Hello
I guess this would the best place to post this.

I'm interested in a Savage model 24F-12 with a 12ga and 30-30 bareels.

My question is are these guns accurate?

I will be taking it on a African trip for thick bush hunting like for duikers,birds etc.

Thanks for your help

I find the Savage 24F in 12 gauge to be both heavy and poorly balanced. It is not a combination gun that I would care to carry anywhere and most certainly not in Africa. If you can get by with a 20 gauge shotgun for your bird shooting, I would much prefer an older Savage 24V in 30-30/20 gauge, but again, it is not my 1st choice in a combination gun for Africa. Any good 7x57 or 8x57 over 16 gauge would seem like a better choice or a Winchester 101 Grand European combination gun in 7x57 or 30-06/12 gauge.

Jeff

I have one in 30-30 /20 gauge. and I think that it would be a very utilitarian and effective choice for use in Africa.

I have not shot mine much and just with the iron sights. I think I'll take it hunting next week end and let you know how it goes.

Frankly I'm getting a little tired of taking expensive guns to Africa and worrying about them all the way there and back. A Savage 24 in a take down case sounds like a wonderful idea and even the baggage gorilla's should have a hard time breaking it.

Keep us posted on how it works out.

Does it shoot both bbls to the sights with your hunting ammo? Every one of them i've fired wasn't regulated worth a beans...

DM

quote:

Originally posted by Wildlife Artist:

My question is are these guns accurate?

My 24V was .223/20 gauge, is now 6x45mm/20 gauge after reboring with 1:9.5 twist, a poor-man's Ultra 20. Before, the rifle and shotgun barrels didn't hit the same point of aim at 50 yards, but by happy accident are pretty close after the rebore job.

The rifle barrel on most combination guns will hit the same point of aim for about two shots, then when it heats up will try to expand more than the cold shotgun barrel and start shooting low.

I have a peep sight on the barrel with an aperture big enough to follow a duck, and a 2-7X Weaver in quick-release mounts.

Thanks for your input.

From what few combination and drilling prices I have seen I could pay for the whole hunt.

If any one can direct me to another brand and model please do so.

Thanks
Steve

Mr. Wildlife Artist,
Our Model 24 12ga/.30-30AI does not shoot to the same point of aim. We learned to compensate.
The rifle barrel is fairly accurate, group wise.
Best Wishes

Thanks for your help

interesting point. I took my 30-30/20 gauge out today and put a scope on it. Horizontal Dispersion was 1 to 2". but the vertical dispersion was 4 to 6". ???????

I finally figured out that the group would rapidly walk downward as the upper barrel heated up. I mean really rapidly.

Has any one else had this type of stringing with theirs.

quote:

Originally posted by Wildlife Artist:
Thanks for your input.

From what few combination and drilling prices I have seen I could pay for the whole hunt.

If any one can direct me to another brand and model please do so.

Thanks
Steve

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Numbe...n=0&page=0#Post85350

DM

mine is a 20/222 and makes a great truck gun for blasting crats in the ditch, but i wouldn't count on it for much more. africa trips deserve much more.

Ok this will be hars but I still have to say it, they suck.

Bold statement I know, but a Savage will not

shoot to the same POI with both barrels

stay adjusted regarding the rifled barrel

be trustworhty.

They are poorly balanced, stocked like intended for digging and the open sights are a joke.

If one has the cash to go to Africa and hunt, get a decent rifle.

This is my go to drilling.



You should get one or at least a Merkel or Saur like these ones,

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/content/community/gun...2916_mrkcape_haz.jsp





Any 12/20/16 gauge over or side a 7-8-9,3x57R will be a great thing for the african hunt.

Sure hope that you dont take offence but for a cape gun there are no others then the german brands.

Best regards Chris

quote:

Originally posted by Wildlife Artist:
Hello
I guess this would the best place to post this.

I'm interested in a Savage model 24F-12 with a 12ga and 30-30 bareels.

My question is are these guns accurate?

I will be taking it on a African trip for thick bush hunting like for duikers,birds etc.

Thanks for your help

Don't get me wrong, I like the older Savage 24s and currently have several of them. I don't like the newer Savage 24Fs in anything over 12 gauge, because they are so danged heavy.

