I have a Krieghoff Drilling in 16x16 and 7x57R, and an A.Sodia combo gun in 16 over 7x57R. Both guns are beautiful and highly engraved. Both guns have scopes in QD mounts. The 7x57R barrels shoot great. I have shot them out to 100yds and they shoot sub-MOA for 3 shots with some ammo and under 2MOA with all ammo I have shot. I am impressed with the rifle barrels but not so much with the slugs.

I have tried Remington, Federal and Brenneke lead slugs at 25 yards. The drilling shoots all slugs 4" high and 4" right (right barrel) and 4" high and 4" left (left barrel). The combo gun shoots the Rem and Fed slugs 6" left and Bren slugs 4" left and 4" high.

I was hoping to have the slugs shooting fairly close to the rifle barrel at 25 and 50 yards. Am I expecting too much? Is there a practical way to get the shotgun barrels to shoot closer (screw in chokes?) that does not require barrel separation/soldering? I think the drilling is shooting a decent minute-of-deer/pig out to 25 yards. The combo gun not so much.

I am going to see how they pattern buckshot out to 25 yards, but I really am not a big fan of buckshot. I appreciate everyone's comments and suggestions.

Thank you.........Larry

Lots of folks here with a lot more experience than me, but I've spent a good bit of range time with the few I have and the few that have passed through my hands. For me it takes a long time and a bunch of shooting to find a slug load that goes to sights. My best luck has been with the left barrel on drillings. I have found that when I am testing slug loads, I must shoot off hand, or with my hands holding the gun. If I put them on a rest, the POI moves a bunch. For my old O/U 8/16, I finally found 20 guage Breneke's went to sights in an adapter. I couldn't find a 16 guage slug that would work in that gun, but I keep looking. For my drillings, so far only my 12/12/9.3x74 left barrel goes to sights and only then with Lightfield Low Recoil slugs.
I assume that slugs from the shotgun barrels are going to react somewhat like bullets from double rifles. So after I shoot a few different loads and track where they hit, I start reading boxes and try to either change velocity or bullet weight to move POI. I don't know that there is any science to it, but it amuses me and keeps me off the streets.
As for buckshot, I hunt quite a bit in SE Virginia where it is used. I've had best patterns with No. 1 buck. In my sixteens, forty is about max range, in my 12 I still get pretty good patterns to fifty yards. I have killed deer with it and they have all dropped in less than fifty feet, usually they just fall over.

On the other hand, I've read that slugs weren't really used by German hunters. They used some large shot to shoot a large rabbit that they hunted, but that slugs were not used or not legal. I read that on the internet, so it must be true. I have no idea if it's true or not.
It's fun to experiment and search for what works.
It would be pretty boring if the first thing you tried worked.
Bfly

All folks I know with drillings have just tried a wide variety of slugs to find the one that shoots closest to their aiming sight. Those that do use them are normally for a very close shot max 50 meters unless they have found the magic slug that prints exactly to where they have their rifle sighted in.

Having the drillings bbls regulated for slugs was optional and i bet most never got that treatment.

My Krieghoff shoots Remington slugs pretty good, but i keep the range under 40 yards too.

DM

I would love to try slugs in 16 bore Hambrusch combination gun, but the challenge of getting slugs in the uk in 16 bore is too much hassle. Technically you can use a 12 bore with slugs to shoot deer in England, but don't know of anybody who does so. The only time I would see a slug being useful was for driven shooting to have an immediate close range follow up shot on driven boar, and by close range I mean under 30 yds.

A question for those who do use slugs - is the shot pattern any indication of where a slug will shoot - will a slug go to the centre of the pattern within short distances, or is that just wishful thinking.

quote:

A question for those who do use slugs - is the shot pattern any indication of where a slug will shoot - will a slug go to the centre of the pattern within short distances, or is that just wishful thinking.

In MY experience, it's wishful thinking...

