For some reason there seems to be an abundance (for drillings here that mean n > 2 ) of Sauer 3000s in 12/12/6.5x57R or 16/16/6.5x57R sitting on gun dealers shelves gathering dust.

Although the 6.5x57R is a potent enough round for most Australian game - pigs, goats & most of our deer - it is sublegal for two of our deer species which could be a right PITA for some places, hence a desire for something bigger.

So, is it possible to fit a Keppeler einstecklauf in perhaps .30R Blaser, 8x75RS, or 9.3x74R in a Sauer 3000? or is this gun only capable of withstanding Hornet or 5.6x52R pressures in it's shotgun tubes?

If it is safe, anyone care to speculate what level of accuracy I could expect?

Do you mean the one at the shop that you and I visited the last time you were down this way?
I still think it would make a fine Fallow and Hog Deer gun, but not at the stupid $$$ they want for it.

Not when I can get a brand new D99 for $1000 less, in the cal I want...

However, not the answer you were looking for.
When I can find it, I will email you with the addy of the guy who brings in the Walther stuff, he is the one who got me my 7x57R insert.

I've recently been told of a second 6.5 Sauer north of the border for more realistic money (although given the store in question it wouldn't surprise me that the quote was the price they paid for it, not what they want for it )

Claw mounted & scoped Sauer + einstecklauf might come very close in $$$s to an unscoped new D99

quote:

So, is it possible to fit a Keppeler einstecklauf in perhaps .30R Blaser, 8x75RS, or 9.3x74R in a Sauer 3000? or is this gun only capable of withstanding Hornet or 5.6x52R pressures in it's shotgun tubes?

I am not a qualified gunsmith; however on the Keppeler website (in German) they state that NORMALLY Over/Unders are suitable for insert barrels in their large(r) chamberings (anything over 6x70R) and that side-by-sides (incudes Drillings) are compatable for the smaller chambered insert barrels.

They also mention that consideration for the larger caliber insert barrels may be given to firearms they consider suitably strong. I do not know whether a Sauer 3000 would fit that bill but I would summize an E-mail inquring such to Keppeler may help?

Have fun with your project.

I have a Sauer 3000 in 12x12x30/06.

I really like it, it handles like a great quail gun.

I also have 2 Blaser D99 Duo's.

The D99's are much more rugged IMHO, and they are very accurate. VERY ACCURATE.

For rough duty in the Land Down Under I would prefer the D99.

I would also like to know more about these I guess I'll find there website.

I have always wanted a einstucklauf for my M300 drilling. Although I primarilly want a hornet barrel I would also think that a 9.3x74 would make a great addition also.

They are just never seen over here but I guess there would be no problem just ordering one from Germany. Should have done this when the doller was worth something over there.

I have been told by several people who should know that the Sauer 3000 is not suited for the heavier caliber inserts. I have a 12/30-06 3000 and love the gun. I wanted to get a 9.3X74R insert but was told to forget it...not strong enough.

You would think the 12 ga frame would be plenty strong but I would'nt argue the point because I really dont know.

Well it's back to my main desire being the hornet. I have to think that if I installed a hornet in the right barrel of my 12x12x30-06 I would be ready for anything short of DG.

quote:

Originally posted by luv2safari:
I have been told by several people who should know that the Sauer 3000 is not suited for the heavier caliber inserts. I have a 12/30-06 3000 and love the gun. I wanted to get a 9.3X74R insert but was told to forget it...not strong enough.

I would tend to agree with this as the Sauer 3000 is a light weight frame with a narrow small [what on a double rifle is called ] water table.

Hmm thanks for the info, looks like it's back to the old drawing board - bank

I was told years ago that higher pressure insert barrels are not suitable for the Sauer steel actioned drillings. The recommended max was 222 or 5.6 x 52R (22 Savage Hi Power). The 6 x 70R was not mentioned. I was led to believe that the action was not designed for higher pressure off center in the action. For dural drillings, 22 Hornet was recommended as a safe maximum insert. Most of the larger caliber rifled inserts I have seen have been in 2 barrel Combo guns with Kersten lockups. I agree the D99 is designed for this use and of course is often delivered as a double rifle drilling.