In regard to the original question, I think that it is 1 thing to have a Savage 24v as a truck/barn/ranch/farm utility gun for shooting varmints in the U.S. and a completely different thing to carry the same gun in Africa, where you generally pay a fee for everything that you squeeze a trigger on.

My experience with the Savage 24s is that the 1st shot from the rifle barrel will generally shoot to the POA, however, subsequent shots from a heated barrel could be anywhere in a 6" circle. I have probably owned a couple dozen of these combination guns and have yet to have a centerfire version that would shoot under a 4 MOA group from a warm barrel. In the 24Vs, the 22 Hornet and 357 Magnum rifles shot the best groups from warm barrels, while the 222, 223, and 30-30 rifles got hotter and spread their shots more quickly. The only style of 24V that I haven't owned is the 357 Maximum, so I don't know how those do.

Jeff

That is a very interesting response. I guess that mine in not unusual. I wish that I had time to shoot it and let it cool completely and then shoot again.

I tried that the other day. It shot a 1 1/2" group but I am just tooooo impatient to wait 10 minutes between shots. on the other hand if it does shoot to POA inside of a 3" circle with all first shots it would seem to be very usable .

If all things go well I will need the gun only for special circumstances such as hunt duiker in some what thick bush.

I looked at the 24f because of cost. It is a butt ugly gun.

One of the members sent me a PM and gave me a link to a gun auction site in Germany and there was tons of combo's and drillings. I need to figure out how to import one and find one I can afford.The Euro is very high now.

No need to import anything.

You could get a Valmet / Tikka / FinnClassic
from http://doublegunhq.com/

They are on gunbroker a lot. The nice thing, is once you have the receiver, you can often pick up just barrel sets cheap.

You are not asking about a drilling. The gun you are talking about is known as a Cape Gun. Do a search on any of auction sites. There tons of them out there. Just don't get an old clunker. Make sure the rifled barrel is chambered for a modern round.

A cape gun with a pocket of buckshot and a pocket of birdshot is a very useful tool.

Pete

Els, I understand that patience thing. I can't wait that long between shots either, so I take a .22 with me whenever I go to the rifle range. I post two targets side by side, or I aim the .22 at a rock or whatever in the backstop when it's dry enough to show the hits and misses. That lets me get off a 3-shot group with the big rifle during a 20-minute session between cease-fires, and a fair amount of "trigger time" with the little gun.

Thanks that is a great idea! I really want to hunt with the savage. I think I will take another gun or two with me. I can shoot the M24 set up and shoot the other gun and when the 24 is completely cool try it again.

Wildlife Artist

I do not know what your budget is like, but I can say that the Blaser D 99's are excellent hunting guns, weather a regular drilling[D 99 or a double rifle drilling D 99 Duo.

The Blaser scope mounts go on and off the gun and maintain zero 100%.

If you want just a combo gun, ie one shotgun bbl and one rifle barrel look at the Blaser BBF 97.

I recommend the BBF 97 too if your budget will swing for it. Nothing else I've seen is comparable in quality.

In my experience the 24F is the most violently recoiling firearm I've ever fired, when a magnum shotshell is used. The stock geometry is all wrong. That being said, I love my 24-V, in 223/20 ga, and have never had accuracy problems, because I've never had to shoot more than once with the rifle barrel.
There are better guns for Africa, however. I wouldn't consider my Savage Africa material.
Walt

Gentlemen, there seems to be some misunderstanding in regard to the different combination guns here! First off there are several deferent names for the different configurations. All are combination guns, but all are not called the same names. In most cases the name indicated the number of barrels the fire has, drilling (three barrels), Verling, (four barrels). Then there are the names that indicate how the barrels are positioned on the firearm. These are (bock) meaning over/under, or stacked. Bush meaning (shotgun) and flinte meaning (rifle), so with that a BOCKBUSHFLINTE, is an over under shotgun rifle combination. With this type of combination gun, the properly built one always has the rifle barrel on the BOTTOM! This does not include the Savage combos!

Why is it better to have the rifle on the bottom?

quote:

Originally posted by Mikelravy:
Why is it better to have the rifle on the bottom?

