In the interests of another discussion about combination guns - bit thin in the ground, are einstecklaufes worth bothering with. I have 16 over 7x65r and thinking a 22cf liner barrel in the 16 bore, for use on foxes / roe deer. Also would add a bit of weight forward and make it a bit easier to shoot. But two things come to mind - for the odd fox taken when out stalking the 7mm does a pretty good job and the shotgun has accounted for ore than one at close range. And the rear trigger pull is a bit heavy for fine work. I suppose it could be improved, or indeed have a set trigger put in ( but suspect the cost would be high for that). My real question is whether a Bergstutzen a useful combination, or keep it as it is.

I do also have a very accurate 243 heym, which does everything that you would ask of a 22cf.

Does n't any body here use an Einstecklaufe - do they shoot well?

I have two in .22 Hornet for the 12 gauge upper barrels of my Blaser B95 combination rifles. They shoot pretty well, at least the required "minute of fox".

However, they should be properly installed and checked on a more frecuent base than a regular, say .22 Hornet rifle barrel.

Especially in Hornet, on www.egun.de you can sometimes find some good used ones. The trend seems to go towards the larger .22 cf calibers.

Years ago, I had a drilling in 16/70-7x57R with a 222 ESTL in the right scattergun barrel. It was a VVV (von vorne Verstellbar---adjustable at the front)unit that was installed and sighted in to shoot 2 inches high (and just slightly right) of the POI of the larger caliber at 100 meters. It was very accurate and very effective. You will need to re-sight the ESTL when you take out and re-install but it won't be very far off.

My Zimmermann 5.6x50R Einstecklauf is very accurate and also adjustable from the muzzle.

Did have to try quite a number of bullets as I desired a .224" hunting bullet as opposed to those who feel they can get by with a Varmint or Target bullet. The Sierra 55 gr. HPBT GameKing shrank groups to <1" for 5 shots. That'll do fine out to 200 meters for those Continental Roe Deer chest shots which are prefered here. Nice 1" sized exit wound when no bones other than the fragile rib is hit. It flattens Foxes which if shot well don't cling to life too dearly and seem to do the DRT Trick.

I've only ever shot Foxes & Roe Deer with the cartridge so can't speak of other potential targets of opportunity, Crows, Badgers, Cats, Squirrels, Martens, etc.

When doing load testing ended up talking to alot of gunsmiths who claimed 2" was their average and in their opinion good enough for hunting. That was about what I was initially obtaining and well, I disagree: so kept on trying various bullets until I hit the magic combination.

A 7x65R & 5.6x50R would be a super combination for a Bergstutzen IMO.

To me the Hornet is too finicky and doesn't offer the legal requirement here for Roe Deer either, so didn't want a Vermin only cartridge.

I opted for the 5.6x50R because I wanted a rimmed cartridge to match the 9.3x74R in the Drilling's under barrel. Actually, a moot point between the power of the rimless .222 & .223 Remingtons.

I've only ever used a shotgun barrel in a Combo/Drilling twice in many years of hunting (1 Fox & 1 Cat) so I'm seriouly considering putting a 30/30 Winchester Einstecklauf in the left Drlling barrel for a 3-(rifle) Boomer.

I'd observe a professional inserting one to begin with as I'da never used that much force hammering the Einstecklauf into the shotgun barrel. Accordingly, the gunsmith claimed to obtain good accuracy lots of tension is what's required. I don't ever take mine out as even with Muzzle Adjsutments they can be trying (read=lots of ammo) to get aligned again.

Indeed Gerry, a 30/30 insert barrel is a very tempting endeavour. With a proper Spitzer bullet and good pressure, it should kill most roe, fallow, boar and even medium red deer.

Dirk,

Yup, my sentiments exactly; a .30/30 Winchester with a 150 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip would be my inital try. Ought to bridge the gap nicely (but here not so legally for Hochwild) between the .224" & .366" bullets.

Thanks gentlemen. Are the einstecklaufes easily removable or is it fit, adjust and leave in there proposition? There will be times when I want to use the shotgun barrel for use on birds, or loaded with a slug for close range big animals as immediate back up to the 7x65r.

The rimfire inserts; especially the half-length ones can easily be taken out and re-inserted in the field as they adjust and are held in place with a small (@ 1/8") square 3" long key. They do require re-sighting-in, too which is a real PITA as it's accomplished by trial & error (or error & trial).

