I have an opportunity to purchase a pre-war Heym combo gun with 16ga over 7.8x57. It has what appears to be Deluxe grade engraving good wood - has not been a safe queen and has some handling/use marks. He's asking $1500.00 USD

Questions:
1. I have looked through my reloading books and have done an Internet search to try to find out if 7.8x57 is actually the same as "standard" 8x57 Mauser without much in the way of 100% conclusive answers. I don’t want a “show gun” I want “a shooter” and want to be able to find reloading components without having to purchase custom dies and brass.

2. I know the Heym name is excellent and is his price "reasonable"? (if I can find reloading supplies).

I'd bet it's a "rimmed" 8x57, (8x57jr) and it uses either .318" (jr) or .323" (jrs) bullets. Anyway, no matter, brass and components are available for all of the above.

I'd slug the bore to see what it actually is, and buy what is right for "that" gun.

I prefer RWS brass, and that's all i use in my 8x57jrs, but other brands are also available.

DM

DM:

Thanks for the info - after about 4 days of researching the Internet the development of the "8x57" around the turn of the century is pretty interesting. Lots of variants and that is why I want to be a bit more sure of what I might be getting into.

The metal, wood and engraving are in pretty good condition - definitely not a "show gun", but no indications of abuse either, just indicators of 80-90 years of reasoned use.

I am aware of the Heym name and the prices the new ones bring - do you think $1500 is a good buy for a good shooter?

Michael

quote:

1. I have looked through my reloading books and have done an Internet search to try to find out if 7.8x57 is actually the same as "standard" 8x57 Mauser without much in the way of 100% conclusive answers. I don’t want a “show gun” I want “a shooter” and want to be able to find reloading components without having to purchase custom dies and brass.

2. I know the Heym name is excellent and is his price "reasonable"? (if I can find reloading supplies).

Michael,

1. Yes, the 7.8x57 or 7.9x57 have been used as chambering annotations for the 8x57 (.318" or .323"). As DM mentions I'd cast the chamber to make sure exactly what the chambering is. Again, I'd also suggest that it's a rimmed cartridge (8x57R) although rimless Drilling chamberings were made also. I'm sure other brands are available but quality RWS 8x57R brass is obtainable as are their 196 gr. .318" bullets.

2. Price sounds reasonable (actually quite reasonable) to me.

It is most probably the 8X57JR and a great buy at $1,500.00 if sound.

I have at least one 8x57 that a barrel casting shows .321. My understanding is this was intentional to allow for a mistake in useing ,323 ammo if the barrel was intended to be .318.

In any case this is still not a problem just use ,318 bullets and try pulling the expander ball out of a set of 323 8mm dies I find in my case this works just fine without haveing to by a set of extra dies.

If you want and your barrel dose indeed mic out at .321 you can use 32 win bullets.

I have a 8x57JR drilling made in suhl. the proofs on this gun clearly says (Nicht fur S) I don't think that was an official proof mark but it's there. Anyway the S denotes .323 diameter so my gun is clearly .318.

My Merkel double rifle is marked both 7,8mm and 8x57 but makes no no mention of wether it is JR or JRS, or actully IR or IRS. This rifle cast out with cersafe at .321.

Yep..we used to use regular 8mm dies and .321 32 Special 170gr bullets to reload for our drillings, etc. with J bores years ago, before they became common enough here to find dies and bullets.

It is still a good way to go. I used a 303 British (.312) expander to keep the decapping pin secure and lined up, and all worked fine.

I used the 180gr 8mm .323 Mauser data for the loads, and it was pretty well regulated.

I also have a Sauer & Sohn older Drilling in 16x16x8x57JR that uses .318 bullets. If you get it and reload, just get a set of standard 8X57 RCBS dies, chuck the expander in a Dremel and lightly, very lightly run fine emery or sandpaper over the expander, measure, repeat as necessary and stop where you want. Reassemble Die and load away.

I'd say for stateside price the $1500- is reasonable, would be even more so w/Claw mounts and/or an old Hensoldt Waidmannsheil, Dom.

Gentlemen all:

Thanks all for taking the time to answer my questions – very much appreciated.

Getting close to a deal on it and Dom brought up a good point ref claw mounts. Unfortunately, it doesn’t come with mounts and I do plan on (make that old eyes need) to put some optics on it for when I use it for primary rifle/slug game.

Any one have a good source for possibly obtaining a set of claw mounts – a period set of mounts and scope would be extraordinary!!