Maybe so it shoots high instead of low as the rifle barrel warms up?

quote:

Originally posted by Mikelravy:
Why is it better to have the rifle on the bottom?

quote:

Maybe so it shoots high instead of low as the rifle barrel warms up?

TomP

These firearms are designed to be used for HUNTING, and the barrels are regulated to shoot to the regulation only from a cool barrel, or the second shot from that same barrel, not for a string of shots. The shotgun is not supposed to shoot to the same impact point as the rifle barrel. Some do, but that is not common. This is because each barrel has it’s own job to do, and they are different for each. The shot barrel should print a pattern at approximately 35 yds max, and the rifle barrels are usually regulated to shoot to POA at around 100 mtrs. Once in a while you will fid a cape gun, or in fact a combination gun of any kind that will place a slug close to the rifle barrel’s poa at 50, or 100 mtrs, but not often.

The rifle barrel stringing with the barrel heating up is correct, simply because the gun wasn’t made to shoot more than a couple of shots, starting with a cool barrel. If you are using this cape gun, or any combination gun for pass shooting at birds, and after you have fires several shotgun shells, and the shooter sees a deer, he wants, the rifle barrel is not going to shoot properly till the barrels cool. This is because the barrels are tied together, and heat warping of one barrel directly affects the other's poa.

Now to the savage combinations! They are not made properly in the first place, with the rifle barrel on top, and the shot barrel on the bottom. There are physical reasons for this, and has nothing to do with the looks of the gun. It doesn’t matter with cartridges like 22 lr or mag, or even some of the small cartridges like 22 hornet, and even the 222 Rem, but the larger the chambering becomes in the rifle barrel, the closer it needs to be to the CG (center of gravity) both horizontal, and vertical CGs, as the size of the cartridge goes up, the reverse thrust becomes more of a factor, and the rifle is stronger with the higher pressure cartridge deeper inside the action, and modifies the tendency of the action to spring open. This is why all well made combination guns are made with the shot barrel on the top and the rifle on the bottom. The shotgun shell has very low pressure, and is no problem in a top barrel.

The Savage combos are OK for the price, paid for them, but are not only butt-ugly, but are about as well balanced as a well made fence post, and as some one above stated, the iron sights are a joke. The scope mounting is even more ridiculous, on anything with more recoil that a 22 lr. These guns can be modified, in some cases, to be far more useful, but the cost of doing it for anyone who cannot do the work themselves, is prohibitive, to say the least. I have modified some of these little ugly irons over the years, with some acceptable success. On e was a little mod 24 based over/under 410 ga shotgun. I simple removed the shot barrels and replaced them with a pair of 218 bee chambered barrels, 18†long, and regulated them to shoot properly @ 100 yds. This made a very nice little pick-up gun for calling coyotes, and Bobcats. Then I took another of the little 410 ga doubles, and only removed the bottom barrel, and replaced it with another 218 bee barrel, to make a trapper special. My grandfather talked me out of that one to use on the ranch in a saddle scabbard. He never had much use for a pistol, so this little combo was just right for his use. The heat warping was not a problem for my grandfather, because he seldom fired more than one shot at anything he wanted to hit!

The Blaser D 99's have the rifle barrel on top, however they also lock up at the top.

I just got back from a week of hunting at my TX lease with my 308 D 99 Duo.

The more I use a Drilling the more I like them.

I have owned about 50 different combo guns along the way and have some nice ones. The very best buy I've found in a utilitarian combo is the Baikal 94 BBF. I have one in 12ga 3" and 7X57R that cuts a ragged hole with plain old S&B 173gr ammo. The gun functions well, but is anything but eye-candy. I have a Weaver K4 60-B on it, and it isn't light. I owned several Savage 24s in 12/30-30 and 20/30-30, and both shot OK. The Baikal is much better than the Savage for accuracy and ease of use.

Anymore, I would take the Baikal to Africa instead of my drillings or cape gun, as theft and security are a concern to me.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Now to the savage combinations! They are not made properly in the first place, with the rifle barrel on top, and the shot barrel on the bottom. There are physical reasons for this, and has nothing to do with the looks of the gun. It doesn’t matter with cartridges like 22 lr or mag, or even some of the small cartridges like 22 hornet, and even the 222 Rem, but the larger the chambering becomes in the rifle barrel, the closer it needs to be to the CG (center of gravity) both horizontal, and vertical CGs, as the size of the cartridge goes up, the reverse thrust becomes more of a factor, and the rifle is stronger with the higher pressure cartridge deeper inside the action, and modifies the tendency of the action to spring open. This is why all well made combination guns are made with the shot barrel on the top and the rifle on the bottom. The shotgun shell has very low pressure, and is no problem in a top barrel.

