G'day, Thanks guys! O.K, I'll go first, What's everyone favourite version of the Combogun? The BBF? The Drilling? Vierling? Bockdrilling? and so on .....
Me, I like the good old BBF, Nice, light, quick handling.

Cheers, Dave.
Non Illegitium Carborundum

Ok, I'll add a post here.

What is a BBF? The rest I am fairly familiar with.

Hog Killer

G'day Hog Killer. A BBF is a shotgun BBL and a rifle BBL, arranged vertically. As far as I know, it doesn't matter which one goes where, the configuration is still known as a Bochbuschflinte (rough translation, some of the german letters aren't available on an english keyboard). Since Bochbuschflinte is a fairly unwieldy word, most people I know simply use the acronym BBF.
Anyone know any different?
Hope that helps you out.

Cheers, Dave.
Non Illegitium Carborundum.

Sambar.....I am grateful to you for urging the birth of this forum. I have a few combos: BBFs and drillings, and am expecting another BBF shortly. I like the BBF; it seems to carry easily and rises in the arms quickly for a sighting. But the drilling gives me the enjoyable S/S plane that I enjoy with a S/S double shotgun! So, to me, it's a toss-up. One of my BBFs is a BRNO 12/7x57R, with an extra set of 12/12 barrels. It is delightfully accurate, and a pleasure to carry. It isn't fancy, so I feel better carrying it hunting than I do my O/U 16 ga./8x57JR...which is a magnificent piece, with deep chisel engraving and gorgeously-grained wood. Anyhow...it's all fun.
Best regards...
Alex

conifer, is your BRNO one of the 300 series? The one with the odd trigger arrangement? If you pull the front trigger, the rifle bbl fires. But if you pull the back trigger first, the rifle bbl still fires first, the with the second pull of the rear trigger, you get the shotgun bbl. Is that the way your Brno works?

Cheers, Dave
Non Illegitium Carborundum

Sambar.......so help me, I forget....I am on the road at the moment .... cannot recall an odd arrangement re the triggers....I believe there are 2 triggers each dedicated to its respective hammer/barrel.

conifer, no probs, it's just that I had one of the 300 series in .22 savage hi-power/12g and that was the way the triggers worked. But there is another BRNO (CZ 584?) with a more conventional trigger arrangement. I have one in 270 win/12g. Great gun, very accurate for the first 3 shots, then the vertical stringing sets in, quite badly.

Cheers, Dave.
Non Illegitium Carborundum

I "think" mine is a Model 500, but am unsure. I didn't notice any stringing. It has a wonderful QD scope mount rail, with an OLD German Geco scope......very crisp optics but extremely coarse post reticle which is a pain; everything is like new though. I like shooting it.

conifer, the vertical stringing only happens when 3 or more shots are fired rapidly. Since I usually pick my shots at deer carefully with any combo gun (they are, after all a single shot rifle!), and pass up any that look marginal or risky, it doesn't bother me.
But if you where, say, using the 223 version for sniping at rabbits, it might be a problem.

Cheers, Dave.
Non Illegitium Carborundum

quote:

O.K, I'll go first, What's everyone favourite version of the Combogun? The BBF? The Drilling? Vierling? Bockdrilling? and so on .....

Well, my only experience is with the BBF, which is a pretty good experience at that... but there is a sort of romance about the cape gun that makes me really want one; a bigbore at that....

I think the best overall version of the combo gun is the drilling [2 shotgun bbls and one rifle bbl].
A drilling is a perfectly good double shotgun, thus suited for hunting for all game where you would use a shotgun, and it is a perfectly good single shot rifle, thus suited for all game a rifle in that caliber is good for.
For hunting in the western USA and Alaska a double rifle drilling would be a good choice.
A combo gun [one rifle bbl, one shotgun bbl] seems neither fish nor foul to me. I used to have one. I much prefer tha drilling for most uses.
This is why I want a Krieghoff Quadro. With the insert bbl I can go from a drilling to a double rifle drilling.