The centerfire insert barrels require the extractor/ejector be modified which is held in place with a small (torque screw) to the rifle's extractor.

If you desire to carry the appproriate screwdriver, a small brass hammer or a hard metal hammer & an aluminum Push-Rod (fits inside the chamber's rim and has a nipple for inside the bore on the other end not to damage the rifling) then you could conceivably take one in/out in the field to use the shotgun tube. To remove it requires some serious banging on the muzzle end (mine was held in a lead pad covered Vice).

To re-insert it; requires signifcant force and resighting-in.

Mine drops in until @ the last 2" and then requires some smart pushing with the palm of your hand while aligning the Bits & Pieces and at @ 1/2" from fully seated; 5-6 serious strokes with the above noted hammer & punch to reinsert it.

Yeah, I guess you could do this in the field but still the guilt edge accuracy is gone until it's resighted-in with the 7x65R barrel.

From my view point/complexity/ease; I leave mine in all the time. It's really up to you.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerry:
Dirk,

Yup, my sentiments exactly; a .30/30 Winchester with a 150 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip would be my inital try. Ought to bridge the gap nicely (but here not so legally for Hochwild) between the .224" & .366" bullets.

I think that it shouldn't be a problem to get the 30/30 over the legally required 2000 J/100 meters. The 150 grain BT would be also be for me the 1st choice to try. At 30/06 speed it's too destructive for roe so at these lower speeds it might work just fine.

I have several of the Krieghoff "insert" bbls, chambered in 22LR and 22WMR.



Once "properly installed and sighted in" the first time around, they can be easily take out and reinstalled with very little to no change in the sight in.

I've many times carried one in my pack, and slid it in to shoot some grouse or a rabbit for camp meat.

All of mine work perfectly! And have been very handy to have along on hunts.

I used mine to shoot this fox i happened onto,



I really like my RF inserts!

DM

quote:

150 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip would be my inital try. Ought to bridge the gap nicely (but here not so legally for Hochwild)

With a Vo about ~2300fps, you get with the 150grs BT at 100m over 2000Joule.

The short insert barrels for rimfire rounds are allways a stopgab. Yes, they work, at ranges between 50 and 100m. Better is a full lenght insert barrel, for rounds like the .22Hornet or better, for a .222rem or 5,6x50R.
And a interesting combination would be a insert barrel, for Hornadys new .17Hornet.
http://www.hornady.com/store/17-Hornet/

Martin

I have given some thought to getting a 22LR or a 22 Mag barrel for some of my drillings, but...

I just do not see how they would prove useful enough to "take up space" in one of my shotgun barrels.

I shoot a lot of small game for the pot.
I do not like to shoot squirrels in a tree with a rifle, for safety reasons, so I prefer a shotgun.
I have killed squirrels as far as 37 yrds with the shotgun barrels of my drillings, including my 20GA guns.

And since I like to eat small game so much I had rather use a shotgun, as it is always more of a guaranteed kill over even a very accurate 22 LR rifle. Rabbits, dove, quail, grouse, and of course turkeys, are a more sure kill with a shotgun barrel IMHO.
Also I can still use slugs and buckshot. I have taken deer with slugs and buckshot, and the wife and I have taken pigs with slugs.

A shotgun barrel has worked so good for me that I see no reason to change.

DM
Well done of the fox, however I just do not mind using my full calibre rifle barrel on varmints, or buckshot if they are close.

Hey DM,

Scribing a 'witness mark' across both extractors will allow you an almost perfect return to zero.

Don't know if it was a factory idea - but my Sauer & Sohn has one that matches up with the extractor on a Kreighoff Einstecklauf. Results are great.

Rgds

Ian

Ian,

if done/ ie fitted at the factory then it was done there, othervise it was most likely the smith that did the fitting that had the good sense of setting the witness marks.

I have seen many drillings in sweden that have the marks but no spare barrel,

the reason for this was that after 1950, all the instickspipor, the swedish word for it, was recalled by the state and destroyed.

/Chris

quote:

Originally posted by IanF:
Hey DM,

Scribing a 'witness mark' across both extractors will allow you an almost perfect return to zero.

Don't know if it was a factory idea - but my Sauer & Sohn has one that matches up with the extractor on a Kreighoff Einstecklauf. Results are great.

Rgds

Ian

IF the insert bbl. is "properly" fit to the gun, there is a "cut" in the shot bbl. extractor face, so the insert goes into place EXACTLY the same EVERY time.