M3

quote:

If you want and your barrel does indeed mic out at .321" you can use 32 Win. Special bullets.

Ak's idea excellent. I have a German Forester pal with an ancient Black Powder era Drilling chambered for a 8mm "something" Forester cartridge and his loves Remington 170 gr. 32 Winchester Special bullets. Luckily for him I managed to snag 8 boxes (800 bullets) for $1 per box at a Garage Sale - I think he's set for a while.

quote:

Originally posted by m3taco:
Gentlemen all:

Thanks all for taking the time to answer my questions – very much appreciated.

Getting close to a deal on it and Dom brought up a good point ref claw mounts. Unfortunately, it doesn’t come with mounts and I do plan on (make that old eyes need) to put some optics on it for when I use it for primary rifle/slug game.

Any one have a good source for possibly obtaining a set of claw mounts – a period set of mounts and scope would be extraordinary!!

M3

Probably going to be a bit more difficult and expensive in the states, they are out there. You could wiggle your way through pages and might get lucky on egun.de, like this one but it's for a rail scope, then the bases would have to be soldered and fitted by a gunsmith, and also would have to have the proper scope, unless you're mighty handy at this type stuff Einhakmontage

Anyway, you can get an idea of what's out there in Germany. With enough searching you might get lucky and find a scope with both the top and bottom pieces of the famous 'Claw Mount', good luck, type in Einhakmontage in the Search Box.

I'm unclear about your post what you have on this Heym.
So often these vintage guns have the claw bases but no rings or scope.

There are a couple of guys in the U.S. Qualified to install claw mounts (JJ at Champlins and Herbert at G.S.I.) Both are European imports JJ from France Herbert from Austria.

I actully have a box full of claw mount blanks that could be fitted to existing bases but in the long run your best bet is to send it to one of these guys.

If you choose to go with claw mounts you can pritty much plan on doubleing that original $1500.00 investment by the time you pay for a good quality scope that this gun deserves and shipping etc.

Mounting a good quality swing mount will save a lot.

Well, closed the deal on this - less than $1500 and with shipping too. Should be at my FFL's by the end of next week. Seller said it was fully functional and had a perfect rep on on GB. Will take to my GS to see what he says before I put a round of either through it.

Akshooter - it has the bases for German claw mounts on the weapon but didn't have rings or scope.

Anyone have any leads on places to maybe find a period scope and rings (State side)?

If it plays out in time, it will be one of the guns I take to Namibia again this Sept.

JJ at Champlin Arms can set you up with rings, but i'm not sure where to get a peroid scope. He may beable to help you with that too?

DM

Originally posted by m3taco

quote:

Anyone have any leads on places to maybe find a period scope and rings (State side)?

I have both but I would highly reccomend sending the gun to JJ or Herbert along with a modern German/Austrian scope.

There is an easy and inexpensive solution. Buy a couple of Weaver bases with flat bottoms (like the ones for a Marlin 336). Remove the claw bases from the rib (they lie in a dovetail). Grind the Weaver bases (front and rear edges) down to fit snugly in the respective dovetails. Insert the bases, LIGHTLY tapped into place. Do this such that the probable center line of each base (you can measure and mark this before all the above is begun) lines up with the middle of the rib. Now, just use Weaver rings. All this is EASY!! I did it on an old German BBF (O/U rifle/shotgun) .... and can send pics if wanted.
Another solution is to find the correct components on www.eGun.de
Find a seller who offers rings, and communicate with him. Send him your bases; he will send you your bases in return, with rings. Cost is about $50.00.
Have fun!!!
Alex

Conifer:

Thanks for the great idea - will keep in my back pocket. I really want to try to find period rings and scope first. I understand this will take some time and $$$$ but in the end it might add overall value by staying with the original mounts and period rings/scope.

And I appreciate the advantage of modern optics but want to try to stay with the period scope for the same reason.

I guess a lot of what I end up willing to put into it once I actually get it in my hands and the GS evaluates it. (thinking out loud here) Maybe I could send it directly to Heym?

m3

I have a very nice Hensoldt Diatal 4X32 rail scope, a Diatal 6X42 rail scope, and a 26MM steel tube non-rail Nickel Supra 2.5X7 variable. All are the traditional German 3 post.

luv2safari:

Please forgive my ignorance can you explain "rail scope".