DM

I am going to pattern the barrels with shot loads to see if the patterns are centered. I have shot skeet and trap with the drilling and have hit between 15 and 20 which is probably about as good as I can do considering how unnaturally it points for me.

I spoke to a gunsmith at Briley today and he suggested that a screw in choke installed could center the slugs much better. He also suggested I pattern it for shot prior to sending it in. That is a consideration.

I have owned many drillings and shot many others over the years. They are all finicky when it comes to slugs.

Some guns like slower loads, other like high velocity slugs. My current drilling, a JP Sauer Sidelock in 12/12 x 8/57JR shoots standard velocity Brenneke slugs made by Rio the best; and even then there is a 4" separation for the barrels. However, I know where each barrel shoots and how to utilize that barrel. My left barrel is extremely accurate to 40 yards and I shoot it first, and 40 yards is my max for slugs.

You just have to experiment and find what your gun shoots best; then learn to live with it and get to know your gun and how to shoot it.

Drillings were not regulated like double rifles, but they are the most versatile gun of all.

Mike

My Antonio Zoli 12ga/7x57R puts both slugs and rifle rounds into sub 4 inch groups consistently at 100 yards: BUT this didn't happen "right out of the box" so to say.

I was developing hand loads for the rifle and found several bullet weight and powder combinations that worked well. However; the point of impact of the various rifle groups varied up to 8 inches vertically as well as 4 plus inches horizontally!

I marked where those loads grouped on clean targets and then tried every slug I could get my hands on until I found one that: 1) Grouped well at at least 50yds and 2) impacted at the same point that a rifle load impacted. The winners were 154gr Hornady's at about 2600fps (right at what Norma factory velocity out of my rifle barrel - Norma factory also worked with 156gr Oryx bullets) and Brenneke Black Magic short mags as well as the Green tipped ones, can't recall what they are called.

I have a new to me Angelo Zoli 12ga/222 Rem. (looks like a Valmet 412? Has a Valmet scope mount that says "Valmet" on it. Did Angelo Zoli make any guns for Valmet in the mid 80's?) Anyway, I have one load worked up for the 222 that shoots very well but none of the slugs I have on hand are closer than 4 inches low at 50 though they are in line vertically. When the hysteria subsides and more choices for slugs, and something other than the supply of 55gr Hornady bullets I have on hand are available I'll see if there is some combination out there that will work.

I believe that Zoli made guns for Husqvarna at one time. They now have the machinery for making the Husqvarna 1600 that they call the Zoli 1900.

I have worked with the Krieghoff drilling and the A.Sodia combo gun some more. The drilling will shoot slugs very good with clean barrels. At 50yds I have the right barrel shooting 1" high and right of the bull and the left barrel 1" high and left. I can do this for 2 shots per barrel before it starts climbing high and right or left. That happens even if the barrels are cool. I am very happy with that. When I start with a clean barrel, the first 4 slugs per barrel are just right and left of the bull with the rifle firing dead center of the bull. I am starting to really enjoy shooting the drilling and look forward to hunting with it.

The A. Sodia combo and I will probably be parting company. All slugs shoot 6-8" left of center at 25yds when the rifle is zero'd. I can't even go to 50yds and expect to be on the paper with a dead center hold. It will group them all in one big ragged hole but too far left. The rifle barrel likes any factory ammo except Hornady. The shotgun barrel will put 6-9 (out of 12) buckshot pellets in a 6" circle at 25yds which is pretty good and this same barrel will shoot #4 shot very tightly as well. It will obliterate the standard "turkey head" target at 25yds. The other set of barrels are 16x16. I shoot it fairly well on skeet but if I am only shooting upland birds, I prefer to shoot my SxS hammer gun. The A. Sodia performs well and it is a beautiful gun, I just prefer the rifle/shotgun capabilities of the drilling over the combo OU.

Ballistic Products had stuff for reloading slugs, that might be an avenue of approach.

I have a merkel 96k 20/7x57R, manufactured 2007. I have been thinking about slugs, but not tried them yet. Is there any chance my gun could be damaged by shooting slugs?