Ah, now I see. The Savage M24 rifle barrel is further from the hinge, and has more leverage to push the action towards 'open'. This was something I worried about when I had mine rebored, finally decided that if I stuck with the .223 case and a reasonably sized 6mm bullet, it would not be too big a change in back pressure on the action.

I have a Baikal IZH-94 in 12 over 6.5x55 that was the 2nd worst firearm that I've ever owned and the absolute worst new firearm that I've ever owned. Heavy, crude, junk. No more Baikals for me and I think that it is fair to say that friends don't let friends buy Russian trash!

Jeff

Mine has functioned perfectly for the last 3 1/2 years and out shoots many of my high priced pedigree guns.

You say yours was junk. That is pretty general. What are the specifics? They don't have a lot of esthetics, but I have yet to have a problem with mine, and it shoots as well as many of my bolt rifles.

A friend bought one, also, in 12 & 30-06. He has used the hell out of it in SE Alaska and loves the gun.

I'm curious as to what in particular didn't work correctly with yours?

The triggers would lock up, the safety wouldn't work all of the time, the rifle barrel couldn't be regulated, it was heavy, it was crudely made, etc. Junk from my POV.

Jeff

Jeff,

I'm sorry to hear that. Mine and my friend's have been sturdy and accurate, but heavy and not exactly beautiful.

I had a Browning Superposed Pigeon Grade Superlight 20ga once that was nothing but problems, satcked over & under. If your Baikal had worked out as well as ours have, you would have a great "truck gun".

The only non-European built combination guns that I thought were pretty good were the Winchester 101 Grand European o/u doubles and combis. A friend of mine has, or had, 3 of them in 12/9.3x74R, 9.3x74R, and 12/7x57R.

If you're interested, I'll bet the the guy who bought that dog IZH-94 would be willing to sell it for $300 plus the shipping. He keeps asking me if I'll buy it back and I keep trying to keep a straight face when I politely say "no thanks".

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by 260remguy:
The only non-European built combination guns that I thought were pretty good were the Winchester 101 Grand European o/u doubles and combis. A friend of mine has, or had, 3 of them in 12/9.3x74R, 9.3x74R, and 12/7x57R.


Jeff

The winchester Grand Europeans were made in Japan, as were the Winchester 101 shotguns. The double rifle made on the 101 action called the Grand European had their barrels soldered together in a jig,rather than the treditional way of solder, shoot, re-solder, shoot, till they barrels shoot together. In my experience, they do not regulate at all, in most cases.

I have one of these chambered for 9.3X74R/9.3X74R and though each barrel will shoot a 3 shot, 3/4" group at 50 yds, the top barrel shoot 4" to right of aim, and the bottom barrel bottom barrel shoot it's group 4" to the left of point of aim, and at 100 yds, forget it!! The rifle is going to take a trip to JJ at Champlin's to be regulated, as we speak.

This is common with the Winchester Grand European double rifles! When one considers the things go for $3500 range, and then has to have another $600 minimum, spent on them to make them shoot properly, it makes more sense to simply buy a better rifle to begin with!

Lee LeBas won't even bother with them, and he regulates DRs for H&H and Kreighoff factories, when they have problem guns here in the US.

The older smaller frame Savages are great hunting guns, but don't offer much refinement for the snooty. I have a 24C Campers companion 20 Gauge/ 22LR. The 20 gauge shoots into 3 inches at 75 yards with slugs and the 22LR does as well at 100 yards. I find the sites good and the 22 hits to Point of Aim and the 20 Gauge shoots lower but you can hold the front site higher to compensate.

I have an ACE insert in 30-30 which is rotated until the point of aim is the same as the 22LR barrel. Therefore in one 20" break down package I have a 22LR, a 20 Gauge and a 30-30. Pretty versatile.