I finally took the plunge and bought a drilling that was marked down at a Scheel's store in Minnesota. It's a Merkel made in 1924. 16X16 over 30/30.
I have ordered a chamber gauge to make sure the chambers are 2 3/4 before loading and shooting it. The rifle barrel is marked "30X30" which is, I am assuming, 30/30 Winchester. Can anyone confirm this? It also says "7.6 mm" with the number "52" below this. This thing has a lot of markings and numbers on the block!
Can anyone confirm that this is a 30/30 Winchester? The shop listed it as such, but I'd like outside confirmation. Also, the rifle barrel is marked "N 12gr" which must be some kind of proof.
I measured the muzzles at .639 and .664, which should be full and more or less improved cylinder. Would this be typical? I can't discern any choke markings amongst all the characters, but both sides of the block have a 16 in a circle, and are also marked "16/1", I am not sure what that means. The barrels are marked "nitro." By 1924, I would think so.
The gun has import markings, "A.F. Stoeger, New York" and "Made in Germany" on the rib. Which would, I think, be consistant with an American rifle chambering.
Everything works. The three cocking indicators and automatic rear sight are a treat! So is the front set trigger. There is no provision for a scope. Except for mostly non-existant case colors on the nicely engraved receiver, it's pretty minty for an 84 year old gun. There are case colors on the hidden areas, but not much else. Not unusual in a gun of this age, I think.
I think I did OK on it. The original price marked was $4695, and was marked down to $3595. They took $3295 for it. It had been there awhile. Reality must have set in.
I did email Merkel in Germany, but all they could give me was the year of manufacture. They said it was a 141 Anson drilling, but as this is a designation for a double rifle, I'm guessing they meant 142, which is the Anson drilling model number according to the blue book.
Any thoughts on the import markings and American chambering as to collector value? To me , it's a positive since I plan to use it.
Any input would be appreciated, as I'm not finding much with Google.

Marty,

Man! ...are you in trouble now! "Three barrels" is adicting, and now you are going to be hooked.

As a Stoeger gun, it can very well be a 16/30-30. It may also have been a 9,3X72R that has been sleeved...very common to find. In any event, you have something special. Have years of good hunting with your drilling, Marty.

Marty, sounds like you have a real nice gun. If nothing else, buying a drilling that uses ammo you can buy at Bass Pro Shop is something of a coup!

7,6x52R is the german designation for .30-30 (the case is 52 mm long, and R means rimmed), so the gun was originally chambered in .30-30. Only a chamber cast will tell you if it has been rechambered but, since it has apparently spent its life in the USA, I doubt that it has.

I'll bet that gun handles like a quail gun. You did well.

Also, I think the "12 gr" marking is the bullet weight in grams. Since a gram is about 15.43 grains, it appears your rifle was regulated/sighted in for a fairly heavy bullet of about 185 grains.

Remember these older drillings prefer, papper hulls and felt wads, if one shoots modern loads in them they either shoot tighter than H Clintons ass or they throw really poor patterns.

Test fire as always.

A thuuddy-thudy is not a bad rifled barrel, you should be so happy.

Best regards Chris

Thanks for the info. I had suspected that 7.6x52 might mean 30/30. I had not considered the 12gr to be a bullet weight, that makes sense. Paper hulls was not something I had considered, test firing should be informative, once I get my chamber gauge from Brownell's. What's a good source for these shells? Midway has some shorter 16 ga ammo, but they don't specify hull material. Their 2 5/8 is something called B&P classic, and 2 1/2 Gamebore.
Besides having wanted a drilling for years, and finding a nice one at a pretty fair price, the rifle chambering is what tipped me over the edge. Not that 30/30 is my favorite cartridge, but it's one I can live with that is readily available. Like at a gas station. I thought it might be good for resale someday, as well. The last thing I need is yet another cartridge to reload. Just getting lazy.
How are these guns typically choked?

Marty,

I think it was a very good deal for you.
Most of your questions are anwered.

7,6x52R is the 30/30 called in Germany.
This cartridge was before WW2 popular in Germany.
12gr (means Gramm) ist the bullet weigh the gun is tested.
The gauge will be 16/65 so you can also shoots ammo with
the 16/67,5 length.
Hope the ammo is easy to find in the US, in Europe there are no problems,
but its more expensive than the 12.

Have fun with it


Burkhard

The chokes on drillings are typically tighter than a bull's anus in fly season. However, full and improved is a nearly perfect all-around choking combination. The gun could have been made that way, or some hunter had the choke opened at some time in this gun's 80+ year history.