Good luck getting insert barrels out of Germany. German law treats barrels the way the US treats actions. They would have to be formally exported and I think they might even have to be proof tested in the gun in Germany. I'd love to have one in a centerfire but short of taking my drilling to Germany to have one installed, I have stuck to the rimfire inserts.

GBE...

Take a hard look at the Blaser D99 and the D99 Duo's.

They are great Drillings.

Very accurate and rugged...

A bit off subject but I have a combo 12ga over 257r, it is a well made Ferlach gun with dual under lugs and dual cross bolts on top. Does anyone have an opinion about it holding up ok with a 257r insert in the top to make a double rifle ?

Thanks Dale

I went to the Keppeler website as mention above and as also mentioned above the Keppeler site dose make mention of the O/U guns I assume a BBF like yours is not a problem with the larger Einstecklaufs.

I think the problem here would be getting one chambered for a .257. I have heard of a lot of American cartridges comeing out of Ferlach but this is the first time I've heard of this one.

I'm sure for the right price Keppeler will chamber one for you.

Originally posted by Vol717

"Good luck getting insert barrels out of Germany. German law treats barrels the way the US treats actions. They would have to be formally exported and I think they might even have to be proof tested in the gun in Germany. I'd love to have one in a centerfire but short of taking my drilling to Germany to have one installed, I have stuck to the rimfire inserts."


Vol717 I'm not so sure this would be a real problem in that it really is'nt all that hard to import a rifle from Germany for your personal use.

I think the einstecklauf would be even easier I can check with some of my gunmaker buddys in Germany to find out but maybe you have already had some expieriance with this that you can share with us.

Regardles of how the German law works it will come into the US as a non gun and bypass any issues with BATF and worst case on this end it would requier nothing more that some duties to be payed.

I have a 257r reamer, thought I could turn down a barrel blank as light as possible with the chamber area matching the 12ga chamber area.
Then use a nut with offset hole to regulate.

The gun was made for Flaggs I think in the 1950s .

quote:

Posted 09 February 2010 17:23 Hide Post
I have a 257r reamer, thought I could turn down a barrel blank as light as possible with the chamber area matching the 12ga chamber area.
Then use a nut with offset hole to regulate.

The gun was made for Flaggs I think in the 1950s .

If you have the skill sure you can make your own. Will be a lot of work especially the extrackter.

If you want an American gunsmith to do this from scratch I think you would be better off just getting one from the guys who do it all the time. It will be much faster and cheaper and better made in the end.

Well folks, I hate to go against the tide here (usually find myself doing that ), But the only consideration in a good locking drilling should be chamber pressure. It's pretty much a fallacy that pressure can ruin a well built and maintained break open gun designed for modern calibers. Unless the cases and or chamber are very oily. The Sauer that was used for the 9.3X74 Luftwaffe drilling was similar to the 3000 in design. The 7X57 or 6.5X 57 are high pressure calibers by most standards (50K plus). So why wouldn't you be able to fit an einstecklauf to a drilling using a caliber that is @ the same as the rifle caliber??
Think about it. If you have excess headspace in a chamber, what happens? The first thing you notice is the primer backs out @ the distance of the excess headspace. This tells us that the case doesn't actually slam back against the breech, as some people think. It expands against the chamber walls and is held there with that 50K PSI. Therefore, if the insert can handle the chamber pressure, go for it.
That's my experience
Greg

Brayhaven

You are absoloutly right about chamber pressure. What happens in the chamber has nothing to do with the stress on the action.

Although pressure is a factor in creating bolt trust as you say pressure also plays a part in reducing bolt trust by holding the case against the chamber walls.