I am interested in the 4x32 by the way - Just not familiar with the terms above.

m3

http://cgi.ebay.nl/Hertel-Reus...?hash=item35a77b0187

Beneath the scope is a "rail". Attached to the underside of the rail (in 2 places) are "claws. The claws in this picture are inserted in the claw bases....the latter of which are the componernts that slide into the dovetails on the gun's rib.

conifer:


Thanks again - now I got it (I think). The "rail" is permanently attached to the scope body and the mounts can be adjusted along each of the two rails to adapt to the particular location of the mount bases on the gun.

Any advantage to this system vs. rings that go around the scope tube and lock into the bases? Is the rail mount more “period” correct?

m3

It is period and still used. All three of my drillings use this system, even the later Sauer 3000 12/12/30-06. This has been used on sporting rifles and combination guns for 100+ years.

Notice in the link above that the rear claw mounts lie directly under the center of the scope and adjustment knobs? You can't position a tube with rings that way readily...without radical extension rings.

luv2safari:

PM Sent

Well…it is in hand and I am VERY happy with it. It was exactly as the photos showed and locks up very tight. The shotgun bore cleaned like a mirror with just a little Hoppe’s No. 9 and the rifle bore was “dark” like he said. Has taken a little more elbow grease to get the rifle bore cleaned up and the rifling looks clean and sharp but there is still a little carbon showing in the groves in a few places – but cleaning up VERY well. GS gave it a clean bill of health and said fire away. Heading for the skeet range with it in the morning.

Turns out it is in fact an 8x57JR (.318) so the next step is to locate some brass, dies and projectiles. GS said he thought he might have a set of dies stashed away somewhere and would look over the weekend. Second good news is there is a gun show here in Tampa this weekend and you never know what I may stumble across there. If my GS doesn’t have the dies I think I will do what Dom posted above ref expander die, dremel and sandpaper.

Anyone have a good place to look for brass – have done a cursory Goggle search and found a couple of places that listed it but were out of stock. One place that was listing S&B at $45/loaded box of 20.

Having a very hard time finding 8x57JR unprimed brass.

Question – is the only difference between the 8x57JR (.318) and the 8x57JRS (.323) the neck diameter? If so, I can find several sources of the JRS brass and they should easily neck down to .318. Can anyone with more knowledge & experience confirm this?

Thanks again for all the previous help and info.

Michael

Try Natchez for the loaded ammo. Last I saw, it was about $22.00/box. AND...it regulates well in general in the older combo guns; it must approximate the old loads. I have come to the point it is all I use now in my drillings and cape gun.

quote:

Originally posted by m3taco:
Having a very hard time finding 8x57JR unprimed brass.

Question – is the only difference between the 8x57JR (.318) and the 8x57JRS (.323) the neck diameter? If so, I can find several sources of the JRS brass and they should easily neck down to .318. Can anyone with more knowledge & experience confirm this?

Thanks again for all the previous help and info.

Michael

Yes you can run the JRS brass through a JR die and use it...

DM

The JRS brass like DM says will work fine.

I have a technque where I size my jr brass in my JS dye the pull the expander ball off and size the neck again this seems to work well. I would guess you can order a .318 expander ball also and I would have by now but what I'm doing works fine. If this gun is your only 8x57 just order the .318 dyes.

In your area the best source for high end guns and the ammo for them is Custom Engraving in Bradenton. (941) 748-7349 John will get you going.

Thanks again all - My little project is moving along pretty well. Was able to locate 15 boxes of factory new S&B for $15/box – took them all.

Got to the skeet range on base today and test out the shotgun…..very, very sweet. Just seems to fit me very naturally. Only did one round (no doubles – LOL) before a buddy and I headed to the gun show. Found a single box of S&B JR at the gun show, but didn’t get back in time to get to the rifle range to try that part out. So, with the rounds I have on hand and coming in this week I have enough brass to last the rest of my lifetime. No .318 projectiles at the show today at all.

So, the remaining items on my list are a pre WWII scope and claw rings, a set of dies and projectiles. RCBS does list the JR dies but I think I can do better than $145.00 – plus with 300 rounds factory loads on the way I can take my time to keep looking. Sad thing is I just missed a set on GB about 10 days ago for $35.

