins is going to do a chamber cast for him and Hornady said thay will make the custom dies for $200 and several month's wait.
Many thanks to all for the input. Mike was so excited when I would forward your posts...he wants to know "how I can find such knowledgable people so fast". Guess I will have to show him this site. He is a most impressive man: 20-yrs US Navy / Vietnam Veteran / Owns a business teaching "first response" to terrorist attacks...teaches governments all over the world. Has an extensive gun collection and can use a 1911 as well as any man I've seen. He will love it here.
Thanks again, Dave

Dave,

custom dies will be the best way to go, but expensive.
I started out with a 3 die set from RCBS, P/N 55010.
2 problems with these:
sizing die did not fit exactly, impossible to chamber shortened 9.3x72R cases
The expander diameter was a bit too small to allow easy and straight seating of lead bullets.

Further I had to use an outside neck reamer, to turn off excess brass at the case necks.

Fuhrmann

I also recommend slugging the bore, unless JJ does a chamber cast that includes the throat and bore.

I had a 9x57R drilling, regular and double rifle variety, and loaded the round for many years. The former owners shot standard .358 bullets but the bores (all three) were clearly .356. I doubt they had problems but I didn't want to risk it and bought Hawk .356 bullets.

I don't know if there are slight variations in 9.3 caliber, but I'd want to know if I owned the gun.