Actully although the Luftwaffa drilling that was made by Sauer was chambered in 9.3x74 so was the M3000. I think the point being made here is not that the action of the 3000 can't take the 9.3 round but rather will the area of the reciver of the upper two fireing pins take the bolt trust? I think the consideration here is that the upper fireing pins are off center from the locks and will cause stress that over time will or might damage the action.

As N.E.450#2 say's the water table of this action is narrow and that may be the cause for the concern. Really I don't know on this one and I'll take their word for it because it sounds like they have been through this before.

You would think that the upper area on the m3000 would be no differant than a double rifle but keep in mind that the actions for rifles are designed for that specific use and the answer may well be in that water table area.

I have seen other drillings with large cal rifles on the upper part of the reciver. Just a search on this thread will show a .470 doublerifle drillng. I have even seen a double .470 with the under barrel chambered for .375. That was cool but it was'nt built on a M3000 action. It was a Hambrush from Ferlach.

Back to the chamber pressure question. I don't think anyone mentioned it or if they did it would have been a mistake. Many einstecklaufs are built in .22 highpower, .222 rem etc. These cartridges have every bit the pressure that the 9.3x74 has. The factor that comes into play here is bolt trust as I"ve mentiond before.

The higher bolt trust that is created by the 9.3 round is generated by the fact that albiet nearly equal pressure you have much more resistance from the much heavier bullet that wants to push the case back into the reciver. The added resistance from this bullet causes the case to overcome the advantage of the pressure holding the case in place.

As the case of the big bore rifle round pushes back against the fences of the reciver the force on the gun now has the barrels being pushed away from the reciver as long as the bullet is still in the barrel causing wear on the hinge pin.

I am glad that you brought this up. I have been saying this for a long time. If you look at the old British Proof houses they did not measure chamber pressure ether and they did'nt care about it. What the mesured was pressure in copper units that measured the bolt trust of the specific round.

I think you may have missed my point here, or I failed to convey it accurately . There is virtually no "bolt thrust" in most calibers. There can be, if the case is extremely tapered or oily. I've found a little in the 6.5X58R Sauer, (assume because of the extreme full length body taper) especially if the case lube isn't removed after sizing or a little oil is left in the chamber. Look at the action pins & locking mechanisms of some high pressure single shots, chambered for 22-250, 243 etc like T/C's, NEF's etc.
The very straight cases are even less likely to have any thrust or more correctly, breech pressure. I recall PO Ackley making this case. Especially with the "improved" cases. He always offered to fire a 94 winchester with the locking lugs completely removed, after chambering it in 30/30 improved. Because the case expands against the chamber wall and arrests the rearward thrust. Don't know that he ever did it, but he would have if challenged and been in no danger. There are some fallacies that seem to go on & on regarding guns and breech pressure is one of the most tenacious. Of course there can be some, but you can avoid it in most calibers.
Last year I saw some signs of excess headspace right after re-chambering a contender carbine barrel to 222. I was sure I'd chambered it correctly, but the primer was still backing out @ .040. I found that I'd run the sizing die down too far and had set the shoulders back on the new cases. If there had been any "breech pressure" the case would have slammed back against the breech and held the primer in flush. As it was the case remained in place, where the firing pin shoved it up against the shoulder where it stayed during firing, only the primer backed out against the breech face to show the problem. I tried to blow the shoulder forwardon the cases by firing with the muzzle up with no success. I finally had to lube up the cases after loading them and fire them. The slippery lube allowed the case to come back against the breech face and the shoulder to blow out back to where it belonged.

The shooter would still have to be careful (as they should be anyway) to have the ammo & chamber clean. It should also be at reasonaable pressures to keep the primer from "flowing" back around the firing pin.

