When I am on egun.de I get a kick out of how much cheaper BBFs, drillings, and double rifles are in Europe not to mention single shots.

Does anyone ever move those Krieghoff side lock drillings for $17,000 in the States or Sauer 3000's from the 1970's for $6500?

Crazy how most of the $6500 guns in America are $1800 guns in Germany.

The Cabelas in Maine had a lot of drillings and BBFs when I lived there in 2008. None of them moved at the prices they were going for. LL Bean had a damn near new Krieghoff Plus drilling in 30-06 for $3500 and it was gone the next day, I thought that was a great price. But most guys would have put that gun at $8500 and sat on it for 5 years.

Am I wrong in my thinking?

To a great extent,yes you are wrong. I bust a gut looking at what an average American Savage rifle sells for in Germany!

It works both ways. Have you ever gone through all the shipping and export/import expense and hoops and hurdles to get one of those $1,800.00 drillings from Germany to the USA and have it properly stamped with your import business name, then Market is until it sells, while your money is tied up for 4-8 months?

Try to buy that Savage or Remington or Smith & Wesson over there for what we pay here...

You are right about the crazy prices some ask for guns they actually know little or nothing about all too often. I read some of the descriptions and read ignorance of combination guns all through them. Because they've never seen one like it before, it is "rare" or a "custom" BBF they call a cape gun or drilling.

No,

But I have imported about 28 guns on a military BATF import permit from 4 different countries.

I am not wrong, the difficulty in getting guns in has lead people to beleive that a lot of the crap imported is worth $7500 when is not.

Most of the $17000 marked Krieghoff side lock drillings are 6000 Euro guns in Germany as second hand guns in the shops. This would not lead to an almost 3 time mark up.

Cabelas and Bass Pro Shops are one of the worst culprits, but the guns don't have easy to read markings either. A lot of the old BBFs and Drillings don't have models on them. Then again Remington doesn't mark anything beyond M700 on their guns most of the time.

I have seen both Bass Pro and Cabelas mismark guns, and then I ask about it and get argued with. Especially when it comes to Blasers and Kreighoffs. Merkels seem to be better docuemented. I guess it is because they have made the same gun for 80 years.

To me 90% of the 1960-1990 made box lock drillings are $2500-3500 guns in America, that's what I'd pay. And $500-1000 less for a BBF. And maybe $4000-5500 for a boxlock small caliber double rifle, and 7500-12000 for a German boxlock large caliber double rifle. If a sidelock was really nice it ought to bring a premium of $2000 to 5000 more. There isn't double mark up in importing a gun, not when you can usually dig one up at a big gunshow for $500-1000 more than Egun.de prices.

Look at the wood stocked Sauer 202's, they started selling in 1999 or 2000 in the States for $1200. Now the importers want $4500 for one, Sauer has changed the stock design, and that will get a few people, but 2nd hand Sauers are on Gunbroker everyday for $1500, and sometimes you can get one for $1000. Sauer prices in Europe are only $350-500 less, so it's not like we are getting hammered, but a M700 has not had a 400% markup in 12 years have they? And I think Steyr-Mannlichers have gone down a bit.

This isn't a nock on anyone trying to make a buck, I just don't see how the market will bear it. Over priced drillings sit on shelves for years, combo guns are worse. In actuallity most of the combo guns im America get a lot of dust on them after $3000. They aren't going to make any money on me, someone who has a solid love of BBFs, Double rifles and drillings, as I won't pay that as I don't want to get stuck with a rifle that isn't worth what I paid either.

Reminds me a lot of the idiot that I met at the Portland gun club in Maine. He was telling me about his Westley Richards rifle and how nice it was. So the entire time I am thinking this guy bought a rifle made by Westley Richards. When I finally got to see it, it was a factory M70 supergrade push feed gun in 375. He bought it "from" Westley Richards before they moved to Bozeman for $1700, but he was exceptionally proud of that. It was at best a $650 gun in anytown in the West.

Some guys like to brag how much they paid for a firearm.

Importing guns commercially is different, and it gets expensive. A person's time and labor is also a factor if the guns are for re-sale. Importers don't work for nothing. They need to make a living. Most who import combo guns and better rifles and shotguns need to key the original cost...double what they paid in Europe...to make dealing in imports worthwhile as a business.

I laugh myself silly when I see what WR sells an ordinary gun for. You're absolutely right about queering the market by these dealers, but they sell snob appeal, and there has always been a market for that among those who have more money than sense. I'm also amused when watching the on line auction sites. I see old loose beater snap action hammer drillings in short 16 gauge and some long obsolete rifle round advertised for a starting bid of $3,000 to $8,000. These guns are worth maybe $400.00 to $1,000.00 all too often. A year later they are 1/2 what they were, then two years later they are 1/4 the original try, and they still have no bids.

What I can and do understand is a dealer buying a good sound drilling, cape gun, or BBF for that $1,800.00 and many months later when it is now here and marked, and all the paperwork has been done and fees paid see them market the gun for $3,000.00 to $3,400.00 if it was worth the original $1,800.00 paid in Germany.