Hello All,
I have enjoyed all varieties of combination guns for 40+ years, and find it hard to pick just one??!! They all have merits of their own.
I still have 3 drillings, 2 BBF's and 1 cape gun. I intend to take my Kettner (BBF) in 9.3X74RX12Ga to SA next year, but my true favorite for handling is an old Sauer (hammer) cape gun in .43 MauserX16Ga. It is light, quick to handle and points like a Darne. HOWEVER!!!! with this said if I had to pick just one gun out of the ones offered by Sambar 9.3 I would probably choose the traditional drilling. With birds, as I get older I find that a second shot is needed more and more, and as with Sambar 9.3, I choose my shots very carefully so a single shot rifle would still fit my needs. Take care and God bless. (Gerry!!! yes I am taking the Husky also )


cordell (aka Vark Skieter)

I've only had double shotgun style drillings, so I don't have a basis for comparison, but they work well for my type of hunting. I tend to use the gun as a shotgun, with a rifle barrel just in case an appropriate opportunity presents itself.

Sambar, I have a Brno Zh304; 7x57R over 12g.The front trigger is rifle,the back fires the 12g.on first pull and the 7mm on the second.Useful with SG in the 12g. and the second shot as the survivors stop for a look back from half way up the hill.
Regards from sunny Maitland.
Garry

Does anyone have any experience with the Blaser D99 or 95/97 rimless extractors? I have only ever used these guns with rimmed cartridges, and people keep asking me about the rimless chamberings.
Anyone? I know the Sauer is O.K, and the Kreighoff has a good reputation, but the only Blaser I have seen in a break open action for a rimless cartridge, is a K95, in 243.

Cheers, Dave.
Non Illegitium Carborundum

I have a K-95 in 243 and 30-06 it works pretty good, just an extractor though.

Nice rifle all the same.

Dave, I ordered my D99 2 weeks ago! Come out and visit with your Tiber offroad and we'll shoot them

Aleko

Aleko, I'd love to slide on over to the USA, but the sad fact is, there is just too much good hunting to be had here in OZ!
Maybe you should bring your D99 over here?
BTW, got another Fallow yesterday evening, ! shot, through both shoulders, clipped the lower edge of the spine, dropped it like a rock. Problem is, it wasn't the one I was aiming at!
A great looking buck, even allowing for overestimating antler size he would have been 200+ Douglas score. I was suprised to see him still carrying antlers, normally they have cast by now. Line up no this beauty, cock the 95BBF, he must have seen the slight movement (only about 50' away), he lets out a bark just as I am breaking the shot, and a Doe jumps up in front of him! Perfect shot, right out of the textbooks! Just not the one I was aiming at!
That's life!

Cheers, Dave.
Non Illegitium Carborundum

We can make a plan for sure, still want to sell your Blaser?


Aleko

Yes, the timber offroad has to go, to make way for another combogun, possibly a drilling.

Cheers, Dave.
Non Illegitium Carborundum

here is my email ha1@xmission.com, let's chat

Aleko

I like the Blaser upside down drilling.

D99, I was torn when I ordered my D99. I have used the 97's alot, they are great guns

Aleko

Why not get both?

I want a D99 9.3x74R, 9.3x74R, 6.5x65R,

And I want a R97 Classic in 9.3x74R

I also want a D99 in 22 Savage High power, 20, 20.

D99, why 5,6x52R? Does Blaser use a .224" diameter barrel? How about a 5,6x50R it is a .224 " Diameter

Aleko

Here is my personal favourite drilling, a Sauer und Sohn 3000 in 12/12/6,5x57R with a Zeiss 4x32 in claw mount. Good for roe and deer hunting.

Fritz

Nice gun! Almost the same as the one in the shop down the street. Except that one wears a 1.5-6 Zeiss.
Now all I have to do is win the lotto........

Cheers, Dave.
Non Illegitium Carborundum

My favorite combo is the CAPE GUN. (S/S shotgun/rifle)! I have two, one is a H.Berrela, a 16 ga on the left barrel, and 8X57JR on the right barrel. This is a very well made sodelock hammer gun, with chopper lump underlugs, side clips, and Greener cross bolt. It places 196 gr softs, or solids
on poa at 100 yds, and the left barrel places a Brenneke slug right beside the rifle bullet also at 100 yds. the shot barrel has been opened up to modified, and is a real dove getter.
The second one is a V. Haffner with a 20 ga on the left, and a 58 Berdan rifle on the right. The shot barrel is a great bird barrel, and the rifle barrel is a tack driver @ 100 yds, on deer, and Black bear! It has damascus barrels, and is a back action hammer gun, with a Jones lever lock-up! It has a horn butt plate and filagree horn carveing behind the steel trigger guard, forming a pistol grip.

I also have a Merkel S/S 9.3X74R double rifle that is going back to the factory for a set of cape barrels with a 20 ga on the left, and 9.3X74R on the right to be fitted.