Some years ago rifles were practically forbidden, so we used om moose and boar (and bear in bear lounge) only shotguns and slugs. There were a lot of them, but "Poleva bullet" was a real discovery - useful and accurate. This is number 4:

If you cannot get slugs to shoot acceptable in you drilling, do not count buckshot totally out.

I killed a deer at @35 yards with one of my drillings with Federal 3" 20ga #2 Buckshot.

The deer was facing me. I was suprised how deep the individual pellets penetrated at that distance.

I have also killed turkeys with standard 2 3/4" 20 ga #3 Buckshot, that were out of normal birdshot range.
One time I even killed 2 good gobblers with one shot.

It is almost impossible to find a double barreled shotgun that will regulate the barrels with slugs. The drilling is basically a double barreled shotgun with a rifle barrel between them underneath. First off the shot barrels were only regulated for shot shells, and the other thing is most times if fixed chokes are usually one barrel open, and the other tight, which exacerbates the problem further. If the shot barrels have screw in choke tubes one can at least make both barrels the same, but even then in my experience it is rare that they will regulate with slugs satisfactorily.

The combination guns like the over/under, or side by side (cape guns) are a little more forgiving because one barrel doesn’t have to regulate to the other barrel because the shot barrel is shot instinctively, and the iron sights are for the rifle barrel. Though sometimes, the shot barrel will shoot slugs to the iron sights at some range in these two types but not often.

I was lucky enough to find a little H. Berella cape gun chambered for 16 ga on the left barrel, and a 8X57R (318 dia) on the right barrel. That cape gun was originally choked extra tight on the shot barrel, and I opened it up to modified choke because it was simply too tight and birds had to be let fly way out to let the pattern get wide enough to hit flying quail.

The rifle side would print every shot from a moderately cool barrel right on the sights at 100 yds, and I found the shot barrel would print a Brenneke slug right beside the rifle bullet, also at 100 yds, about the maximum effective range for a slug . This little cape gun is a treasure, and a real pleasure to hunt with!

I have another cape gun that is older Damascus barrled gun(black powder). The left barrel is a short 20 ga shotgun, and the right barrel is chambered for the 58 Berdan rifle cartridge. This cape gun is beautiful and the shot barrel is a dove & quail getter for sure, and the rifle barrel on the right is a fine deer rifle for woods hunting, but each barrel may as well be on separate guns because they do not shoot to the same point on the target with a slug in the shot tube, and a lead bullet in the rifle barrel. Still both work well one their own.

I have several double barreled shotguns, and not one of the will regulate together with slugs from both barrels. If you find one that will regulate consider yourself lucky, and hang on to it!
...................................................................

And so continues the search for the double that can shoot bullet (slug/ball) and shot equally well and within reasonable regulation.

The search began over 150 years ago. Various methodologies were tried and tested. But all gave satisfactory results with only one type of cartridge, shot or bullet, and performed poorly with the other type of cartridge. Finally, in 1885, Colonel George V. Fosbery solved the problem by coming up with a system that, paradoxically, was equally efficient as both a shotgun and a bore rifle. Fosbery licensed his invention to Holland & Holland who appropriately named it - the 'Paradox'. A paradox is something that is made up of two opposite things and seems impossible but actually is possible.

Many people mistakenly think you can just use rifled, or partially rifled, barrels in SxS form and get them to regulate but it just doesn't work that way. Fosbery had only used his invention to make single barrel guns but Holland & Holland developed a proprietary method for regulating two 'Paradox' barrels in SxS configuration. Holland & Holland offered their first 'Paradox' guns in 1886. As soon as the patent expired several other makers copied the design. Holland & Holland still makes 'Paradox' guns though there was a pause in production for several decades. As far as I know, no other maker is currently offering a properly regulated 'Paradox' gun.