You can see the little cut in the right bbl. extractor in my old drilling, in this pict.,



It has no effect on how the extractor works in any other way, and makes the insert bbl. work perfectly with that gun.

DM

Thanks for all the coments. Good food for thought.

Here´s a site, sorry, only in German, with a good insert barrel maker.
http://www.einstecklauf.de/Kaliber/KaliberFrame.html

Martin

Thanks Guys,

DM - not seen that particular mod before, well thought out and has to work just fine!

Rgds

Ian

Decent condition Kreighoff insert barrels are available to those who look and are patient. I have either 22mag or 22 LR in my drillings presently and in almost all I have owned...about 200 over 50+ years. I am always trading and "upgrading".

Properly installed, they are spooky accurate. I have mine shoot dead on at 65 yards, using the scopes in claw mounts. The inserts are primarily for the right barrel, also. I did have one drilling that was regulated to throw original Brenneke slugs dead on at 80 meters and had a 22 LR insert made for left barrels on at 50 yards. I loved the gun, so I sold it.

luv2safari...where did you obtain the Krieghoff Einstecklauf and who does the instillation?

I can arrange to supply and install new Kreighoff short inserts for about $450 plus shipping. 22 LR and 22 mag only.

Here is a link to some photos of some unusual inserts I bought recently. One is a 44cm long Krieghoff insert in 22 Mag. The second is a 15 inch long 22 Hornet insert for a 12GA. The third is 22 inches long and is chambered in 9.3X72R for a 12GA gun. The centerfire inserts adjust for point of impact with adjustments at the muzzle. The Hornet uses an eccentric ring while the 9.3 uses four opposing screws. The 9.3 insert also has a provision for a rubber o-ring to help hold it in the shotgun barrel. I have fired it without the o-ring and it shoots fine but would stay in place more securely with the o-ring. Both muzzle pieces are around .729 and the chamber ends are .810 for tight fits.



http://s396.beta.photobucket.c...rrels/Long%20Inserts

I have finally made contact with Zimmermann waffen and I'm considering ordering some inserts from them. I want one in 9.3X74R in the top barrel of my BBF to make a double rifle. They come in standard lengths of 68 or 72 CM or they will cut them to specific lengths for a particular gun. I may order a couple extra in 22 HORNET and .30-30 for 12 gauge barrels and leave them 72 CM so that they can be cut off later. These will be for resale. I have to do a Form 6 to import the inserts, then once they are here I can ship them to anyone with no paperwork. So if anyone wants one to add to my order, I will add them to share in the shipping costs. Here is a link to their list of calibers. http://www.zimmermann-waffen.info/40623.html

The calibers, etc and self explanatory, but if someone can translate the incidental items list at the bottom of the page, that would be helpful. I think they are things like extractor plates, etc.
I think there is an 11% exise tax levied on them by customs.

Allan

In Germany the long ones are still quite popular. Mounting and sighting-in can require some effort. For the long barrels which take the full length an absolute dry and clean barrel is considered by many in the know as mandatory. Obviously if you follow this routine you should from time to time and depending on your circumstances check the barrel for pitting by removing the Einstecklauf.

Was shooting some relaods at my camp this past Sat...and took the drilling with insert along. Its a full length 65cm insert that can be adjusted at the muzzle (VVV).



This is at 80 yds..45gr Rem Core Lokt

quote:

Originally posted by JonP:
Was shooting some relaods at my camp this past Sat...and took the drilling with insert along. Its a full length 65cm insert that can be adjusted at the muzzle (VVV).



This is at 80 yds..45gr Rem Core Lokt

Jon,

That's the only insert I've seen that has proven to be worth the money invested. Most are worthless. Congrats on such as finely made instrument, and since you somewhat know me, I say that in all sincerety.

quote:

That's the only insert I've seen that has proven to be worth the money invested. Most are worthless. Congrats on such as finely made instrument, and since you somewhat know me, I say that in all sincerety.

Surprised you say that because I know you have seen a fair number of Euro guns. I once had a Combination gun with a 222 insert that would print one hole at 50 yds. I think some folks may be under the impression that inserts will shoot MOA at 100/220 yds...not what they are intended for. I would say that are best at 30-75 yds out of a stand on roe deer (in Europe) or predators (fox, coyote, raccoon).

JonP

That insert shoots better than most rifles made FOR the 22 Hornet.

Nice piece of kit...