On the subject of drillings, the only configuration I care for are the double rifle drillings with the shot barrel under!

To MacD37:
Can you recommend max. safe handloads for the 8x57JR?? I have a wonderful German BBF for 16Ga./8-JR, and would like more oomph that the S&B loads provide. Any thoughts???
Thanks.
Alex

quote:

Originally posted by conifer:
To MacD37:
Can you recommend max. safe handloads for the 8x57JR?? I have a wonderful German BBF for 16Ga./8-JR, and would like more oomph that the S&B loads provide. Any thoughts???
Thanks.
Alex

Alex, you don't want to go too high with the pressures in a cape gun!

CAUTION I'd back off to about 43.0 grs, and work back up till you see the right load for your rifle, or get even the smallest sign of pressure!

The load that shoots to my sights @ 100 yds is:

Norma Brass
196 gr Norma soft point RN
45.0 grs IMR 4064
CCI LR primer
Bullet seated to camular!
on my Crono is clocks right on 2440 fps

That is only 60 fps slower than a 30-06 with a 200 gr bullet! It will flat yank the world out from under a 300 lb wild boar, or black bear!

got it....will do...thanks a million!!

i have sauer drilling 16 gauge rifle barell is 303 british,very acurrate, i use it for all kind of game, if i go after brownies i trust my merkel double rifle 9.3x74r, 18 kills on road on BIG GAME

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

The load that shoots to my sights @ 100 yds is:

Norma Brass
196 gr Norma soft point RN
45.0 grs IMR 4064
CCI LR primer
Bullet seated to camular!
on my Crono is clocks right on 2440 fps

That is only 60 fps slower than a 30-06 with a 200 gr bullet!

My Nosler book shows 30-06 loaded with 200NP's at nearly 2,700, so that 8mm load is a ways under a full power 30-06 load. I agree that the 8mm works pretty well on 300 pound animals though, as i load my 8x57jrs 2,550 with 200NP's and it's worked pretty well for me on bigger animals.

DM

I am new to combo guns and only have experience with my Blaser BBF 97 12 ga over 308, but I am quite fond of it. Mine is the "short version" with 20.5" barrels, and for the way and places I hunt, it is perfect. This was my first season to hunt with it, and it served me well.

I think the idea of a combo gun is versatility. Therfore a vierling would fit that best.

Of course the more barrels you hang on then the heavier and complcated they become.

For my puposes I like the idea of a bock drilling because I'm really not much of a bird hunter. With a bock drilling you can have a light game heavy game and something for small game with the shot barrel.

Haveing said that though I will digress because a standard drilling with an einstucklauf will be a bockdrilling as long as the barrel insert is in and you have the option of removeing it and having the double shotgun.

I don't agree that a BBF is a bad compromise or that they handle poorly. Both of my BBF's are as light as most of my bolt action and singleshot rifles.

I think the one that may well fit my purposes best is the ne that was'nt mention in the original post and that is a bergstutzen.

Like I said I'm not much of a bird hunter and for the most part the shot barrels on my combo guns are dedicated to bucksho and slugs.

With a bergstutzen you can just bypass all the delitarious barrels and have a light weight big game rifle with a small caliber barrel for small game. That would be perfect when I hunt Kodiak island for deer and furbearers But again woulden't one my bbf's with a einstucklauf serve the same as the bergstutzen?

I don't know I guess thats why I have a bunch of them.

Combination guns have a proper time and place for use, and they do it very well. My vote goes also to the Bockdrilling. Depends on the type of hunting you do, but for my purpose I have instant choice of shot, small caliber or large caliber. I do not use it when I hunt mountains, on drive hunts, or carry it as an upland bird gun, there are better tools for that trade. But for sitting, and the option to effectively shoot anything that comes along within reason, I haven't found anything to beat it.

Blaser Bockdrilling, BD 880, 20ga over 30-06 with 22 Hornet on the side. Swing off Swaro 3-12x50 Ill Dot, fully loaded under 10 pounds. As a break open I do not find it too long and unwieldy, Waidmannsheil, Dom.

Very cool gun DOM

Would be just about the perfect choice of calibers as well.

I wonder if I put a .22 hornet einstucklauf in one of my drillings how it would compare in weight.