Try polywad's web site for short cartridges, if that is what you need. Ballistic Products has short shells too, last I looked. Or, you can get adapters to shoot 20 ga. shells in 16 ga. chambers. I have a pair of Lil' Skeeters to shoot 20 ga in a 12 ga double, and they pattern 7/8 oz 20 ga loads just like 7/8 oz 12 ga loads.

I wouldn't worry about paper hulls. Try the gun with the ammo that is available, and consider having the tight choke opened a skosh if it needs it. You can get that done for $25-$50 which is a lot easier than looking for exotic ammo.

I have an original red and yellow Kynoch box in front of me. Marked .30/30 Winchester (7.62 x 51R). I purchased these in Scotland many years ago, I fired the shells in a Marlin, cases are long gone, headstamped .30/30 Knoch if I remember correctly.

Maybe .30/30 called 7.62 x 52R in Germany but not in England at that time.

I was in a local gun store last fall and noted a drilling on their rack priced at $1750. When I picked it up I saw that it was a rather nice Merkel in 16 x 16 x 8x57R. Gun had seen some use but it had the action nicely engraved with the traditinal game scenes and had a horn trigger guard, butt plate and forearm tip inlay. The dealer saw me examining the gun and said he would take $1600 for it so I whipped out the check book figuring I couldn't go wrong on such a nice piece. I had wanted a drilling for decades but never picked one up due to the relatively high cost.

Examining the gun after I got home I noted on the extractor for the shotgun barrel that they were amrked "65" apparently for the 2 5/8' chambers. I was able to confirm the chamber length without a gage by carefully sliding a wooden dowel along the inside of the chamber wall and noting when it hit the forcing cone. I'll handload the shorter shels or perhaps have it re-chambered.

The rifle barrel is marked 8x57 J.R. and 7,8mm with 57 underneath. I'm assuming until I can slug the bore that this ia .319 rather than the .323 bore. In any event I'll handland for the rifle; I still have a 100 or so .319 bullets I've saved for years. The bullets made for the .32 Spl. should work well if it turns out to be a S bore. Cast bullets are another option regardless of the bore size and should be adequate for deer sized game back in the southeast US.

Best I can tell from the proof marks the gun was made in the late 40s or early 50's. I have not found any marking that appear to indicate a date. I'm not certain why the rifle barrel would be the J rather than the later S bore unless it was intended to be used with tlower powered loads. Use with lower power loads seems appropriate as the gun the gun is not a very heavy; it feels like a nice double shotgun.

I been trying to find the email address for Merkel - if you can post this Marty it would be greatly appreciated. I'll also post what I find out if anyone is interested.

The set trigger on the gun is also not functioning. I'd like to find someone qualfied to fix this one problem. Will Merkel still work on these older guns or can anyone recommend someone else qualified?

I had never owned a Merkel gun before but I continue to be impressed by the workamnship and fit and finish on this driling. For example the screw heads on the actions and the metal to metal joints are almost invisiable. The barrels are even nicely finished under the forearm and the three screw heads inside the forearm are engraved and indexed - a real tough of class.




PORTIONS OF THE ORGINAL QUOTE OMMITTED;

quote:

Originally posted by Marty:
I finally took the plunge and bought a drilling that was marked down at a Scheel's store in Minnesota. It's a Merkel made in 1924.

I have ordered a chamber gauge to make sure the chambers are 2 3/4 before loading and shooting it.

I did email Merkel in Germany, but all they could give me was the year of manufacture. .

http://www.merkel-waffen.de is the website feor Merkel. If you enter the "English" side and click on the contact button, you're in. I got a reply in English from a woman named Bettina Sokolowsky in a matter of hours!
I also contacted from http://www.merkel-usa.com but have heard nothing back.
Sounds like a great buy on your drilling!
You may already know this, but the set trigger doesn't function as a double set trigger. You push the front trigger forward to set it.
Also, mine carries amongst all the other markings, "5/24" which I believe means it was proofed in May, 1924. You may be able to discern the date of manufacture from this. On mine, this appears on the left side of the rifle barrel, just forward of the lump.
Where, exactly, did you find the "65" denoting chamber length? I haven't been able to fing anything like that?

tv,

You can shoot regular 2 3/4" low base shells in the gun and reload with 32 Spl bullets just as it is. Always be in mind that you need to use low pressure loads in older drillings. They weren't made for our modern ammo, and they had about everything shaved to the limit to save weight.

There are bullets around for the J bore guns, as well as Sellier & Bellot ammo, which regulates amazingly well for any JR I have tried. S&B tried to duplicate the "average" 8X57JR older loadings, and they did a good job. Try Natchezz Shooter's Supply for ammo and Hawk Bullets for .318 bullets of various weights.