Celebrating 125 years of Holland's 'Paradox', 1886-2011:

Its been my experience that most normal shotguns don't really shoot slugs that well much beyond 35 yds or so, which is fine for a tree stand in the woods. I have always tested all the different slug varieties offered and usually found one that might be a little more accurate. I have had best results through a light modified barrel (.015) in most cases. The Europeans seem to have a better selection of slugs for smoothbore use...they have more of a market for it I assume.

i have drilling wirh both barells that are regulated with 20/76 brenneke slugs,both barells are very accurate,

I have a Merk O/U 12 over 30-06. The 12 shoots Brenneke's, buck and shot to the sights at 50. Guess i'm just lucky!

I love the gun (as you can imagine)...

JDA

quote:

Originally posted by TEUTONIC:
i have drilling wirh both barells that are regulated with 20/76 brenneke slugs,both barells are very accurate,

Both barrels are accurate, but do they regulate? Regulation in any double barreled forearm means both barrels form a working composite group of shots from both barrels!
That rarely happens with double barreled shotguns with slugs! I have found that when both barrels form a composite group of both barrels it is usually with Brenneke slugs!

when i ordered my drilling from suhl,i told mastergunsmith to regulate both barells with brenneke slugs,so i can shoot with scope both very accurate,it cost extra money but my trio is very effective now 2 times 20/76 brenneke and 9.3x74r

I have moved the pattern on a SxS shotgun, by gluing a piece of 180 grit automotive paper on one side of a 5/8" straight dowel, and taking out a few thou from the end of the one barrel choke in the direction I wanted the pattern to go. The dowel was 2' long, and the 4"x1/2" strip of emery was in the middle, so as to keep the wear at the muzzle reasonably straight. I would bet that the same treatment would work on slugs. Most drillings have too much choke anyway. Watch out for thin muzzles, though.

Brenneke USA has begun to import 16GA 2-1/2 inch one ounce slugs. It took a while, but my distributor was encouraged to order some, and I recently took delivery of 50 boxes. I have a Merkel drilling that was regulated for these slugs in the left barrel. When it warms up again I'm going to try some of them.

I found a slug that works with my Angelo Zoli (looks like a Valmet 412?) in 12ga over 222. The higher velocity Brenneke slugs shot much to low even at 25 yds to be of any use.

I saw some Fiocchi 12 ga 1 ounce LOW RECOIL slugs at Midway and ordered a box of ten. These slugs are at approx. 1150fps according to the box (not cronographed yet).

I took them to the range and low and behold they shot on with the 222 height wise, a bit of adjustment on the barrels and they shot spot on with the scope/222 setting at 25.

Accuracy at 50 yds was acceptable, about 5 inches all centered on target, 100yds, not so much, only one hit out of the two fired and it was a good foot off. However; this is a great improvement over the high velocity slugs in terms of usable accuracy. These should have no problem with whitetails or black bear at 50 yds or less.

The principle here is an interesting one:Lower velocity = higher impact because of longer "barrel time" giving more "lift" due to recoil.

Hunter Montana

Also try the Remington Low recoil slugs.
They shoot to POI in my wifes Drilling, and in my Beretta single shot folding shot gun.

We have both killed wild pigs with the Remington Low Recoil slug, and it worked just fine.

These Remington low velocity slugs shoot well in my old Sauer/Daly and in my later Simson 90 (Merkel 95, essentially). They shoot so well I bought a case of them.

The wife and I both shot good sized pigs with those Remington low recoil slugs at @25 and 28 yards.
Both were hit just behind the shoulder [we try not to hit the shoulder, as it makes an excellent roast ].

Both slugs gave complete penetration.

Grenadiers H&H Paradox gun is a great envy of mine, it's just truly elegant in a round action. Just not affordable for me at the time. A Paradox gun is on my short list of the last guns I want in my collection. And I want an H&H.

I am sure that if someone had a high grade drilling like a JP Sauer or Merkel, and wanted it regulated, for about $1000-$1500 JJ Perodeaux would do it for them. He is the one person on this planet capable of reliably performing that tast.