Einstecklaufs are common in 7X57, 8X57,7X65R 5.6X60R etc. and are in use to make "poor man's double rifles". I've never heard of one causing a problem. I asked a German gunsmith friend about and his experience is the same. I'm planning to build one this year. It will be a 6X47 rimmed version using a shortened & necked up 5.6X50R mag case.
Just my dos centavos,
Greg

Anothing to consider...

On most drillings the rifle barrel is the barrel closest to the main locking mechanism of the gun.

By shooting a rifle cartridge in one of the shotgun barrels the force on the gun is farther from this main locking area.

Also many drillings have lightweight frames to make them handle better.

So while the insert barrel will not blow the gun up, it will come off face quicker.

I looked at a Kreighoff Drilling, that I planned on having an insert barrel installed.

I talked to Dieter Kreighoff, and he advised me that the frame for this drilling was strengthened and designed to take the 9,3 insert barrel, with no problems.

The only problem was the gun was about 3 times the cost of a Sauer 3000, and as my wife had been using her Sauer for several years, and I used to "sneak" it out on occasion, and really liked the way it handled and shot, I just got one of those for me...

Originally posted by Brayhaven

quote:

There is virtually no "bolt thrust" in most calibers

Yes P.O.Ackley dose a great job explaining this in chapter 8 vol 1 of his handbook for shooters and reloaders. I feel his books although antiquated are a must read for any serious shooter.

I agree that in light calibers there is very little bolt thrust and maybe I failed to make my point.

It is with heavy bullets that you start to get bolt thrust. It dose occure and after studying Ackley's work it took me quite awhile to figure out when and where it happens.

As you mentioned Ackley pointed out that tappered cases won't adhere as well to the side of the chamber wall. This was one of the perameters he used while developing the straighter walls of his "improved" line of cartridges. In most cases when he fire formed cases to improve them it was'nt to incease capcity, (Keep in mind he was never a proponent of large volume cartidges and he was the one who coined the phrase "overbore" capacity) He was intending on reducing bolt thrust by reduceing tapper with the reshaping of the improved case.

Since it was mentioned at the begining of this topic and since it is listed as an option with Keppeler I am focusing on the 9.3x74 cartridge. It is a very old desing and is fairly tappered. With the 286 gr. bullets that they fire. I think you will get a greater level of bolt thrust than you would with other comparible cartridges. The cartridges you mention here

"Einstecklaufs are common in 7X57, 8X57,7X65R 5.6X60R etc."

Are good examples of high pressure and light bullet. I also think they will be little cause for concern.

Brayhaven in most ways I think we are on the same page with this. I think the differance in opinion only lies with how much bolt thrust is generated by the larger calibers and even there we both understand that that is a funtion of case desing as much as it is pressure.

I have had conversations on these boards with people who I only wish had your understanding of this. One good example was when I first mentioned that I have a double rifle chambered for .338 Win mag. There were a lot of neigh sayers. One guy pipped up and proclaimed that to be the worst possible choice of calibers possible for a double rifle and it would surly come off face whithen a few rounds because a .338 is too high pressure for a double rifle.

I know that your not surprised that that rifle still locks up like a bank vault after the 14 years I've had it and although the belted rimless case is another issue concerning extraction that has'nt been a problem so far ether.

How dose this sound A 9.3x74 AI. It would actully make a lot of since. I'm sure some would say the straightend case wall would inhibbit extration but I doubt it.

The 9.3x74 case was used to make a wildcat called the .33 poachers pet. I don't remember off hand wether it was a 33 cal like the old Keath cartridge or a .338 but it seems like a really good idea to me.