These guns will never move very fast, and that is a crucial factor in retail sales.

Meanwhile, you and I will just laugh at the knuckleheads who pay too much and the ones who ask many times what their klunker is worth.

But every idiot on gunbroker and 99% of the large retail stores are trying to sell that same $1800 drilling for $8500.

quote:

Originally posted by MOA TACTICAL:
But every idiot on gunbroker and 99% of the large retail stores are trying to sell that same $1800 drilling for $8500.

SO, import a few, and make some money! You shouldn't have any problem doing that at all.

DM

I am in Germany several times/yr and there is a huge caveat when you start trying to compare guns on the internet. Really good used guns in Europe are rarely that much less....not if you were to add in the cost of import, brokerage, duty, etc.

Yes, you can buy Sauer drillings in Euro calibers in 80% condition with a scuffed up 6x42 scope for $1000...but a one in top condition with a an 06, 308, 270 barrel, good wood, and an unmarked scope in 1.5-6/42 from a good maker is going to be double that before it leave Europe.

Not all drillings are equal.

quote:

SO, import a few, and make some money! You shouldn't have any problem doing that at all.

If anyone wants to explore, I have an excellent contact in Germany that would like to have a US partner for used long guns. He is well respected, trains for the local police, is a qualified instructor, is a gunsmith and has a Handelslizenz (License to buy and sell). He is presently exporting used top end handguns in bulk to the US. To be clear, I have no interest other than to make an introduction. His English is very good.

quote:

Originally posted by MOA TACTICAL:
But every idiot on gunbroker and 99% of the large retail stores are trying to sell that same $1800 drilling for $8500.

Yep...that key word is "trying".

They got therelves a real colletcotor gun and are gunna make-a'lotta money, cause itsa rair'un.

These old WWII bring-backs are now in the hands of grandsons and nephews who see nothing but money. They see what others are asking and want to be sure they aren't "taken".

Then there are Cabela's, Scheel's and their ilk who have pumped up the prices like the real estate brokers did homes in the late 1990s and early 2000s. They are asking $5,500-$6,500 for Sauer 3000 drillings without scopes or mounts, or for ones with some bastardized mount set up that Joe Shmoe's Gunsmithing cobbled together.

quote:

Originally posted by luv2safari:

quote:

Originally posted by MOA TACTICAL:
But every idiot on gunbroker and 99% of the large retail stores are trying to sell that same $1800 drilling for $8500.

Yep...that key word is "trying".

They got therelves a real colletcotor gun and are gunna make-a'lotta money, cause itsa rair'un.

These old WWII bring-backs are now in the hands of grandsons and nephews who see nothing but money. They see what others are asking and want to be sure they aren't "taken".

Joe Shmoe's Gunsmithing cobbled together.

Nice, about pissed my pants. It is so true!

I was at a gunshow in Washington State about 7 or 8 years ago, and I had a Anschutz 22LR with the full stock, can't remember what 17?? it was. Anyway I there was a guy that had about 3 or 4 of these 1920's dead caliber pre-war hammer drillings and he had $4000-6000 on all of them. At least 2 were hammer guns, and 1 had a broken stock. I doubt if he had ever in fired one in his life.

The part which amazes me is the lack of good sense.

When I buy something, I know how much I have in it, all told. I am tickled to sell it for 25-35% more than I've got in it...really tickled.

But then, because I am willing to do that, I don't have to use borrowed money to buy the next one with, and I don't have to advertize to sell the ones I have.

And I don't have to rent space to store them in until they DO sell.

Ive sold literally many dozens of nice Mausers that way, lots of double and single shot Euro rifles, lots of guns which came out of Africa and England too, and many North American guns as well.

And they sell quickly, because I don't buy things that I don't know what they are or how much I can EASILY sell them for.

Of course I don't make top dollar. So what? I've invested in stocks and bonds, and real estate for years too, and probably never sold at the top or bought at he very bottom of the market. But I've made enough money to have a nice home and always get by, retired when I was 51, and never lost my ass in a "bubble" either.

My guiding rule has always been...when you buy something decide before buying exactly how much you'll be willing to sell for. When the price which buyers are willing to pay gets to that level, sell it. Don't wait for even more gain. Just move it along and put the money from selling it in whatever you use as a bank. don't leave it sitting there unsold as a hypothetical, un-realized "paper" profit, hoping for even more lucre.

Give the customer an honest deal on good merchandise, and I think you'll almost always do well.

Try to cut a fat calf every time, and my experience is that a fair amount of the time you'll cut your own throat.

I know lots of folks decry me as being nieve, or stupid, or not a "pro" for doing things that way. But it has worked for me and not given me any ulcers either.

I think watching pushy, greedy people NOT learn is almost as much fun in a perverse way as the true joy of watching bright kids learn easily, with joy in their eyes....or even more fun, watching a slow kid finally grasp a concept important to him or her and literally glow with new pride!

It's the way the world works.