Thanks again for all the help, advice and recommendations.

m3taco,

Simpson's has a couple of scopes that might fit your needs for sale right now. I've only seen what they have posted and can't talk to specifics, but I've purchased a couple of rifles from them in the past and they've been very good to work with. They are both advertised as having claw mounts, but I have no idea if they would work for you. I'm sure some work would be required. Here is the link: German scopes

Good-guy report on Conifer

Had exchanged PM’s and emails with Conifer regarding some pre-WWII scopes he had. Had the pleasure to meet him today in Gainesville and made a very satisfactory deal on a nice period 4x32 rail mount scope.

Conifer – it was a pleasure meeting you today and wish you all the best.

OK – now I am looking for a set of rail mounts to join the scope to the claw mount bases. Anyone happen to have an old set they would like to sell?

I have bought mounts to fit a rail scope to claw bases and to the Kreighoff-style bases from AKAH in Germany. They will make up what you need and ship it to you for final fitting by your smith.

If yours were made by the gunmaker, as were most pre-war, the AKAH will probably be vastly different in dimensions. If the bases are in fact AKAH, they are standardized by AKAH and will need someone familiar with claw mounts to do the final fitting. It takes a smith VERY familiar to do this, or your gun will shoot different places every time you take the scope off and put it back.

The best advice is to get mated bases and claws...trust me. These are now around $600.00 in the white and still need some final fitting. With Suhler mounts, there is no easy and cheap way to do it right.

quote:

Originally posted by m3taco:
I have an opportunity to purchase a pre-war Heym combo gun with 16ga over 7.8x57. It has what appears to be Deluxe grade engraving good wood - has not been a safe queen and has some handling/use marks. He's asking $1500.00 USD

Questions:
1. I have looked through my reloading books and have done an Internet search to try to find out if 7.8x57 is actually the same as "standard" 8x57 Mauser without much in the way of 100% conclusive answers. I don’t want a “show gun” I want “a shooter” and want to be able to find reloading components without having to purchase custom dies and brass.

2. I know the Heym name is excellent and is his price "reasonable"? (if I can find reloading supplies).

Look the marks on the barrel buts under the frame with the barrels removed. If it is stamped 16Ga for the shot barrel you need to ask if the chamber is 2 3/4" or the short chamber. The rifle barrel stamped 7.8MM 57 and is a rimmed case then it is bored for the .318 diameter bullet, and it should also be stamped with an "N" and 196 Max. the "N" is for nitro proofing, and the 196 max is the .318 bullet weight is was regulated with. It i most likely a 16ga over an 8x57JR (.318 dia) the 8.9mm is the .323 dia bullet like the 8mm Mauser. If the chamberin short on the shotgun side, the chamber can be lengthened easily, and most 16 ga on combos with an .318 bore dia on the rifle barrel will have a short shot chamber as well, and the choke is usually extremely tight (SUPER FULL) That can be opened up to modified, and will work much better with shot shells today, that use shot cups wads. They don't need much choke.

I have a H. Barella Cape gun made in 1930 in Berlin.Germany,that is 16ga on the left barrel, and 8X57JR (.318 dia) on the right barrel. I had it modified the way I mentioned above, and it is one fine hunting gun for North America!

Thanks again gents!

I had the pleasure to talk to JJ at Champlin Arms last week. Good news is he said he could do the work no problem – bad news is they are going to be changing locations and he can’t promise me the work will be done by the time I leave in Sept for Namibia.

Tried to find a web page for “G.S.I” as Akshooter had recommended – either I or Goggle aren’t smart enough to find it.

Was able to locate a few other GS that have interesting/impressive web sites, but personal recommendations might be a better place to start.

MacD37 – My GS confirmed it was the .318 and it does have the 2 ¾” chamber and as you said “extra full” choke. The little thing was pretty impressive at the skeet range. All I could find in the local sporting goods store in 16ga were #4 shot. Between the tight choke and big shot I was able to reach out pretty well on the clays. This may make a very nice turkey gun!

I did ask my GS if he could make the mounts and he was pretty honest and recommended I contact someone who specialized in that work and who had done a few more than he had. That is why I use him – he is fare priced and honest with what he can and can’t do well.

(205) 655-8299 Ask for Herbert

Merkel-usa.com

I think you can get .318 bullets from Woodleigh and from Hawk.

I have had excellent results on game with Hawk bullets.

www.hawkbullets.com.

In an 8x57 I would robably get the .035jkt

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:


I have had excellent results on game with Hawk bullets.

www.hawkbullets.com.

In an 8x57 I would probably get the .035jkt

At the slower velocities, I have had good luck with some thinner jacketed Hawks I got in a trade. They are fine for your drilling, IMO, and I second the opinion.