As to the 32 Spl bullets...they work just fine if you can figure our a regulated loading for your gun. I suggest a low velocity load to regulate it, as you are using a 26gr lighter bullet and want velocities down to compensate.

I wish I had found that Merkel instead of you.

tv,

OH...as to the set trigger. There should be a very small screw under the front trigger. Tighten it a tad, or loosen it a tad.

Marty-

Thanks for the links to Merkel - I'll shot them some emails and post what I find out from them. I suspect the US office isn't interested in anything but the new stuff they sell. Wish I was going to the SHOT Show next month to talk to them.

Thw "65" marking is actually on the face or breech end of the the shotgun barrel extractor right over the top edge of the rifle barrel chamber. The barrels themselves have a 16 in a circle then a 16/1 underneath the 16 in the circle. There are nitro proofs of course also.

Other than the caliber markings, proofs and serial nos. the only other markings I find on the barrels are "334" just ahead of the forward lug. This doesn't appear to be a date but guess it could be - I'll find out from Merkel.

I'm familiar with the set trigger but assummed the worse when the it didn't work as it there were some slight signs that the trigger plate had been removed at some time. I dug out my jeweler's screwdriver and backed the screw out and what-do-ya-know - it worked! Thanks for the encouragement.

I dug up a military 8mm round with a tappered bullet and tried it on the muzzle of the drilling and of a K98 I had laying around. The bullet went in around the same distance on both barrels so I may have a S bore. I'll keep my fingers crossed.

Now all I have to do is to load up some shells and head down to the range. it's around 6 deg out today - I'm in Alaska - so i'll wait until it warms up a bit.

Thanks to everyone for the info and encouragement. As you can see I'm new to this forum but I'll certainly be back!

quote:

Originally posted by Marty:

Where, exactly, did you find the "65" denoting chamber length? I haven't been able to fing anything like that?

Your bore is probably .320-.321, as is common for the drillings in 8X57JR, and the 334 is most likely the proof date, March 1934. If it says 7.8mm on the unserside, it is "J" bore gun. Wanna sell it...

tv-
Welcome to the forum! AR is a wonderful resource. This is my first visit to the combo gun forum. I think you'll find other forums here full of really helpful and knowledgable folks.
My extractor bears no markings. I find the number "531" right under what I believe to be a date code, sounds analogous to the "334" on yours.
I've had this guy apart a number of times today, and I noticed something I thought I should ask after. I put snap caps in all three barrels, so I could dry fire safely. Due to the geometry of the receiver, when the gun is in the uncocked condition, the rifle firing pin impinges on the base of the snap cap, making the rifle stiff to open and gouging the cap. I am sure the same thing would happen to a brass case when fired. The aluminum snap cap is certainly a sacrificial part, but could this be causing damage?
We actually got above freezing today, but back to -16 Tuesday night.
What is the "S" and "J" bore stuff about?

"J or I" is .318 "S" is .323...

The German I looks like a J; it stands for Infantry in German. The early 8mm rifles were .318 bore.

There is a claw-mounted scoped drilling 16/8x57JR (.318 bore) in decent shape (very good to exc. bores) at Pickett Weaponry in Newberry, Florida....that they have been trying to peddle for many months...and although (I think) they have a 1700. tag on it....they will probably accept 1200.

Those among you who love to reload may be interested in this idea: Ross Seyfried paper-patches .308 bullets for his .318 rifles.

Marty:

Given the age, your gun is probably chambered for 65mm (2-1/2 inch) shells. It should have "16/65" stamped on the shotgun barrel flats if it is. Ammo is easily available that is made for these old guns. Good sources are Ballistic Products, Estate Cartridge, Westley Richards, and Polywad. Prices tend to run around $8 to $12 for a box of 25 shells.

Have fun.

Dave

I got my reply back from Merkel swiftly. It read:

We refer to your inquiry and thank you for your interest in the products of our company. We could find out that your Anson Drilling with serial number 217xx is model 144 and was manufactured in 1934. The following information is available, too:


Calibre = 16/8x57IR

Anson Deeley action with Greener lock

Engravings = fine game scenes/ grey

Best regards

Bettina Sokolowski


So now i know a few things for sure. I also dug out my copy of "The Standard Directory of Proof Marks" by Wirnsberger and knowing the date found the right information- the proof marks on my gun fall under the 1912 law which was changed again in 1939. According to the book the 3 or 4 digit code does identify the month and date of proof but apparetnly does not have to be with the proof marks on the barrel - that is what threw me off.

Thanks everyone for all the help! Weather permitting I'll go down to the range and try the rifle barrel - haven't got any 16 ga shells yet. I'll post the results of my trial. If they are good I'll have to start shopping for drilling no. 2

Gun store has a couple of other non-major brand drilling but they want around $2500 for them. I'm out of touch with what a decent shootable drilling goes for now days.