I don't think it would be 10 pounds but you have a whole lot of scope on yours.

quote:

Originally posted by DM:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

The load that shoots to my sights @ 100 yds is:

Norma Brass
196 gr Norma soft point RN
45.0 grs IMR 4064
CCI LR primer
Bullet seated to camular!
on my Crono is clocks right on 2440 fps

That is only 60 fps slower than a 30-06 with a 200 gr bullet!

My Nosler book shows 30-06 loaded with 200NP's at nearly 2,700, so that 8mm load is a ways under a full power 30-06 load. I agree that the 8mm works pretty well on 300 pound animals though, as i load my 8x57jrs 2,550 with 200NP's and it's worked pretty well for me on bigger animals.

DM

DM I'd think with what I take from your posts here, that you are well versed on Combination guns of most types, and ages, and the dangers of over zelous handloading for this type of firearm. Evedently this is not the case if your post quoted above is any indication.

Simply because a load book shows a load that is much higher, doesn't necessarily make that load proper for a 110 yr old combination gun. I have always been tought that older guns need to be approched very carefully when working up a load. This means starting with the lowest load you can find for the bullet weight you want to use in the firearm.

Addtionally, if the exact cartridge is not listed,like the 8x57JR (.318 dia), one must use the data for the 8X57JRS, or JS and reduce the bottom load by at least 5% before starting to work up a load. The final load should never exceed the lowest listed load in the book, or slightly higher. This usually will duplicate the factory load for the cartridge in question, and the comparison to any other cartridge should also duplicate factory loads in that cartridge as well. Factory loads for 30-06 with a 200 gr bullet will rarely go beyond 2500 FPS from a hunting rifle.

So what the work-up goal should be is a load that is no faster that it takes to shoot to regulation of the sights at the marked range on the sights. This is as close as one can get to the origenal load that the rifle was regulated with, and considered by the maker to be a safe load in the rifle, with continued use in the field.

It is my opinion, that anyone who is not very conservative with his work-up of a load for an old rifle and to stop at the speed that shoots to the regulation of the sights is treding on thing ice.

Even the brand new combination, be they drilling, verling, cape gun or O/U combos, or double rifles, the platform is designed to be used with standard factory ammo, or very close equivelant. Go beyond that, and you are doing lasting damage to a very fine piece of hand work!

All this to say, the 2440 fps for the 8X57JR (.318 dia) in a 110 yr old cape gun is pleanty, and is in fact, only about 60 FPS lower the a factory ammo for the 30-06 with a 200 gr bullet, from a hunting rifle barrel length!

I'm not in any way telling anyone here to load with my system, just pointing out that the firearms we are dealing with here are not BOLT ACTION strong, and should be approched with some measure of caution, when working from load books that the testing was done in 30" test barrels, and in a very strong test gun.

With that, I'll leave the forum to those who live here.

I have to agree with NE450. The standard drilling with 2 shot barrels is my pick. I'm a fan of single shot rifles and one shot is normally plenty if you do your part. At least on non-dangerous game. I also have no use whatever, for a single shot shotgun. Even a well hit bird can require that second barrel and you get real busy with a single on covey rises . I think double rifle drillings are interesting but have never seen a double that shot all that well. Even shot a few English high grades over the years. 2-3" @ 50 yards was about as good as any I've shot or seen shot (alternating barrels), though some seem to do better. But you still have that single shot shotgun. It's depressing to hit that turkey or duck etc and know he's hit pretty well & will likely die, but not have that finishing shot. Just my opinion, after 40+ years messing with drillings, combos & such.

I pretty much agree with the standard double shotgun drilling being the most useful as a whole. There are great insert barrels to make them versatile, while they have the two shots for a bird hunting option. I had a very nice older double rifle drilling in 8X57JR and 16ga...that put the two rifle shots about 8" apart at 80 yards....too far apart for me. I found it to be far less useful for my North American hunting than a conventional drilling with a decent scope and two shotgun barrels.

Heck, I even liked my Valmet BBFs better, and they were 1/5 the price.

Mac...I am with you in watching velocity and pressure like a hawk in my combos. I try for a regulated load first, provided it doesn't get into higher than prudent velocities.

The 180gr factory Remington PSP 30-06 is on the button in my 1960's Sauer 3000, and S&B factory fodder is about perfect in my earlier Triebel Ausgburg 8X57JR gun.. My 1950's Sauer 6.5X57R loves the Hirtenberger ammo I blundered into much better than the S&B, for some reason.

None of these chrono like rockets,but they sure kill deer and antelope.