AK, I think we do agree on much of the post. The phenomenon of breech pressure (as opposed to chamber pressure where the thrust is outward) can occur more easily in heavy calibers with big bullets, and especially in lower pressure calibers. That said, I haven't seen any excess rear thrust in normal body taper calibers like the 06 either. One of my favorite mid range calibers is the 338/06 with no other change change to the case.
I too am a disciple of Ackley's preference for efficient calibers, and more balanced bore to case capacity. Too many people these days suffer from what I call "Keith Syndrome" which is to match the bore size to the hat size & propel the bullet as close to light speed as possible
Though I don't really consider the 338 win mag a small caliber, some do. That is actually one of the best balanced calibers ever designed. (I was wondering how well the extractors work on that belted case?) Others include the 8X57, 222 rem and some others. I also like the 338 case for necking up to 375. I've built over a dozen of them (bolt rifles) for African hunters over the years and they all raved about them on game.

I still chamber for the 8x57JS. It's still my favorite all around hunting caliber.

I think breech pressure could be reduced by "improving" the 9.3 x 74. It would probably make the ideal medium bore, break barrel caliber. I would also load it pretty hot. But I find that the 9.3x72 doesn't have any thrust to speak of either, nor does the 8x58R Sauer and they are both low pressure calibers, but they have pretty straight cases.

I actually discourage the AI calibers in bolt rifles as they don't usually feed as well with the sharp shoulder, but in single shots and break barrel guns they are fine. Maybe we could design a new series of AI calibers with minimum body taper but less shoulder angle than PO's 40 degree standard.

Back on topic though, the OP was looking for an insert in a larger caliber than 6.5X57R and there are plenty of them that would work fine with no harm to the drilling.

Greg

The insert is not part of the gun and is not static, like the three barrels. It slides inside the shotgun barrel and slams against the breech face when fired. It acts nothing like a round in the static and solid original barrels.

Sure, the case is held in the insert chamber by the outward pressure, but not much holds the insert inside the shotgun barrel by comparison.

Originally posted by luv2safari

quote:

Sure, the case is held in the insert chamber by the outward pressure, but not much holds the insert inside the shotgun barrel by comparison

Very good point

quote:

Originally posted by luv2safari:
The insert is not part of the gun and is not static, like the three barrels. It slides inside the shotgun barrel and slams against the breech face when fired. It acts nothing like a round in the static and solid original barrels.

Sure, the case is held in the insert chamber by the outward pressure, but not much holds the insert inside the shotgun barrel by comparison.

I've thought about that and wondered if the insert actually slammed back against the breech face on each firing. Don't have much experience with any of the larger ones like the 8X57 etc, but have never seen it in any of those I've used & installed like the 22HP, Hornet, 5.5X50R and of course, hordes of rim fire inserts. Might happen, but I'd think it would make for sticky opening as it's held in place somewhat in the chamber by some type of wedge etc. If it came back hard against the breech, you would think it would drag on the face as the gun was opened.
Anyone here with larger CF inserts have any problems on those lines? I asked my German gunsmith buddy and he's never seen any problems with them. The smaller ones don't even contact the breech face when inserted, usually being a few thousandths below flush.

Also, I guess you'd have to calculate the actual recoil force, given the weight of the insert, and the bullet/velocity, to get the amt in ft pounds of force exerted. Some are just held in place with an adjustable ring that sits against the forcing cone. The larger ones can be pretty heavy. Interesting question though.

Greg

Another thought I had on this, was an old skeet shooting buddy I had years ago, who shot a winchester 21 double skeet gun. He loved the gun but it kicked him & he had a set of Purbaugh insert tubes made for it in 20 ga. They were super light full length aluminum and just slipped into the bores. He put an avg of a case of shells a week (500) through that gun as long as I knew him. I don't know what the calculated recoil of a 4-6 oz aluminum tube in 20 gauge would be, but I would think pretty stout. That old double was still tight as new last I saw it and he put as many shots through it in a month as an average hunter would put through an insert barrel in a lifetime, with no apparent wear to the action. I don't see the Win 21 as having any stronger action than the boxlock drillings I've examined, and some are considerable more substantial, IMO.
I still would recommend a rifle caliber drilling that is sutable for anything you want to hunt, and a sub-caliber insert, to even further expand the capabilities of an already universal hunting weapon.
Greg