I had not thought of that one! Most of my .30 cal bullets cast out a .309 - .311 so that should be about right with one or two wraps of good bond or bank note paper.

quote:

Originally posted by carlos111:
Those among you who love to reload may be interested in this idea: Ross Seyfried paper-patches .308 bullets for his .318 rifles.

This is much easier...

http://www.hawkbullets.com/Pricelist.htm

http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm?viewfrom=49&catid=92&step=2

Luv2:
Thanks for links....I have been buying .318 bullets from Germany....but YOUR info is perfect!
Alex

And, THANK YOU for the heads up re: the drilling. I called the shop and will be buying it, pending photos.

I just shot the rifle barrel on my Merkel, and it is fun! Just some quick and dirty shots with factory 170 and 150 grain pills, but all in the 10 inch circle at 100 yards. This was actually better than I expected to do initially with the somewhat rudimentary rear sight. It seems to want a six o'clock hold with these rounds. Thanks to everyone for your input.
I did put it on my table at my local gun show this weekend, but priced it high because I really wanted to show it rather than sell it.

My chamber gauge confirms the 2.5 inch chambers. I'm going to order some shells from Polywad. I see some skeet targets in my immediate future.

Marty, how about an update? I'd love to own one of those guns but I already own a Valmet system. It is not as glitzy as a drilling in my mind, but quite useful. I am thinking about a 8x57 load with a Nosler 200 gr partition for such a gun as yours, in a moderate velocity.
good luck. Packy

Sorry, not much to update yet. Spring has been kind of slow here in South Dakota this year, it's just warming up now. Well, cold again now for the next couple of days.
Thanks for reminding me though. I still need to get some 2.5 inch shells!

I looked at and thought long and hard about buying that drilling at the St Cloud Sheel's store.

It is a very nice gun. I really liked the barrel length being longer than most drillings and the lack of a cheek piece since I'm a lefty.

Almost bought it myself a couple times over the past year.

IMHO - Best source for 16 ga 2 1/2" shotgun shells is RST.

http://www.rstshells.com/

Alex & Morris have a great variety of fine shooting loads available, even some non-tox that are safe to shoot in your drilling for locations or game that require it.

Enjoy it.

Update-
I finally got my drilling and PolyWad doublewide shells to the skeet range near my Wisconsin cabin.
I tried a round of trap, and shot abysmally. I went over to the skeet towers, and that gun just sings with these rounds. The spreader wad makes even the full choke barrel work when shooting doubles. The second round just got better.
I broke the first ten targets and ended up shooting a 21. I am NOT a good skeet shooter.
These are low pressure rounds appropriate for older guns, and they really work. I will definitely be hunting that gun this fall!

Go out and play...have fun...

Good report, Marty, some good shooting to, now go out and hunt with it, as intended.

Best regards Chris

Did I miss the pictures? It was good to hear of some success on skeet. Packy

Gentlemen, you are discussing a firearm, and cartridge, and shot shell that is one of my all time favorite combinations. I have owned many German made rifle, both double rifles, single shots, and drillings with 16 ga barrels. Today I own a H. Berella cape gun that started life as an 8X57 JR (.318 bore),on the right barrel, and a 16 ga 2 5/8" shot barrel on the left. It is a side lock hammer gun. The shot barrel I had re-chambered for 2 3/4" shotsghells, and the VERY tight choke, I had opened to modified so I could use modern shot-cup shells, and Brenneke slugs. That was the perfect modifications for a gun of this type, to make it a very usable firearm for hunting in today's hunting fields, and problems with traveling with firearms today.

How did the mods work? Well, let me just say I paid $105 for that gun because nobody had .318 diameter bullets, and the brass was a nightmare to find in 1965! However, $5K would not buy this cape gun from me today.

Sellier and Bellow makes very fine factory ammo, reasonably priced. Hawk makes .318 bullets for handloading, and all 8X57JR barrels are regulated for the .318" dia, of 196 gr weight.

This cape gun will print the 196 gr bullets right on the sights at 100 yds, and will put a brenneke slug right beside that rifle bullet also at 100 yds. The shot barrel was way too tight as made but is deadly on dove and quail at 35 yds, and with BB size shot is the bell that tolls for a turkey at 35 yds as well, after the mods.

This cape gun has taken Black bear, muledeer, elk, whitetail, moose, caribou, and wild boar like the hammer of Thor!

With the few well done mods, any cape gun, or drilling with these two cartridges will serve well any hunter who wants a wel made firearm that can do it all in North America.

................Marty, congratulations on your find of a very capable hunting gun, you will never regret it!